Colecovision vs 7800 vs 5200

[Jinks]

 

 

In Canada? I had an SMS and knew only a couple of others who had them. A few for sure, but only three or four others. Everyone and their dog had the NES. A few people had the SMS in my experience. Many more got the genesis

Of the ten people i knew who gamed it was 50/50..most moved onto tandy 1000 quest games by late 80's tho.

[Trebor]

Of the ten people i knew who gamed it was 50/50..most moved onto tandy 1000 quest games by late 80's tho.

 

Jeez, now we're really going to go off topic.

 

By Tandy 1000 quest games, I am presuming you mean Sierra and Lucasfilm graphical adventures.

That Tandy 1000 sounded and looked awesome* compared to my CGA/Composite PC-Speaker Turbo XT-8088 (Switch 4.77 to 10 MHz)

 

King's Quest I-IV

Space Quest I-III

Leisure Suit Larry

Police Quest

Maniac Mansion

Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade

Gold Rush!

Loom

The Black Cauldron

Hero's Quest (Sued for copyright and later changes to Hero's Quest - Yes I have both versions)

Monkey Island

Zak McKracken and the Alien Mindbenders

 

...And more...Some of my most favorite and memorable games of all time.

 

Of course there were more games from other genres that just rocked on my setup - Starflight and Wasteland were simply amazing during that same period and fully supported by Composite CGA so I didn't have to settle for just 4 colors (RGB).

 

Thankfully we have DOSBox to keep it all still alive and well (ScummVM ain't to shabby either).

 

*Of course once I upgraded to a Pentium 100 MHz system, Ensoniq Soundscape card, and ATi Mach64 graphics card, I played everything all over again (And again, and again...) and it made the Tandy seem not so impressive anymore

[KevinMos3]

BTW, for those who have played or will play "Quest for the Golden Chalice": the game has much more to it than you'd think. I don't want to give away too much, but any 2600 Adventure fan should know what to do.

[+wood_jl]

AA user Yurkie can do some SERIOUS justice to the Colecovision and 7800 controllers. I know because I have them, and I only have them after hearing the appreciation of others. These are must-have mods that *actually sort-of "fix" these normally-terrible controllers, in my opinon. Perfection? Not quite. Improved enough to finally make the system fun enough for me to consider them "fixed" (or at least mostly-so)? Yes, quite. This should be considered in any "debate" about the systems.

 

I don't see how any debate about CV vs 7800 vs 5200 could not include the 400; they play the same damn games, same sound, same colors, same everything. The CV and the 7800 are at least different enough to be disparate considerations. I love how the counter to 5200 criticism is always that "you didn't play one" or "read it on the internet." I consider the opinions of 400/800 owners - who did own them prior to 5200 release - to be quite the opposite.

[Jinks]

 

 

Jeez, now we're really going to go off topic.

 

By Tandy 1000 quest games, I am presuming you mean Sierra and Lucasfilm graphical adventures.

That Tandy 1000 sounded and looked awesome* compared to my CGA/Composite PC-Speaker Turbo XT-8088 (Switch 4.77 to 10 MHz)

 

King's Quest I-IV

Space Quest I-III

Leisure Suit Larry

Police Quest

Maniac Mansion

Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade

Gold Rush!

Loom

The Black Cauldron

Hero's Quest (Sued for copyright and later changes to Hero's Quest - Yes I have both versions)

Monkey Island

Zak McKracken and the Alien Mindbenders

 

...And more...Some of my most favorite and memorable games of all time.

 

Of course there were more games from other genres that just rocked on my setup - Starflight and Wasteland were simply amazing during that same period and fully supported by Composite CGA so I didn't have to settle for just 4 colors (RGB).

 

Thankfully we have DOSBox to keep it all still alive and well (ScummVM ain't to shabby either).

 

*Of course once I upgraded to a Pentium 100 MHz system, Ensoniq Soundscape card, and ATi Mach64 graphics card, I played everything all over again (And again, and again...) and it made the Tandy seem not so impressive anymore

My tandy was a sl2 and did not have a hard drive so later games i was screwed. it was 16 color ega i think and 3 channel sound. I remember space quest 3 when the guy talked in the beginning. I nearly pissed my pants. I later tried them on a compaq with win 95 kings quest 1 and had to set speed to slowest so would not move thru all the screens and fall in the water and get eaten by crocks.. those were the days.. Heros quest was awesome. never had part 2. I wish I woulda had vga and sound blaster card..

