THE!CART... New 128MB FLASH Cartridge

[flashjazzcat]

I'm well aware of that, that's why I wrote non-standard

Yes - I supposed there was a point being made there.

 

Actually I think it was a very bad idea to redefine the semantics of the well documented SIO read/write sector commands and use some additional fields. The proper approach would have been to only use DAUX1/2 for SIO read/write and add additional commands, let's say extended read/write, which use whatever additional parameters they want.

 

Any program/DOS/whatever wanting to support more than 65535 sectors could have just queried the interface if it also supports "extended read/write" and then use those special commands.

 

The biggest issue with the DUNUSE approach is that it only works with PBI devices. The physical SIO protocol (on the SIO bus) only transmits DAUX1/2 in the command frame - so it just isn't possible to break the 65535 sectors limit.

Well, I seem to recall from reading I did years ago on the IDEa interface and discussions with the original firmware's author that the DUNUSE situation was always viewed as a little tenuous, if only because of the vague possibility that the high eight bits of the sector number might conceivably be non-zero when they should be zero, causing all kinds of problems. It may even be the case (I don't recall offhand) that DUNUSE's position was reconsidered as a consequence, although in point of fact I have not encountered a single situation where using it to store bits 16-23 of the sector number caused any problem at all. In any case, this situation was probably the main motivation for the creation of the XDCB, which supports a completely different device ID - not just the additional commands you suggest. Operations on the standard logical disk device ($31) or the physical disk device ($20) with bit 7 of the device ID set use the XDCB, which unambiguously repurposes miscellaneous bytes in the device control block for use as bits 16-31 of the 32-bit sector number. This is the scheme we have adopted for all the APT-compliant PBI HDD handlers.

 

So really, to do the job properly with existing HDD interfaces, it would be better to go the whole extra mile and use the XDCB with some compatible flasher, since XDCB has made the "clean break" you advocate in order to overcome the limitations of the old standard. And of course it maintains complete backward compatibility with legacy software.

 

Regarding compatibility with serial devices: the fact it's not possible to break the 16-bit addressing limit in the physical SIO protocol is of course no reason not to invent a better system for use with parallel hard disks. I think Konrad made some quite difficult but wise decisions when implementing such things as 512 byte sectors, etc.

 

... So we went the raw image route, it's DOS independent, provides quick random access, and - in case of 8k sectors - supports 128MB (and more).

 

Another approach would have been to add some sort of USB programmer function to the cart, but this would have increased costs and complexity.

Yeah: this all makes sense. After all, the point is to deliver the goods in the most convenient and universally compatible way possible.

 

I can imagine dealing with this nasty ATR header offset must have caused you quite some headaches - but from what I've read you seem to managed doing it very well!

At first Candle was all for inventing some new, saner container, and writing a tool to convert ATRs, but I was adamant that ATRs were manageable. Whether the method for dealing with the information IN the header is entirely optimal I do not know, but dealing with the resultant 16 byte offset into physical sectors wasn't ultimately too difficult. Basically everything has to be buffered, but sometimes you're lucky and three whole 128 byte sectors reside in the same 512 byte physical disk sector, and you can pull them out of the sector buffer during consecutive reads without actually obtaining another sector from the HDD. The whole thing, as I recall, was coded up in a few evenings, but as usual it was one elusive bug which kept it from working properly for nearly a week.

 

IMO 8k sectors are of quite limited use on the Atari. You certainly wouldn't want to put an SDFS or something like that on it OTOH they are nice for storing large amounts of data.

Yes, this is why I'm reluctant to attempt an implementation on Ultimate/Incognito (solely for ATR emulation, of course), although it would be an interesting challenge. Having said that, I probably have enough interesting challenges.

 

Personally I'm all for maximum compatibility between PC file systems and the A8, and my appetite for this was whetted by working on the ATR mounting. I already have a basic R/O FAT filesystem coded up, and I'm somehow fixated on seeing how well that can be utilised in other situations, and how the (admittedly horrible) FAT file system can be made slightly more 8-bit friendly by means of caching and other optimisations.

