Why isn't the 130XE the dominant Atari 8bit?

[charliecron]

Because of 1200xl!

 

[Poison]

because there arent TOP Games. Computer can be the best of all, but without software is useless.

- Golden Axe, R-Type, Renegade, Double Dragon, Lotus, Turrican, Dizzy and many and many other great games.

 

What is better? Zybex (this is only ONE game for atari of high quality!) or R-Type? American country cross or Lotus? Golden Axe or . . . . ???????

 

Games is the reason, why atari 130XE is not dominant computer. All is only about software . .. .

[Creature XL]

because there arent TOP Games. Computer can be the best of all, but without software is useless.

- Golden Axe, R-Type, Renegade, Double Dragon, Lotus, Turrican, Dizzy and many and many other great games.

 

What is better? Zybex (this is only ONE game for atari of high quality!) or R-Type? American country cross or Lotus? Golden Axe or . . . . ???????

 

Games is the reason, why atari 130XE is not dominant computer. All is only about software . .. .

 

[ ] you have read the topic till the last word

 

 

SCNR

 

Made the same mistake

[carmel_andrews]

probably because tramiel was only interested in getting the RBP (the ST) into the market and the only way he could do that was via the XL (since the XE wasn't available then) by the time the XE came along the ST had already started taking off (especially in europe) and anyway tramiel wasn't really interested in Atari's former products anyway, only what he bought into Atari (like the ST)

[Innovative Leisure]

probably because tramiel was only interested in getting the RBP (the ST) into the market and the only way he could do that was via the XL (since the XE wasn't available then)

by the time the XE came along the ST had already started taking off (especially in europe) and anyway tramiel wasn't really interested in Atari's former products anyway, only what he bought into Atari (like the ST)

 

The XE and ST series both debuted in 1985, during which time Atari (Atari Corp.) continued to support the 2600, 5200 and XL computers.

Edited August 8, 2013 by Innovative Leisure

[adam242]

Games is the reason, why atari 130XE is not dominant computer. All is only about software . .. .

 

probably because tramiel was only interested.....

 

Well, no... Neither Jack Tramiel nor the software available during the machine's lifecycle have anything to do with why the XE isn't dominant today, when compared to other Atari 8-bit machines.

 

My original response was a quick one, fired off from my phone. Let me expand on my original points.

• Crappy Keyboard - The XEs keys have a terrible feel and are relatively failure-prone (though I must admit to liking the C64-style graphics symbols on the keycaps). Anyone still using one of these machines for word processing or programming would be better served by an 800 or XL.
  
• Awkward Cartridge Port - Out the back of the machine. Really? Hard to get to, and an unsupported cart hanging horizontally out of the port puts a strain on the connector. Anyone using carts for gaming today would be better served by a top-loading 800XL or memory-expanded 600XL.
  
• Less-than-great video - the RF on my XE is horrible, and the composite, even after upgrades, pales in comparison to a stock 800. Either an XE or XL requires modification to give a decent composite signal, so why not choose the XL?
  
• Fully unsocketed motherboard - This one is the biggest sin in my book. Makes the XEs difficult to upgrade or repair. Who wants to deal with unsoldering a 40-pin DIP or a bunch of RAM chips? The one advantage of the 130XE when it was new was its extra memory. I loved having even a small RAMdisk for a MEM.SAV file. But today, an extra 64K is a joke - it's handily trumped by things like the Ultimate 1Meg upgrade, which is way easier to install in a socketed XL.
  

Other posters have mentioned the nostalgia factor, and I'll chime in on that. My 130XE that I had in the 80s was the Atari I spent the most time with, and should have the strongest "bond" to. It's why I keep one in my collection, even though it is seldom used. The emotional connection is trumped by my coming to appreciate the practical considerations listed above.

 

Just my two cents. Well, maybe three.

[ZarK]

My Votes for the XEGS!

 

yup... the GS or GM... whatever...

 

Back in the day, My Father had an 800XL, and later I bought a 130XE and I only used them for gaming. My Father was the one typing and fiddling and even modded the 800xl (not sure what mod) and had this toggle switch out the side. Anyway off topic.

 

I considered the 130XE when I got back into the 8-bit to show my Son because it had better specs and decent styling and horrible Cart slot (Deal killer). I never planned to do any typing so the squishy keyboard isn't important. Eventually settled on the XEGS as it had a top loading cart slot and could be upgraded enough to be decent. I even liked the pastel buttons!