Edited July 16, 2013 by Jinks

[DracIsBack]

Of the ten people i knew who gamed it was 50/50..most moved onto tandy 1000 quest games by late 80's tho.

 

Guess our experience was quite different. Almost everyone I knew had an NES, with a couple that had SMS.

[Trebor]

AA user Yurkie can do some SERIOUS justice to the Colecovision and 7800 controllers.

 

Another 100% Agree - I mentioned it earlier in the thread and it deserves another:

 

7800 Controller mod here: http://atariage.com/...ries-july-2013/

ColecoVision controller mod here: http://atariage.com/...ales-july-2013/

 

I am lucky enough to have obtained both mods (In fact a complete system mod for both systems), and his work is nothing short of excellence. I can't recommend Yurkie enough.

[Trebor]

My tandy was a sl2 and did not have a hard drive so later games i was screwed.

 

I had dual 5 1/4" drives in my XT - No hard drive. King's Quest IV was something like 9 disks with each screen load time of ~20-30 seconds, all with the phenominal PC Speaker Sound and 4 color CGA graphics.

 

My friend had a Tandy 1000 with one 5 1/4" drive. Load times were nearly the same, but man that Tandy 3-channel sound and 16-color graphics; especially compared to my PC Speaker* and 4 color CGA just blew me away.

 

*Some great stuff was done just having PC Speaker sound with games like CrimeWave and CrackDown (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RealSound) ...

 

It's a very much stretched analogy to using only TIA in the 7800. It can sound like crap, or relatively impressive (Princess Rescue and DK VCS).

 

See, I'm trying to get it back to board appropriate.

[DracIsBack]

I had dual 5 1/4" drives in my XT - No hard drive. King's Quest IV was something like 9 disks with each screen load time of ~20-30 seconds, all with the phenominal PC Speaker Sound and 4 color CGA graphics.

 

Hehehe - that was pretty awful wasn't it? That was our first computer too, though we had a weeny 30 meg hard drive as well. I had one friend with an Amiga and one friend with an Atari ST ... they used to have lots of fun about my computer's multimedia capabilities. They used to argue back and forth amongs themselves about their computers, by making fun of my XT was their common, united ground. :-) That, and my other buddy that had a Mac 512. They liked picking on him even more. :-)

 

 

 

 

It's a very much stretched analogy to using only TIA in the 7800. It can sound like crap, or relatively impressive (Princess Rescue and DK VCS).

 

Always thought California Games was a great example of good TIA music.

[gamecat80]

I personally think there isn't a huge difference between the ColecoVision, 7800, and 5200 graphics. The ColecoVision has a certain refined quality to it that the Atari systems lack, whether it is sound (7800) or controls (5200), or something else. No system is perfect. I just have the most overall fun playing my CV out of my retro systems. I enjoy my 7800, but I don't have nearly as many games for it, and the sound is.......bleh................

I did enjoy playing my 5200, but it finally crapped out on me a few weeks ago

 

One good way to compare systems is looking for same games on the systems. Compare Jungle Hunt on the ColecoVision and 5200.

The 5200 version has more detailing of the riverbed and tree canopy, but the CV version has much smoother animation/movement and the sprites are noticeably more rounded. The 5200 sprites always look slightly blocky in comparison.

 

Everyone talks about the good 5200 POKEY sound, but I think the CV TI soundchip is comparable. The 7800 sounds crude and harsh in comparison. Impossible Mission and DK are the worst sound offenders, imo But non-POKEY games like Food Fight and Dig Dug have very decent sound, so I think part of it HAS to be the programmers :!:

Edited July 24, 2013 by gamecat80

[atarian63]

You're absolutely right!

Now, how much do you want to get rid of this crap?

 

 

On a more serious note, I'm giving my experience with the controllers.

 

7800 --> I'm very lucky because I got the system recently. So I don't have to deal with the pro-line painfull joystick. I'm glad I bought from Golden.Axe a modded nes and advanced nes controller.

If I had to play with the original controller, I would hate the experience. (Well I would still love Crazy Brix from Bob )

 

5200 --> I decided to NOT get this one exactly due to the a really bad controller. Living outside America I can't afford to import parts and new controllers to replace them that often (not to mention 4 months waiting for international shipping).

Once I got a good offer here, the guy had 9 controllers! Why 9 controllers? Certainly many with problems as he told me later.