 

While we're chatting (it's been a long time, BTW!), I wonder if I might pester you for insight into serial IO handlers in the future, since I rather think I'll have the task of writing one (or even adapting something which already exists) in the not too distant future.

 

I'm not sure if it's worth all the hassle to implement them in the PBI BIOS since for the!cart there's always the 16MB fallback route. There would be a small speed gain, but I don't think it'll be huge.

I'm inclined to agree.

Edited January 24, 2014 by flashjazzcat

[HiassofT]

In any case, this situation was probably the main motivation for the creation of the XDCB, which supports a completely different device ID - not just the additional commands you suggest.

Ah, OK. If a device ID other than $3x is used, this is fine of course.

 

I first encountered the DUNUSE stuff in a bug report for MyPicoDos some 10 years or so ago. MyPicoDos accidentally wrote to DUNUSE and this made it non-functionial on the KMK interface. I can't remember all the details, but my first thought was "what a crap". Well, at least it helped me find the (small) bug in MyPicoDos

 

Anyways, if this is fixed now in the new XDCB standard and reads/writes to device $3x work as expected, everything's fine.

 

So really, to do the job properly with existing HDD interfaces, it would be better to go the whole extra mile and use the XDCB with some compatible flasher, since XDCB has made the "clean break" you advocate in order to overcome the limitations of the old standard. And of course it maintains complete backward compatibility with legacy software.

 

Regarding compatibility with serial devices: the fact it's not possible to break the 16-bit addressing limit in the physical SIO protocol is of course no reason not to invent a better system for use with parallel hard disks. I think Konrad made some quite difficult but wise decisions when implementing such things as 512 byte sectors, etc.

Patches are welcome :-)

 

As usual I'll release all the sources on my website once we finished testing (actually, WIP versions are already there, just hidden .

 

Since I don't have any PBI interfaces to test with I can't implement it by myself. If anyone's interested in having XDCB support in the flasher, just give it a go and I'll be happy to integrate your patch!

 

While we're chatting (it's been a long time, BTW!),

It's really been a very long time since we last chatted!

 

I wonder if I might pester you for insight into serial IO handlers in the future, since I rather think I'll have the task of writing one (or even adapting something which already exists) in the not too distant future.

Sure, no problem! If you need some code, feel free to reuse and/or adapt my highspeed code - if it fits your needs. If you have questions, just drop me a line (my email address is still the same).

 

so long,

 

Hias

[flashjazzcat]

Sure, no problem! If you need some code, feel free to reuse and/or adapt my highspeed code - if it fits your needs. If you have questions, just drop me a line (my email address is still the same).

That's great - thank you. You'll be sure to hear from me.

[FULS]

2014-01-23

• First version of "Google like search" and scrolling in the result list of the "Extended Menu" is now implemented. Some bugs still in there like cleaning the screen lines that are not part of the result, but for sure worth trying.
• The workbook options now allow all types of menus if the flash module type is "user defined". The "Simple Menu" and "Extended Menu" will of course only work if the actual module later is a The!Cart module.

Note that you don't have to type any prefix like in the example below but just any word that's in the title. I tested it with workbook with 14.000 entries, but they were all named like "ROM-001122", wil be more fun with actual titles.

 

The typing, the search and the update of the result are running as three separate "threads in parallel" - at least from your point of view.

 

Just flashed my cart with your newest software. What an improvement!!!

I love your "Google like search" and scrolling.

I didn't know the Atari could search that fast thru my 700 files.

Thank you very much for making this cart fun!

[Marius]

Just curious:

 

Are there any plans to do a (much) better release of this cart in the future?

 

I mean: a good case (like atarimax) where the pcb is really mounted, gold plated contacts, a feature to switch off the leds.

I am absolutely happy with the features this cart brings me. But when I start to use a 128 MegaByte cart, one can imagine this cart will be used a lot. Also for non-gaming purposes. I am very pleased with the compatibility, and I think the development team is doing a wonderful job on the software (really Jac, Hias... I'm amazed!)

 

But I would love to see this project succeed into a real professional cart. So please let me know: are there plans?

