How many Apple II games were made?

[high voltage]

Just watching Triumph of the Nerds, great video. After that I watch Nerds 2.0.1, another great vid.

 

Edited June 7, 2014 by high voltage

[Tanrunomad]

Well there's one more Apple II game to add to the list, a new Flappy bird clone called Flapple Bird by Dagen Brock.

[X900BattleGrape]

Just watching Triumph of the Nerds, great video. After that I watch Nerds 2.0.1, another great vid.

 

The fact that only Gates and Jobs are on the cover should be a clue that this is a very revisionist look at the industries origins. It isn't hyperbole to say that this is so. Imagine that Russia somehow goes away as a nation and 10 years from now a documentary on WWII fails to mention the role of the Soviets. No one is bashing Apple here, they played a very important role. It's just that they and Gates weren't the only ones and, I think it's quite easy to make the case, Commodore played as important a role (sometimes more so) and if you're going to peddle a book/documentary as "history" then it needs to be, well, historical

[digarok]

Wow, thanks TanruNomad. I just joined here after seeing your games in the forum. I appreciate the mention. Hopefully we can both add a few more to the numbers before we're done.

[Tanrunomad]

Wow, thanks TanruNomad. I just joined here after seeing your games in the forum. I appreciate the mention. Hopefully we can both add a few more to the numbers before we're done.

Nice you see you here and love your game. What's funny is that at the exact same time you were developing flapple bird, I was making Surf Shooter for the Android platform. Took a span of about 6 weeks to make, mostly consisting of 30 minute chunks whenever I was either not working or not on baby duty (I have a 3 month old) and I think I released it the day after flapple bird. Pretty funny.

[MarkO]

i've had a go at programming the Apple II and want to do a game at some point, but one thing i found off-putting is the documentation, or more to the point the lack thereof. There's no definitive information about how to do even simple things like syncing to the vertical blank (i know a lot of Apple II games don't, but i wouldn't be happy with that personally and since i rely on emulation i can't be sure that what i code actually works on the real deal) and the Mockingboard docs i found... the bloody code examples are in hex and, whilst i can sight read simple 6502 like that, i'd bet that most people who might find that information handy can't.

More VBlanking Info on comp.systems.apple2, post "VBlank Apple IIc"...

 

Speaking of the Mockingboard... here's one i prepared earlier... but no idea if it works on real hardware because it relies on a sync technique that either does or doesn't work depending on which docs you read!

 

The Apple ][ and Apple ][+ share the same Motherboards, so one of either will let you know if the VBlanking Works. The Apple ][e Motherboards should basically be the same, but there is enough units out there to test the variations..

 

The Apple //c and Apple //c+ appear to be the opposite, but there are many units our there to test with.

 

Apple ][gs seems to follow the Apple][e method of VBlanking..

 

MarkO

[digarok]

Regarding VBLANK, it is different between the IIe, IIc and IIgs.

 

In the IIe, and IIgs, you can just read the high-bit of $c019, but be aware that the meaning is INVERTED between these two machines. This is easy enough to deal with.

 

In the IIc, things are totally different. $c019 represents the VBL interrupt state. Basically, what you need to do on a IIc is set up a VBL interrupt. You can do this by directly setting up a low-level interrupt, or using the ProDOS MLI calls to add an interrupt handler.

 

For Flapple Bird (Flappy Bird on Apple II), I have code that handles all 3 VBLANK types. You can check out the code that does it here:

https://github.com/digarok/flapple/blob/master/src/flapple.s

The "DetectMachine" function sets up the normal VBLANK detection for either IIe or IIgs, then it calls InitVBlank which checks for a IIc, and if true then it installs a VBL int handler and starts the VBL interrupts firing.

 

I don't know why they made this so wonky and why the engineers decided to screw with VBLANK on each successive machine release. Unfortunately, I think most software developers ended up not really using VBLANK in games because it's nearly impossible to do anything meaningful graphically with the amount of time you have, the speed of the processor and no graphics hardware. In Flapple Bird, I made a conscious decision to trade fidelity (using a lower resolution mode) for speed (60 FPS locked to VBLANK). But even that wasn't trivial.

 

Anyway, I learned a lot about the various VBLANK implementations, and my code isn't great but maybe it helps. If someone else is having trouble understanding this, let me know and I'll try to help you out.

[TMR]

Anyway, I learned a lot about the various VBLANK implementations, and my code isn't great but maybe it helps. If someone else is having trouble understanding this, let me know and I'll try to help you out.