I like the 7800 controller just not very robust,get a wico bat

[DracIsBack]

I personally think there isn't a huge difference between the ColecoVision, 7800, and 5200 graphics.

 

I too think the Colecovision can be made to do some impressive stuff. It really isn't that much older than the NES, 7800 or SMS ... and certainly a fair bit newer than the 2600 and Intellivision. The biggest weaknesses I've found with it visually are the limited colors and the lack of hardware scrolling. Games can seem much less colorful and 'jerky', though graphics are detailed well enough. First time I saw SMURF RESCUE, I was pretty blown away back in the day

[gamecat80]

I too think the Colecovision can be made to do some impressive stuff. It really isn't that much older than the NES, 7800 or SMS ... and certainly a fair bit newer than the 2600 and Intellivision. The biggest weaknesses I've found with it visually are the limited colors and the lack of hardware scrolling. Games can seem much less colorful and 'jerky', though graphics are detailed well enough. First time I saw SMURF RESCUE, I was pretty blown away back in the day

 

I actually like the solid colors on the CV - it gives it a very "clean" look graphically. But I do see what you are talking about. Some games would look nicer with more color shadings.

It's interesting you mention the scrolling. That's why I mentioned Jungle Hunt animation. I know animation and scrolling aren't the same, but just wanted to point it out. I'm a big fan of smooth animation. The crocodiles and vine movements and the jumping in that game are butter-smooth on the CV. The "rounded" sprites on the CV Jungle Hunt almost look like colored-paper cut outs "floating" on screen from a distance. On the 5200 version, those movements are jerky. CV Smurf Rescue has smooth jumping too as well as countless other games. But you are right - CV games like Zaxxon and Cosmic Avenger have jerky scrolling.

 

The thing I like about the 7800 is that it really never flickers or slows down. That is the strong point of the 7800. Animation can be butter-smooth on the 7800 (Winter Games, Ballblazer, etc.) Just wish the sound was better on the 7800 IMO, there is no excuse for not including POKEY on the 7800 - Atari was being TOO cheap. I don't think it would have cost them much more and they still would have made a good profit!

[Trebor]

The thing I like about the 7800 is that it really never flickers or slows down.

 

I wouldn't say it "never" flickers or slows down, but is better at handling 'flicker' and slow down with multiple objects on the screen than the NES. Mentioned it a couple of times recently, I absolutely love Rygar on the NES, but there's graphic flicker galore throughout the game and in many other NES titles. That was one of the strong points of the MARIA graphics chip on the 7800, besides its relatively large available colors to utilize, which the NES was also weaker in handling with its smaller color palette.

[almightytodd]

TIA could sound better for games if it was done right and not rushed for games like Donkey Kong:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVPDkQl7Nl0

 

Compare 2600 DK VCS sound choices to original 7800 Donkey Kong and the difference is night and day.

 

Not only that, the original VCS was designed to be in STEREO. The plan was to put an audio amplifier and speakers in the game unit and send only video to the television signal. Some of the original VCS games were programmed with that in mind. For example, the Tank games in "Combat" have the sound for the tank on the right going to the right speaker, and the tank on the left goes to the left speaker.

 

Joe has taken advantage of these facts in his programming of DK VCS, sending the same sounds to each side but with a slight delay, causing a really cool "echo" effect. Put on some headphones and watch this video:

 

[RickR]

^ That VCS Donkey Kong looks spectacular. Maybe we should include the VCS in this discussion!

[7800]

WOW! Where the heck did that DK VCS come from?? Amazing! Even the original 2600 had so much untapped potential.

 

Is this homebrew still a work in progress? Looks like a few things need fixin' otherwise wow... just wow!

[Greg2600]

WOW! Where the heck did that DK VCS come from?? Amazing! Even the original 2600 had so much untapped potential.

 

Is this homebrew still a work in progress? Looks like a few things need fixin' otherwise wow... just wow!

 

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/206497-dk-vcs/

 

It's been here all along!

 

Not only that, the original VCS was designed to be in STEREO. The plan was to put an audio amplifier and speakers in the game unit and send only video to the television signal. Some of the original VCS games were programmed with that in mind. For example, the Tank games in "Combat" have the sound for the tank on the right going to the right speaker, and the tank on the left goes to the left speaker.

 

Joe has taken advantage of these facts in his programming of DK VCS, sending the same sounds to each side but with a slight delay, causing a really cool "echo" effect. Put on some headphones and watch this video:

 

Hmm, no wonder the 2600's had what looks like a vent hidden on the cover for a speaker!