[ZylonSlayer77]

This new menu is definitely a major improvement. Now we're getting somewhere. Holding up and down seems to scroll a bit too fast though. I'm thinking having PageUp and PageDown on the left and right joystick controls would be good. Still, it's working very well overall. This is amazingly fast progress (especially considering a certain non-retro cart that came out about the same time still only has a teaser of their menu up). Thanks, and keep up the great work.

 

I'm making some revisions to my workbook that will take advantage of the search functionality. And of course, include the working XEX of Beach Head. Hopefully there won't be too many more of those original 1 Mbits that have issues. I actually had a file ready to put up, but upon further consideration of the search feature, I think I'll break the OS-B compilation up into self-booters. I'm also considering adding conversions that would previously have been redundant since they're already incorporated into the Bard Cart -- Eidolon, Koronis Rift, Gauntlet, etc. Besides, considering the Bard menu doesn't run on an original 800, I'm thinking maybe they are not so redundant after all. I know they said you'll be able to pick a specific game from a compilation eventually, but that one has a custom menu, so its list may not be easily extractable.

 

@FULS: 700? You've converted 300+ XEX and/or ATR files to self-booting CAR files already? Or? Wow, you work fast.

 

I agree with ProWizard on the whole production thing also. I mean, the device is amazing, but place it next to a MyIDE II and ask people which they'd feel more confident buying. Maybe AtariMax or Lotharek could assist you guys with getting a professional grade production run made. There's no doubt both have the connections. It wouldn't hurt to ask. The ability to take all the great stuff that's been released for the Maxflash and put it on one device should be reason enough to convince someone it's worthy of a mass production run (you can always point them to this thread to show how much interest the device has already gained, and in such a relatively short time frame).

[FULS]

@FULS: 700? You've converted 300+ XEX and/or ATR files to self-booting CAR files already? Or? Wow, you work fast.

 

I exaggerated by 52 roms. I just have 648 so far.

You can find most of them with KrOtki's "Atari 8-bit ROM list.zip" which is in this thread http://atariage.com/forums/topic/161828-hooked-on-8-bit-carts/?p=2705540

[Grevle]

Whats the best way to add XEX files to THE!CART ? Is it possible to somehow import one and one xex file ? or is it best to put the xex files as a collection on a cart type that THE!CART supports and

then flash that cart type to THE!CART ?

[ZylonSlayer77]

I exaggerated by 52 roms. I just have 648 so far.

You can find most of them with KrOtki's "Atari 8-bit ROM list.zip" which is in this thread http://atariage.com/forums/topic/161828-hooked-on-8-bit-carts/?p=2705540

I got many of my ROMs from that exact thread. Many of the ones in my collection are from your posts in that thread actually. Though I got "Moogles" and "Defender Of The Crown" from a post made by the owner of AtariMania I think. I separated the dumps according to whether they were apps or games of course, but I only count 36 app carts that I have dumps of. Then there's the "multi-app" and "stacked SDX" Maxflashes. But that still only puts me at 409. So where are the 238 I'm missing (yeah, I know 648 - 409 = 239, but I also know you can't redistribute Pac-Man Arcade, because apparently tep392 believes the media hoopla about fair use decreasing sales -- I believe it has the opposite effect, and I consider myself proof since I tend to own more retail games per system than any non-downloader I've ever met, but, I believe in respecting someone's wishes, even if you don't agree with their reasons). I'm kind-of up in the air on making a purchase. I don't consider homebrew collectable. I also see it somewhat as revisionist history. But unlike Space Harrier, this is at least within the realm of what could have been (and should have been). It is a very well done game, and the price isn't bad at all, so I may buy it yet. Anyway, that's 238 files that I've not been able to account for. What am I missing? Argh, this is going to drive me nuts until I figure it out, now.

[ZylonSlayer77]

Whats the best way to add XEX files to THE!CART ? Is it possible to somehow import one and one xex file ? or is it best to put the xex files as a collection on a cart type that THE!CART supports and

then flash that cart type to THE!CART ?