Ta for that. What i've been doing so far is relying on the "read from screen RAM" thing and shoving an otherwise unused byte into a memory hole; AppleWin says it works (although the results are a little... quirky, i think the contents of those memory holes repeat or something) and i've asked a few people to try it on real hardware with positive results, but it'd be nice to know if that technique really does work completely across the board...

 

Part of the problem i've got is that Apple IIs are almost as rare as rocking horse poo over here, so the prices are completely out of my league and importing isn't really an option; no real hardware means i can't test for myself.

[ianoid]

 

I think you're giving them too much credit,.

 

I agree. What I've read in those early video gaming magazines wasn't substantial or generally journalistic. The target audience was teenaged. They are fun to look through, but I definitely find more facts from classic computer mags- not that the quality is uniform for those either .

 

 

----

I'm excited to see someone working on this type of database for Apple II. The Apple II just doesn't have the love or cohesiveness that some of the other classic computer scenes have, which have worked on their databases. I hope to see one that is searchable with some complexity with files and eventually scans like Atarimania has been doing for Atari stuff.

Edited June 22, 2014 by ianoid

[The Usotsuki]

I suppose it's because we Apple ][ gamers are a tiny minority of Apple ][ fans.

[TMR]

I suppose it's because we Apple ][ gamers are a tiny minority of Apple ][ fans.

So as someone who doesn't know the Apple II community then or now, how does it currently divide up and has that always been a constant?

[Bill Loguidice]

So as someone who doesn't know the Apple II community then or now, how does it currently divide up and has that always been a constant?

 

Again, the Apple II community had a ton of gamers and games back in the day, so it's a bit strange that the modern day community in general is more or less content with playing those same games rather than creating new ones. I mean, there are plenty of great ways to play Apple II games, and great repositories online (and even very mature Browser-based ways), but the creation of new games is sluggish. It's a shadow of what computers like the Commodore 64, Atari 8-bit, and many others get. It's also not really a technical limitation either, because the ZX Spectrum gets plenty of homebrew gaming love. It's probably a combination of factors like we discussed, with the primary one being the homebrew energy being mostly focused on new hardware and utility software. It's actually a fantastic community, just one with minimal focus on (new) gaming these days.

 

I wonder if what is shaping up to be a top quality CRPG, Lawless Legends (which is having a C-64 version made at the same time), once complete, will renew some developmental interest in the platform for gaming from more people. If done right, it could make quite the splash.

[MarkO]

Regarding VBLANK, it is different between the IIe, IIc and IIgs.

 

 

<< VERY BIG SNIP >>

Thanks for the Clarification and Explanation... ( and the Source Code )

 

 

This Particular Topic has been discussed on this Forum for the last year or so, and there has never seemed to be a clear answer or explanation. I guess as the Phrase Goes, "Try it and Find Out..." worked the best here...

 

 

 

As I Recall in the Olden Days, IBM's CGA Displays had a lot of Snow, when you directly accessed the Memory Mapped Display Buffer, if the Vertical Blanking was not in effect.. The Apple doesn't really have any Issue like that, but the graphics could look a little skewed if the Screen was updated in the middle of you manipulating the Pixel Positions..

 

I would think with really good timing, that you could "draw" the Updated graphic Positions ( manipulating the Pixel Positions

), just After the Computer had Scanned the Memory to Display them, so instead of having a Very Small Window to make the Updates, you could do the updates ALL the Time, just making sure to Do Them, just After the Computer Scanned a given Memory Location to Display it on the Screen...

 

 

MarkO

[MarkO]

<< SNIP >>

 

Part of the problem i've got is that Apple IIs are almost as rare as rocking horse poo over here, so the prices are completely out of my league and importing isn't really an option; no real hardware means i can't test for myself.

I would send you an Apple ][e System, but All I have are NTSC ones... It would be worth it to see some more, New Game Development on the old Apple ][...

 

MarkO

[MarkO]

I suppose it's because we Apple ][ gamers are a tiny minority of Apple ][ fans.

 

Again, the Apple II community had a ton of gamers and games back in the day, so it's a bit strange that the modern day community in general is more or less content with playing those same games rather than creating new ones. I mean, there are plenty of great ways to play Apple II games, and great repositories online (and even very mature Browser-based ways), but the creation of new games is sluggish. It's a shadow of what computers like the Commodore 64, Atari 8-bit, and many others get. It's also not really a technical limitation either, because the ZX Spectrum gets plenty of homebrew gaming love. It's probably a combination of factors like we discussed, with the primary one being the homebrew energy being mostly focused on new hardware and utility software. It's actually a fantastic community, just one with minimal focus on (new) gaming these days.