[7800]

Just played it... Very Cool!

[+darryl1970]

Just to add a different perspective. I love the 2600, 5200, Colecovision, and 7800, but I haven't always felt that way. I have my pet peeves about each, except the 2600. If the 2600 doesn't get a free pass for the best start up cartridge system, it gets a pass because it is still blowing my mind what it is capable of today.

 

5200 -- Was really a great machine. In some ways, I wish it was less tinkered with (like the 65XE). However, then I would have been stuck with inferior versions of Centipede, Dig Dug, Pac-Man (no intermissions), and probably a few others that have slipped my mind. On the FLIP side, backward compatibility with the computers would have given the 5200 a superior version of Donkey Kong, and it would have propelled it over the Colecovision. I LOVED the 5200 controllers in theory. I say in theory, because they didn't hold up. If they had been reliable, I could defend them. Games like Realsports Baseball wouldn't have been as AWESOME without the 5200 controllers. When it comes to the 7800, I resented it (yet still wanted one... I'll explain below). I think reworking the 5200 controllers and focusing on pushing that system would have sold it. I feel that Atari didn't push the 5200 enough. They waited too late in the game to start releasing exclusive games like Space Dungeon. Why not make Pengo and Mario Bros exclusive. They were awesome ports. It's sad that they pulled the plug just when the 5200 was picking up steam. Berzerk with voice, Baseball with voice and the ability to control multiple players (thanks to analog and keypad), and Mario Bros with more accurate animation than the NES version -- very impressive!

 

Colecovision -- I thought the Colecovision had some great games. Being a 5200 fan, I was slightly jealous of the finer horizontal pixel resolution of the sprites. I thought the sound was apples-oranges between the two systems. They had some great games. However, I thought their programmers were lazy. Donkey Kong was seriously glitchy. I felt Coleco was misleading in their box artwork. I was highly upset that they claimed arcade perfect, but didn't deliver. They advertised fireballs on the ramps screen, but didn't deliver. Kong was even beating his chest on the Colecovision box. Games like Mr. Do were atrocious. The gameplay was totally lacking gameplay elements that made the game fun. Google DataEast's version for the Atari 8-bit computers and see what the 5200 could have released. I see the potential of Colecovision. I didn't have any issues with the controllers back in the day, other than feeling a little cheap. The games felt a slightly sluggish compared to the 5200.

 

Interesting Note: Mr. Do was very wrong from a gameplay perspective; however, there is a Prototype Mr. Do that I found on MAME. The Colecovision version appears to have been modeled after the prototype. It has the same alternate music, and the sprites are less colorful. However, the Coleco version still has an annoying behavior when the center prize is obtained: two monsters dig horizontally, and two dig vertically. very odd.

 

7800 -- I was torn. The 5200 was just starting to see its potential. My friends and I LOVED playing the games. The 7800 system was touted (back in 83) as having the ability to move "unlimitted" sprites on screen, much like the arcade. They touted how many colors each sprite could have. They used Joust as the color example, and they used Robotron as the number of Sprites example. I was torn. I felt jaded by Atari, yet I wanted to see this incredible, revolutionary sprite system. Will it REALLY save my high scores? Full attract modes? Will the keyboard allow me to program games? Claims were made that the 5200 would have a 7800 expansion module, so Atari wasn't going to leave anybody high and dry. They were also hitting a low price point, so it was possible; but how would I afford this as a kid without a job? Why another version of Ms. Pac-Man? Why another Dig Dug? Why another Centipede?

 

A month later, the video game magazines claimed that Jack Tramel had taken over Atari, and he said they weren't going to peddle any of that video game crap. The 7800 was DEAD. I was torn up. The 5200 was gone, the 7800 was gone, and I decided to give up on video games. They were a fad I guess. A year or two later (bad with time), I saw the 7800 was released. My parents were going to buy me one for early graduation. We went to (I think) Children's Palace. It was SOLD OUT.. All they had was this NES system. I looked at the images on the back of the 7800 box. The Ms Pac-Man looked aged. The monsters STILL looked like they had SQUARE eyes, like the 5200. WTH? I thought this was the next generation? Dig Dug looked funny. Here was this Nintendo system with an arcade PERFECT Super Mario Bros! I took that home. The sound effects, the music, the synthesized drums.... The sharp high-res sprites. I was amazed, and I didn't regret my purchase. I was thankful the 7800 was sold out.