Thanks to the Maxflash support, if you want to run XEX files and/or ATR files, the quickest and easiest way would be to create a compilation in Maxflash Studio, export to .CAR, and then add it in The!Cart Studio. I include a couple of Maxflash compilations I've done in my workbook. If you look back far enough, you'll find the MCWs for them (page 6 -- the one I called "final" because I didn't foresee myself being able to add much without going over the 10 MB limit -- there has been a "bugfix" release since, and another is soon to come). Maxflash Studio does also have an option that allows you to pick a slot to auto-boot. So, you can load one game into the first slot, go into cart options, uncheck the fancy menu effect since you're not even going to see it, check the auto-start box, and that one game will run immediately. I've done that quite a few times as well, like with Bounty Bob, Ithix, etc. Individual 1 Mbit files may or may not waste more space than an 8 Mbit compilation, depending on how close your compilation comes to filling the cart, but saving space is far from being a concern.

 

The disadvantage of single files, you end up with more of them. The advantage, they'll be searchable, and you're not forgetting which compilation you placed what game on. I'd say it depends on the situation. I'm planning to leave my 5200 conversions compilation as is, but I'm planning to break down my OS-B one. Basically, whichever is easier for you. I tend to forget what's on all but the most obvious compilations (the Boulderdash 166-in-1 is obviously going to have, well, Boulderdash). Having been especially frustrated by things like the Homesoft collection and similar compilations, I'm going to do most of mine as individual self-boot carts (though I may make exceptions for things like PCS -- I don't see myself playing them much since I've got Visual PinMAME, though it can be fun to load one up now and then, just to see how far pinball simulation has come).

 

Naturally, I would advise checking your exported carts in Altirra first. Sometimes a game requires you to check some optional settings (the "warm reset" loading option will often fix an XEX that won't load, for example -- I had to do that with "Ithix" I believe). And you may need to move the loader to a different memory location in some instances (I've not had to yet, but, there's plenty of options available if you do).

Edited January 29, 2014 by ZylonSlayer77

[+JAC!]

>Are there any plans to do a (much) better release of this cart in the future?

>But I would love to see this project succeed into a real professional cart. So please let me know: are there plans?

>professional grade production run made.

Casing for carts has always been a problem and here we decided to get the cart out now and esp. not increase the price to get a better casing. Yet we are ourselves not really happy with the current case. So mega_hz has already some ideas how we could improve in that area, but that's gonna take some time. The production run (PCB etc.) itself is not the problem, but I personally definitively want a better case and will strive for it.

>Holding up and down seems to scroll a bit too fast though.

Will be fixed once I have a cart with a good amount of files to test. Currently I only have the extemes (32 entry & 14.000 entries), both are not suiteable for testing this :-)

>I'm thinking having PageUp and PageDown on the left and right joystick controls would be good.

Left & right will be used for flipping the "genre" pages. But I think with reasonable accelaration, the scrolling should be fine.

>Whats the best way to add XEX files to THE!CART ?

Use Maxflash Studio to create an 128K or 1MB Atarimax Module and add it.

>Is it possible to somehow import one and one xex file ?

Not yet, planned with low prio since Maxflash is very good & flexible at that and because of the next lines...

> The advantage, they'll be searchable, and you're not forgetting which compilation you placed what game on.

Beware that this is no longer the case with the next update. The menu & search will also look into the Atarimax Modules if you select "Display Type: Multiple Entries"!

That is what I always had in mind as primary use case :Create reasonable builing blocks with Maxflash and treat their entries are separately.

Edited January 29, 2014 by JAC!

[Marius]

@Jac!

 

Thanks for the reply, that is good to know. I still love the cart and the features… but it is always good to know there are future plans some day.

 

Is gold plated contacts btw. a lot more expensive than the contacts that are used now? I have had a great deal of trouble in the past with non-goldplated contacts with my blackbox. It's the oxidation that happens rather fast.

[+Stephen]

Great news - if another run is produced with those upgrades, I'll definitely be in for one

[mega-hz]

Hi folks,

 

about the case:

 

In early times i was looking for a suitable case, but couldn't find any for a good price, so i was looking for a standart case and do the milling on my cnc-mill.

Plans for the future are printing a case in one piece with the 3D-printer extension on my cnc.