 

So, Ol' Gamer guy sez the XEGS is better and this was the market the GS or GM was aimed for.

[82atari5200]

I personally love my 1200xl because it's time line is on par with the atari 5200.(Which is my favourite system of all time.) Plus I found it in the wild at a thrift store many moons ago. IT just looks cool. I have an 800xl that I use the most though just because it's smaller. But when I get my computer room setup it's 1200xl all the way.

[MEtalGuy66]

XEGS is also the latest/most advanced design.. Last 8bit machine atari did.. They got rid of a BUNCH of discrete resistors and used DIP resistor packs instead.. It has the Freddy, like the rest of the XE line, that eliminates a bunch of discrete ICs from the XL design.. And the BASIC and OS roms (and missile command too) are combined into a single 32k (27256 compatable)ROM. It uses 4bit DRAM, which means only 2 chips per 64k rather than 8 on the XL line or earier XEs.. Not only does all of this consolidation save space on the motherboard, but it also saves overall load on the data bus, which we know is a direct contributor to the infamous "PHI2 stability problems" that you see with heavily expanded machines.

 

If it had a PBI/ECI slot and a port with chroma/luma video out, and a decent keyboard, it would be the hands-down winner.. The motherboard is unsocketed, but thats not really an issue for me.. I am used to re-socketing my machines.. The Sockets atari used on the XL line are junk, and I replace all of them anyway..

Edited August 8, 2013 by MEtalGuy66

[+rockdoc2010]

Nostalgia, I still have my original 800 from back in the day (and just got a monitor/S-video cable for it to hook to my TV). And all those B&W XL machines are hideous to my eyes. It's a bias, I know, but since both machines are less powerful than my smartphone I can't really justify spending more money for another 8-bit just because it has slightly better specs. I barely have room for the computers I actually use regularly, I have two SGIs that are being neglected as well (I think, besides them running Irix, I always loved SGI computers because they looked like they had the same case designers as whoever designed the Atari 800, very stylish). And if my dream to code a game for the 800/5200 happens I figure that if it works for the lesser version then it should work for all of them.

i did an svideo mod on a 800xl and it was glorious until my cat rubbed against me in winter..

[+rockdoc2010]

XEGS is also the latest/most advanced design.. Last 8bit machine atari did.. They got rid of a BUNCH of discrete resistors and used DIP resistor packs instead.. It has the Freddy, like the rest of the XE line, that eliminates a bunch of discrete ICs from the XL design.. And the BASIC and OS roms (and missile command too) are combined into a single 32k (27256 compatable)ROM. It uses 4bit DRAM, which means only 2 chips per 64k rather than 8 on the XL line or earier XEs.. Not only does all of this consolidation save space on the motherboard, but it also saves overall load on the data bus, which we know is a direct contributor to the infamous "PHI2 stability problems" that you see with heavily expanded machines.

 

If it had a PBI/ECI slot and a port with chroma/luma video out, and a decent keyboard, it would be the hands-down winner.. The motherboard is unsocketed, but thats not really an issue for me.. I am used to re-socketing my machines.. The Sockets atari used on the XL line are junk, and I replace all of them anyway..

 

gold plated machine milled decoupled sockets.. almost 280$ but my 1200xl has them..every socket! I think Myatari has xegs bare boards.

[tschak909]

I _hate_ the XE keyboard. End of story.

 

-Thom

[flashjazzcat]

I _hate_ the XE keyboard. End of story.

 

-Thom

 

Ditto. Just spent many unsuccessful hours trying to fix a pair of fried XE Mylars after breezing through a load of XL keyboard renovations. Whatever the virtues of the XE line (and there are some), even the better keyboards are ultimately flawed.

[Gunstar]

On top of all the great things said, I'll throw this out there... For the very same reason I prefer to use a breadbox C64 vs. a C64c - nostalgia.

 

130XE was released so late, no way most Atari users could/would have had much time to develop those kinds of feelings for it.

 

If I bothered to maintain an A8 system, would definitely be a 400 or 800. Cool computers for what they are but the XE line would be my least favorite.

Not for all of us. I started out with a 130XE, if the computers alone held any nostalgia for me, it would be a 130XE. But since the 130XE does have all those issues mentioned like mushy keyboard and awkward cart port, etc., I am NOT nostalgic for that particular machine, even though it was my first. I prefer the 1200XL for it's fantastic keyboard, I think the side cart slot is the best design of all 8-bits, and it's still built like a tank and has plenty of room for upgrades, including a Rambo or other that makes it compatible with 99.9% of 130XE extended memory software plus a lot more that is over 128K that even the 130XE is useless for, without it's own upgrades. That is why the 130XE is not the flagship computer to me.