 

I wonder if what is shaping up to be a top quality CRPG, Lawless Legends (which is having a C-64 version made at the same time), once complete, will renew some developmental interest in the platform for gaming from more people. If done right, it could make quite the splash.

I will present my thoughts on this issue, as a Long Time Apple ][ Users..

 

I have been using the Apple ][ since JAN-192, at my High School where they had Three of them, then later I bought an Apple ][e with a friend.

 

 

I found that I wasn't very good at most computer games, I did play a few, like Castle Wolfenstein and Load Runner, and played all the way through Hitch-Hikers Guide, Once, in about 1986..

 

I found I liked Programming and Problem Solving on the Computer.. Even today, I am now into Robotics and Control Systems...

 

 

I would guess that most Early Computer users, especially Apple ][ Users, are more into Making the Computer do something.. Rather than playing Games on it.. So you get this group of Computer users that are into the machines rather than the game software.

 

I can only speak for myself, but I would like to see Lawless-Legends up and running, not because I am into to games, but because seeing Ray-Casting on the Apple][ and C64 would be very cool...

 

MarkO

Edited June 30, 2014 by MarkO

[MarkO]

<< SNIP >>

 

For Flapple Bird (Flappy Bird on Apple II), I have code that handles all 3 VBLANK types. You can check out the code that does it here:

https://github.com/digarok/flapple/blob/master/src/flapple.s

 

 

<< SNIP >>

 

Flapple Bird got mentioned on The Retro Computing Roundtable, on 08-JUN-2014, in Episode 76.

[magnusfalkirk]

I will present my thoughts on this issue, as a Long Time Apple ][ Users..

 

I have been using the Apple ][ since JAN-192, at my High School where they had Three of them, then later I bought an Apple ][e with a friend.

 

 

I found that I wasn't very good at most computer games, I did play a few, like Castle Wolfenstein and Load Runner, and played all the way through Hitch-Hikers Guide, Once, in about 1986..

 

I found I liked Programming and Problem Solving on the Computer.. Even today, I am now into Robotics and Control Systems...

 

 

I would guess that most Early Computer users, especially Apple ][ Users, are more into Making the Computer do something.. Rather than playing Games on it.. So you get this group of Computer users that are into the machines rather than the game software.

 

I can only speak for myself, but I would like to see Lawless-Legends up and running, not because I am into to games, but because seeing Ray-Casting on the Apple][ and C64 would be very cool...

 

MarkO

 

Here are some comments from another long-time Apple II user. I started in 1981 with an Apple II+ w/48k ram (I had to use my portable tv as a monitor because after buying the computer and disk drive I didn't have the money for a monitor). I bought a few games with the computer and eventually got lots more games from friends (so yes I got lots of games for the Apple II in an unconventional way). I didn't start using the computer for anything other than gaming until I bought a copy of Newsroom in 1985.

 

I eventually bought an "enhanced" //e and programs like Print Shop, Print Magic, Publish It! and of course Appleworks. I ran a newsletter for a Star Trek fan club and other things. I still tended to play more games than do "serious" things with the II, so maybe I was a minority but I really enjoyed playing games on the Apple II. Thanks to things like the Asimov Archive I've been able to download games that I only heard about back in the day and thanks to things like the CFFA3000 I can run them on the real hardware without having to transfer them to real disks unless I want to.

 

I'd like to eventually try to write some games of my own for the II, and that will probably happen down the road since I'm working toward a computer science degree. There are a few programs that will allow people to create their own games, such as The Arcade Machine, Gary Kitchen's Game Maker and then there are things like Adventure Creator, Adventure Writer and of course Eamon.

 

Just my II cents worth.

Edited July 5, 2014 by magnusfalkirk

[classicgamer_27330]

I've relived my childhood on by playing roms. One I simply can't find is "The New Game Show" I have The Game Show, but this one has more subjects to choose from and like 5000% better graphics/colors

[Nebulon]

I'm not a programmer.

 

However, if I were to sit down and learn programming, I'd learn it on the Apple II. I think it's a great place to start and I really like the 'feel' of the machine and the way most games run on it.