I am still not finished with the 3d Printing parts.... Extruder are ready, but thats all a the time.

Because of about 3-8 degrees in my working-room it isn't much fun to work on cold metal-machines...

If the 3D-printing is running sometime, the first things are the cart-cases and new Atari-Cases... dream....how about double 1050 case or 1450xld case? would be great!

 

Some of you don't like the LEDs in THE!CART, so i plan to put a jumper or a little switch on the back or bottom to disable them.

 

Golden contacts is always good, normally i like them also more than the PB-free tin, but my thoughts was... at this cart there won't be a need for many in/out cycles.

Of course it is expensive, but may be the pcb makers can plate only the contacts, not the whole pcb.

i will ask for prices...

 

Somethings about the programming and testing the carts:

I have made a "double-cartridge port", one for the master and one for the target cart.

With $D300 (Joystickport) and a little GAL Logic the carts are switched form master reading to target writing.

HIAS made a nice test&flash program specially for this.

the programm reads/writes and veryfy the sram, the eeprom and the flash.

After flash is ready eeprom and sram are also verified again.

So its a very safe method of copieng the carts for you.

 

Thanx to all of you making that beast running with so much nice games...!

 

regards,

Wolfram

 

Edit: One thing i nearly forgot:

Who of you in the US would like to take care of programming the PLD in case of new logic?

I am looking for someone, who could take this part for you guys in the US, saves shipping time and costs...

Needs are XILINX-Impact Software and standart JTAG Cable.

Edited January 29, 2014 by mega-hz

[Marius]

About the LEDs

 

I really see a very interesting use for the LEDs… especially when I'm coding myself, it's very handy to see what line is high, which not. But when I play a game, and there is a lot of bankswitching going on, the blinking is really annoying. So a switch would be good yes!

 

I can not speak for other people, since I can not control their finance, but when it comes to atari 8bit equipment, I always prefer quality above money. If the cart would be 20 to 30 euro's more expensive for gold plated contacts and a good case, it's ok for me. But again: I can only speak for myself.

 

I remember that there were polls about these kind of things in the past about other hardware projects, where people could say which kind of quality they would chose. Most of them always vote for the best quality.

 

At this moment I have a whole stack of carts here… so enough to test this beast till the very end… and then we'll see

[Frankie]

I'll say this about the cart, it's one of the very few new ones that fit in a 1200xl easily.

Edited January 29, 2014 by Frankie

[ZylonSlayer77]

Ah, thanks for that information, JAC! I knew you had plans, but I had no idea you were so close to having the ability to search within Maxflash compilations completed. That's going to be an awesome feature, no question.

 

Still, pulling my OS-B cart apart was probably for the best. Besides, if I decide things are getting too cluttered, I can always revert the change. But some good has already come of it. I apparently forgot to test "K-razy Kritters" and "K-Star Partrol" lol. Being 8K ROMs, just with OS-B ticked in the menu, I guess I just assumed they worked alright, since "Demon Attack", "Gorf", and the "McDonald's" betas had. Surprise, black screen. Anyway, considering these are original ROMs, I think it's best that they get their own files. Which way I go with converting RPGs, War Strategies, Graphical Adventures, Text Adventures, Simulations, etc. remains to be seen. I mean, the XEXs of things like "F15" and "Silent Service" should work alright either way, but whether I want them on the same cart or not though, idk, I may have to try it both ways once the feature's implemented to know for sure.

 

As for the PLD thing, I'd like to help but I have neither of the things you mention. How difficult would they be for me to get? I'm sure in the case of the software, not very for someone like me (commercial or not). Now that J-Tag cable... I've never J-Tagged anything before (I'd like to do that to my 360 sometime, but, I'm not sure how well that would work with my current pass-through adapter ). So, I'm not sure where would be the best place to purchase a J-Tag cable online. Still, there's a store not a mile from my house that works with all 3 major carriers, and can therefore select whichever will give me the best deal on-the-fly. I've performed several returns through them, all of which have gone smoothly.