[danwinslow]

Now that incognito exists, my fave is the Atari 800. That was my first real computer back in the day.

[doctorclu]

(Answering the original question)

 

I experienced a 65 XE basically come apart from use. Amazingly cheap. The 130 XE was better but not by much. But out of the box it was a amazing technical computer. I was tempted to get one back in the day. But then early on you needed a translator disk for software.

 

I have always been a fan of the beige line (400/800). Built like tanks, 800 has a great keyboard, and now with the Incogneto has a lot of the advantages of the XL and XE lines. No expansion port though, but oh well.

[danwinslow]

(Answering the original question)

 

I experienced a 65 XE basically come apart from use. Amazingly cheap. The 130 XE was better but not by much. But out of the box it was a amazing technical computer. I was tempted to get one back in the day. But then early on you needed a translator disk for software.

 

I have always been a fan of the beige line (400/800). Built like tanks, 800 has a great keyboard, and now with the Incogneto has a lot of the advantages of the XL and XE lines. No expansion port though, but oh well.

Actually there is a PBI slot exposed that you can run out on a 50 pin cable.

[Dmitry]

Back in the day, I took the full ride - Atari 400 -> Atari 800XL (with 256k) -> Atari 130XE. The last was a downgrade, but the reason I did that, at the time, I was worried about 'compatible' memory.

 

In reality, the 256k memory on my 800XL was as useful as it would ever get, it was a ramdisk - and quite a performance boost for my BBS.

 

The 130XE just had less memory, and while we all talked about compatibility...there was no real reason to get the 130XE for memory reasons, in retrospect.

To answer the original poster, however, the one Atari I never bothered to collect, though it was my first is the 400, and I do have 130XE's.

 

Why I like the 130XE is it comes with 128K stock for running spartdos X without the need for a memory upgrade. That way I don't need a U1MB, and can just use side 2 for spartados x, realtime clock. I like it because the cartridge port is on the back, for the permanently attached side 2 cartridge....just looks nicer. And it matches a XF551 floppy which I still use sometimes to transfer this or that. Also, the XE versions of popular upgrades are easy to come by. VBXE, Rapidus.

 

However, since I don't really solder anyway, that last concern isn't that big of a concern, and truth be told its my 800XL that actually has a VBXE installed.

[kiwilove]

I never liked the 130XE keyboard. Asked a friend to do a mod for it - to cut holes in those plastic domes so that there's less resistance when pressing down on a key. It did improve the feel to it - for those who are touch typists. Didn't keep it for all that long afterwards though - I eventually sold all my 8-bit computers in order to be moving onto the 16-bit computers and consoles. Never had the spare cash to hold onto my Atari 800 or Atari 800XL or Atari 600XL (upgraded) and Atari 130XE. I did turn C-64 briefly in order to play some new high quality games (and can vouch for the high quality shooters - which were sorely lacking on the A8 - ie. Sanxion, Delta, IO, Zaxxon (was far better, the Synapse version).

 

Zybex was never a top quality game for me - same for others which were rated highly. For me - there weren't any number of high quality games produced for the XL/XE computers.

Time and effort were required to produce the next wave of top quality games - which did not appear. There was not the commercial incentive for developers to support the XL/XE line - in terms of computer market share - and so it was left for those still hooked on these computers - the hobbyists? to produce what titles they could.

 

Harvey

[Bryan]

• Fully unsocketed motherboard - This one is the biggest sin in my book. Makes the XEs difficult to upgrade or repair. Who wants to deal with unsoldering a 40-pin DIP or a bunch of RAM chips? The one advantage of the 130XE when it was new was its extra memory. I loved having even a small RAMdisk for a MEM.SAV file. But today, an extra 64K is a joke - it's handily trumped by things like the Ultimate 1Meg upgrade, which is way easier to install in a socketed XL.

 

I was discussing this with someone in the electronics business once and he told me there's only one reason to put sockets in a consumer product, and that's so you can make the boards now and buy the chip inventory later. I think that's partially true, but there are some products you expect people to repair instead of throw away. Anyway, a board with sockets is actually less reliable in the short run since you're relying on a bunch of physical contacts instead of solder.