 

Years ago, I tried to teach myself Assembler on the Color Computer 2. I couldn't grasp it. Friends of mine were programming assembler on the 6809 and 68000 since they were quite young. They have nice things to say about those chips, so those still intrigue me. However, I think the Apple II still delivers a lot of 'fun' for the specification.

 

There are days that I think about what it would be like to write code for computers with more custom hardware (like the C64 or Atari 8-bit machines). However, I think there's something really interesting about writing for a machine the Apple II that is so simple (in a good way) and close to the hardware. Kind of like the old analog synthesizers. They won't stop doing something until you tell them to stop. They might not even have storage memory, and they tend to drift. But that's what makes them interesting. Everything's there at your fingertips. Nothing is hidden from the user/performer.

 

Again, the Apple II strikes me as a platform that is understandable and has tons of great in-depth documentation. I too am surprised that it doesn't have a massive homebrew community. Perhaps people keep thinking of it as "the computer that ran that spreadsheet" rather than "the machine with lots of fun games on it".

[The Usotsuki]

You may have hit the nail on the head.

[TMR]

There are days that I think about what it would be like to write code for computers with more custom hardware (like the C64 or Atari 8-bit machines). However, I think there's something really interesting about writing for a machine the Apple II that is so simple (in a good way) and close to the hardware.

It's... interesting. Everything has to be done in software and, on a stock machine at least, there isn't exactly a lot of CPU grunt lying around to do that. It doesn't help that there isn't "one true way" to do base level stuff like sync to the vertical blank (something that most other 8-bits provide out of the box so folks like me from other platforms feel a little lost without it) so everything coded needs a test on a range of different models to be sure it flies.

 

And then there's you get to the question of which (if any) add-ons to support...

 

Again, the Apple II strikes me as a platform that is understandable and has tons of great in-depth documentation. I too am surprised that it doesn't have a massive homebrew community. Perhaps people keep thinking of it as "the computer that ran that spreadsheet" rather than "the machine with lots of fun games on it".

i've yet to talk to an Apple II owner who thought of the machine that way and, if there's going to be a homebrew community, that's where the majority of it will be coming from.

 

To my mind (and insert the usual disclaimers about being an "outsider" to the Apple II community as a C64 bunny and not based in the US) the question is more about why people like yourself haven't considered going back to learning assembly language and writing something? The toolchains are, at least to my experience, a bit clunky compared to other 8-bits and the documentation probably isn't as helpful as you might think from a non-programming perspective (the Mockingboard information i used for my test code was useless for anyone who can't read 6502 in hex) but it's out there and there are people willing to help if you get stuck.

[ianoid]

I think that there are plenty of Apple II gamers. But I do agree that it's odd that there are so few Apple II game programmers active. Consider also that an enormous number of major developers in the video game industry cut their teeth on the Apple II, more than other systems at the time. Large numbers of those who were Apple II game programming inclined went on to careers in coding.

 

The more public active communities don't seem very interested in gaming, and I think that pushes us gamers away from the public scene. That being said, I'm happy to chat about whatevers here at AA where I don't have to pretend I'm a really smart engineer.

[Keatah]

I believe the best and most complete list of software is not a list at all - but instead the archive repositories themselves. While only about 40-50% complete, they are actively updated daily with new arrivals. Software is being added all the time from all angles. Add in a want-list or not-yet-posted list for icing on the cake.

 

---

 

I think the focus is on everything "nintendo" these days. I also think that programmers have grown up and now want to make use of things like custom chips and all that. And then there is the ability to sell and make money. Apple II + Games = Warez. And there are no 2 ways about it. No pun intended. Apple gamers are so used to getting everything for free and they place little or no value on originals. That's a big disincentive. And nobody is interested in buying floppy disks today anyways.

 

If you look at cartridge systems they're comparatively hot sellers, even if the rom is freely available. People still want the cart+dox+box combo.

[carlsson]

For what it's worth, Tanrunomad's page now lists 2844 games for the Apple, last updated January 12, 2017 if I get the date stamp right. I suppose the list is fairly free of duplicates. It still is a long way from 10,000 or 15,000 titles but he has added more than 1000 titles in the past three years.

 

http://tanrunomad.com/apple-ii-games/

 

I haven't looked up if there are other archives/lists that are even more complete than his. I'll leave that as an exercise to the reader to find out.

[R.Cade]

Apple lied in their marketing? Say it ain't so...

 

They are infamous for it. Look at all the ads saying they were the "#1 Computer" and such nonsense in the late 70's. They never were the top seller, never.