Edited January 30, 2014 by ZylonSlayer77

[FULS]

Anyway, that's 238 files that I've not been able to account for. What am I missing? Argh, this is going to drive me nuts until I figure it out, now.

You might not have some of these that were in KrOtki's database and others on the net. KrOtki's database has the Web addresses where to find a lot of hard to find roms.

 

[ZylonSlayer77]

You might not have some of these that were in KrOtki's database and others on the net. KrOtki's database has the Web addresses where to find a lot of hard to find roms.

Williams.rar

Thanks for that file. I had some of the Williams repros, but, certainly not that many. It is only repros I'm missing, right? I want to be sure I've at least got the original game carts nailed down, and I think I do (according to AtariMania's list, I did anyway). Well, I've started to go through the database again just to double check. It already reminded me of one thing I forgot to include -- the Deflektor fix. I should probably go ahead and add the NTSC versions of Dropzone as well. Think I'll remove Learning Phone though, because it appears that was a modem (with its connectivity software built-in), and I want everything included to work (the only version of MAME for the original Xbox I still use is from BAED 3, because everything that didn't run got taken out). I'm not even sure how that slipped past me. I knew what it was, it should have ended up in the "special hardware" folder right from the start. Thanks again.

[Grevle]

You might not have some of these that were in KrOtki's database and others on the net. KrOtki's database has the Web addresses where to find a lot of hard to find roms.

Williams.rar

 

Thank You, I didn't know that Polar Pierre was also on cart, i like this game.

[ZylonSlayer77]

@FULS: Hope I'm not bothering you with all of these questions but, in going through the database I'm seeing the same useless (for my purposes anyway) site linked for most of the ones I'm missing. Is there any place you can actually download the ROMs that have allegedly been dumped by that "Jindroush" site, or are they just hoarding the files, expecting us to take their word for it and keep looking?

Edited January 31, 2014 by ZylonSlayer77

[FULS]

I don't have a lot of information about the "Jindroush" site. I think back in the day he was the expert on dumping roms. He has a wealth of information on all the rom types and banking schemes. I know Atarimax and others have mirrored his site. He left the Atari scene very suddenly and unexpectedly. He was a member here at Atariage in the early 2000's.

 

This is an interesting thread. Read all the way thru it gives you an idea about his rom dumps.http://atariage.com/forums/topic/3557-8-bit-xegs-cartridge-dumps/?do=findComment&comment=33654

[Marius]

Today I found out that saving of data (like high-scores) is not working in at least Space Harrier. Is this known? Is this a bug? Or is this technically not possible?

[HiassofT]

Today I found out that saving of data (like high-scores) is not working in at least Space Harrier. Is this known? Is this a bug? Or is this technically not possible?

This is technically not possible. The Atarimax cart uses different flash chips (two 29F040 chips) which have a different organization (29F040 has 64k blocks, the S29GL01 used in thecart has 128k blocks).

 

To prevent any accidental damage of the cart's contents (imagine the consequences of a "chip erase" command) all emulated carts are run in a read only mode.

 

so long,

 

Hias

[_The Doctor__]

@FULS: Hope I'm not bothering you with all of these questions but, in going through the database I'm seeing the same useless (for my purposes anyway) site linked for most of the ones I'm missing. Is there any place you can actually download the ROMs that have allegedly been dumped by that "Jindroush" site, or are they just hoarding the files, expecting us to take their word for it and keep looking?

 

As I understand it jindroush wanted to be "THE SOURCE" for all cartridge based knowledge... he posted on his sight that if he found any of his information re-printed he would take all his toys and go home. The funny thing was his knowledge came from a community effort. Everyone worked their hind ends off in the effort but it was a one way deal... all to him and his close knit friends. The very same people always screaming about piracy and rights and carrying on about lawyers are the very people who have copies of his dumps. A few of which have internet stores and keep software tied up in legal messes sometimes against the very programmers and individuals whom helped create and test them....

And there was indeed a reason for the clickable pie symbol and black clickable spot on his page at the time... one was a wild goose chase the other was to log in to another part of his site. When you read what was said across some forums and boards including Atariage you will see what was said and how it was said as he got mad about it all and that is about all there is to say on the matter.