[Gunstar]

Quote Kiwilove: " I did turn C-64 briefly in order to play some new high quality games (and can vouch for the high quality shooters - which were sorely lacking on the A8 - ie. Sanxion, Delta, IO, Zaxxon (was far better, the Synapse version).

Zybex was never a top quality game for me - same for others which were rated highly. For me - there weren't any number of high quality games produced for the XL/XE computers.
Time and effort were required to produce the next wave of top quality games - which did not appear. There was not the commercial incentive for developers to support the XL/XE line - in terms of computer market share - and so it was left for those still hooked on these computers - the hobbyists? to produce what titles they could."

 

 

Reply:

 

Quite a few good shooters have found their way to the 8-bit by home-brewers already that are pretty damn good, from the perspective of not playing very many C64 shooters, or much of anything beyond the A8 until the 32/64-bit "next-gen" systems came out in the early nineties. I went from 8-bit to 64-bit and 32-bit. But I really like the most of the new ones like Collisto, Battle Eagle, X:8 and others. And I always thought Vanadium and Uridium, The Last Gaurdian, Mirax Force and others were as good or better than Zybex, minus the 2-player co-op.

Edited April 20, 2016 by Gunstar

[kiwilove]

.....

Reply:

 

Quite a few good shooters have found their way to the 8-bit by home-brewers already that are pretty damn good, from the perspective of not playing very many C64 shooters, or much of anything beyond the A8 until the 32/64-bit "next-gen" systems came out in the early nineties. I went from 8-bit to 64-bit and 32-bit. But I really like the most of the new ones like Collisto, Battle Eagle, X:8 and others. And I always thought Vanadium and Uridium, The Last Gaurdian, Mirax Force and others were as good or better than Zybex, minus the 2-player co-op.

I just have picky picky tastes - I just think the graphics in those games you've mentioned could be better still.

Though some of Battle Eagles designs do appeal to me.

I can't think of any A8 titles that appealed to me, after Blue Max / Dropzone. It was until the SNES turned up - did shooters seem to be on top again. There were too few on the Amiga - XR-35 stood out but had very tough gameplay. Battle Squadron was well made but lacked addictiveness in it's gameplay. And I was unimpressed by what turned up on the ST - small scrolling screens and jerky sprites. Xenon II was way over-rated - although it looked very pretty.

 

Being a fan of coin-ops - I like to see games in the home going up to that kind of standard.

 

Harvey

[Gunstar]

I just have picky picky tastes - I just think the graphics in those games you've mentioned could be better still.

Though some of Battle Eagles designs do appeal to me.

I can't think of any A8 titles that appealed to me, after Blue Max / Dropzone. It was until the SNES turned up - did shooters seem to be on top again. There were too few on the Amiga - XR-35 stood out but had very tough gameplay. Battle Squadron was well made but lacked addictiveness in it's gameplay. And I was unimpressed by what turned up on the ST - small scrolling screens and jerky sprites. Xenon II was way over-rated - although it looked very pretty.

 

Being a fan of coin-ops - I like to see games in the home going up to that kind of standard.

 

Harvey

I totally agree with your Amiga and ST assessments, I owned both for a while and I was underwhelmed by the shooters on those systems too, including Xenon II. it actually made me appreciate the A8's shooters more, even if, like you, I always thought the graphics could be better, I have come to appreciate the game-play much more and all the different graphic modes the Atari 8-bit has and are used in it's shooters.

[kiwilove]

I totally agree with your Amiga and ST assessments, I owned both for a while and I was underwhelmed by the shooters on those systems too, including Xenon II. it actually made me appreciate the A8's shooters more, even if, like you, I always thought the graphics could be better, I have come to appreciate the game-play much more and all the different graphic modes the Atari 8-bit has and are used in it's shooters.

I don't wish to negatively criticise the various programmers for all their effort - which is still appreciated. It is all too easy to criticise - I'm no programmer and can appreciate how difficult programming really is. The tight deadline is usually no help and I hope they can improve upon what they have done so as to be better and better.

 

Tail of Beta Lyrae does still stand out for it's technical brilliance - but it lacks an addictiveness in it's gameplay - it's just too hard?

 

Harvey

[Spanner]

One thing with it is the look of it,it looks like a ST,it was a mistake I think,I like my 800XL better and the way the keys feel,I am using my 130XE at the moment,I am changing its colour to black but leaving the keys.