 

A few months later, my friend got the 7800. I got to FINALLY see what I longed for in 1983/84. MAN WAS I DISAPPOINTED. Ms Pac-Man was admittedly smoother than my 5200 version, and it had less flicker, but it didn't look MUCH better. In fact, the sound was even less accurate than the 5200. When I saw Dig Dug, the sprites were mutli colored, but the resolution was so LOW (No improvement over 5200), they looked squished and ugly. Pole Position II had a flat car. It was more detailed, but the sound wasn't as good as my 5200. Galaga was UGLY. The patterns were not correct, and the sprites looked nothing like the arcade. The sound was a little better than some games, but still lacked.

 

Common theme of the 7800: The controls are sluggish. I am not talking about the joysticks themselves. I have a cartridge version of the EXCELLENT Pac-Man Collection. The control is delayed. Games didn't have the tight feel of the 5200 or Coleco games. They felt floaty like a 2600 game. They really looked like somebody put lipstick on a pig. I was so SO disappointed. I appreciated the extra colors, but I still cannot stomach the sounds. As pointed out earlier in the forum, I blame programmers for some of the sound issues. Donkey Kong COULD have sounded better. The new 8K version of 2600 Pac-Man proves that could have been more accurate (yet not perfect). How did I go from an almost perfect 5200 Centipede to the ugly 7800 version? Why is there a BOX around the playfield? How is that arcade perfect? What is that terrible 2600 sound? It was such a sad moment. The 7800 sound killed it. To me, that was a big selling point of the NES and an embarrassment for my beloved Atari! The 2600 sound chip sounds worse on the 7800.. lol. The graphics have more colorful sprites, but they are still lower res than the NES. The control feels floaty.

 

I absolutely LOVE the Donkey Kong Arcade for the 7800. It shows what the system COULD have done; but I still feel a little jerky/floaty movement, and that is a limitation of the system, as it's common in all 7800 games I have played. I also own the Atari Age version of Frenzy for the 7800. The 5200 version of Berzerk is much smoother! I think the mistake was worrying about 2600 backward compatibility when the 7800 came out. It may have been a mistake when the 5200/Coleco was released (only because Colecovision did it), but by 1983, the 2600 should have been a footnote. They should have improved the sprite chip for their 8-bit/5200 hardware, not put lipstick on a pig.

 

So, that is how I felt as a child growing up. Today, I accept the systems for their flaws. I think the 2600 hardware was light years ahead of itself. I also feel the 8-bit/5200 hardware was too. I love to see the 2600 get pushed to new levels. Unfortunately, it seems as if the 5200/8-bit scene will not get the same opportunity. I don't see maximizing their potential, let alone any kind of DPC+ type solution. That saddens me. I would really like to see the 8-bit get some homebrews that take advantage of modern development, much like the 2600 does. From there, add on chips might be cool. I think the 7800 is getting a great treatment. I think homebrew has maximized the raw potential. I think the XM module sounds interesting, and doesn't seem too far fetched from what could have been added back in the day. I think the Colecovision has pretty much reached the limits what it can do without any extra hardware help (Based off of OpCode's comments concerning his DK port).

 

Natively, Coleco gets the smaller pixel sprites, and Atari 8-bit/5200 gets more colors. Sound is apples oranges to me. Both systems can be jerky at times, but I rarely see that in the 5200./8-bit. Coleco -- even Adam (like Adam DK) is very jerky in movement. Mr.Do's Castle is jerky on both. The 7800 is just loose and floaty consistently. I think the latter are pretty un-biased observations/truths. Keep in mind that early on comments were my childhood biases.

Edited June 1, 2015 by darryl1970

[Jinks]

This old thread AGAIN WOW!!!

[Jaynz]

Haster! HASTER! HASTER!!!

 

Anywho, I think asking 'which system was best' is asking the wrong thing anyway. I found things to love on the 2600, 7800, Colocovision, Astrocade, Vectrex, etc. Sure, the 2600 was dated when it came out, but it gave me so many great hours of games. The Colecovision gave me 'near Arcade' ports of so many classics. And now the 7800 is really scratching that classic itch, particularly with Bob's work.

 

Love the games, man. Love the games.

[Jinks]

http://findwords.info/term/haster

 

???? meat screen eh?

[Jaynz]

Yeah... I'll never read CoC the same way again....

[Jinks]

http://m.coc.ca/PerformancesAndTickets/FreeConcertSeries/May.aspx

 

I guess it could be boring enough to bring a book.