Intellivision Flashback Controller Adapters

[Bill Loguidice]

They had an actual ColecoVision controller there. I have no idea why they changed the shaft length for the worse. I don't believe they had overlays there, but they at least had a controller there where they could test their overlays on. I can only assume that because the directive to make the controllers cross-compatible was missed, the thought to make the overlays cross-compatible was not there.

[TrekMD]

I signed the list at CGE but, just in case, count me in for one.

[+nurmix]

They had an actual ColecoVision controller there. I have no idea why they changed the shaft length for the worse. I don't believe they had overlays there, but they at least had a controller there where they could test their overlays on. I can only assume that because the directive to make the controllers cross-compatible was missed, the thought to make the overlays cross-compatible was not there.

It seems to me like the whole idea of controller compatibility with the original consoles was WAY down on the priorities list. But had them made them compatible from the start, they could have opened up an additional market of selling replacement controllers to original console owners.

[Bill Loguidice]

It seems to me like the whole idea of controller compatibility with the original consoles was WAY down on the priorities list. But had them made them compatible from the start, they could have opened up an additional market of selling replacement controllers to original console owners.

 

The fact is it was a directive from the top from day one, and they were well aware of the after market for additional controller sales, despite how small that would actually be in relation to the total market for the consoles themselves. Somewhere along the way to engineering the directive got obfuscated and by the time the error was discovered, it was too late. The plan at this point is to fix that for future products since it was always their intention anyway.

[+nurmix]

 

The fact is it was a directive from the top from day one, and they were well aware of the after market for additional controller sales, despite how small that would actually be in relation to the total market for the consoles themselves. Somewhere along the way to engineering the directive got obfuscated and by the time the error was discovered, it was too late. The plan at this point is to fix that for future products since it was always their intention anyway.

Well that's good to hear. Thanks, Bill.

[wolfy62]

It seems to me like the whole idea of controller compatibility with the original consoles was WAY down on the priorities list. But had them made them compatible from the start, they could have opened up an additional market of selling replacement controllers to original console owners.

It works for me that you made those great adapters!

[wolfy62]

 

The fact is it was a directive from the top from day one, and they were well aware of the after market for additional controller sales, despite how small that would actually be in relation to the total market for the consoles themselves. Somewhere along the way to engineering the directive got obfuscated and by the time the error was discovered, it was too late. The plan at this point is to fix that for future products since it was always their intention anyway.

I suggest that obfuscated becomes the word of today for tomorrow!

[+intvsteve]

It would be interesting to know what the sales goals are for these. Ten thousand units? A hundred thousand? A million? Obviously the higher the expected total unit sales, the less important the controller compatibility with original hardware becomes. Selling an extra thousand or two controllers is a pretty big deal if you only sell 10-20k units and a pair of controllers sells for, say $15. But if you sell 100k-200k flashbacks, meh. Good to have extras for people that wear out the controllers playing their flashback. Then the controllers sold to fix up old consoles isn't as important -- at least by the financial numbers.

 

Of course that's a tricky game to play. Good word-of-mouth from 'Nerddom' and goodwill with same is valuable. Upset that crowd too much and for more niche systems like ours, it can sink later follow-up efforts.

 

Taking at face value that this is truly just bungled communications (dare one say that .... wait for it .... the wires got crossed), and because it does seem that the intent was to deliver a product to please 'Nerddom,' a couple interesting items shake out:

 

• A new, albeit limited, market has emerged for adapters
• A new, undesirable, challenge has arisen for what to do regarding a running change and controller compatibility
• For a Flashback II, a similar compatibility challenge will exist as well

Given the obvious care put into this project, it's clear to me that this was an unfortunate accident. It'll be interesting to see if and how it's addressed.

Edited October 2, 2014 by intvsteve

[IntellivisionDude]

I hope this isn't a stupid question but if they do release spare controllers on their own what pinout will they use? If they use the fixed pinout so they work with the actual Intellivision then they would be incompatible with the flashback right? Marketing wise that would be very confusing for customers unless they also come with an adapter to fix the issue. And if they sell 1 million units (just for argument) that would make it more confusing for the average consumer.

[+intvsteve]

I hope this isn't a stupid question but if they do release spare controllers on their own what pinout will they use? If they use the fixed pinout so they work with the actual Intellivision then they would be incompatible with the flashback right? Marketing wise that would be very confusing for customers unless they also come with an adapter to fix the issue. And if they sell 1 million units (just for argument) that would make it more confusing for the average consumer.

Exactly ... that's why I'm intrigued by how this conundrum will be addressed - if at all.

 

Honestly, our community is:

• Ecstatic that BRAND NEW, EFFIN AWESOME Intellivision controllers are available at all
• Is quite capable of solving this problem on its own, either via nurmix's talent and ambition, or by cracking out our own soldering irons
• Yes, a little disappointed with the miss on the 'drop-in' compatible replacement controllers, but joyous that THEY WILL STILL WORK WOO HOO!

So I guess my point is: Don't be surprised if AtGames sees the best solution to this is to do nothing. The community has expressed its disappointment, but already embraced solutions provided by the community itself. And, by doing nothing, it also saves money and avoids the problem of confusing customers who could give a flying you-know-what about the original system. Such customers would just be upset that the controllers on the FB they got Junior for XMas don't work on the one they got for their nephew six months later.

 

It's far more valuable -- and important -- to address issues with the emulator itself. If any running changes happen on this edition, emulator fixes would be the most important, as they truly improve the accuracy of the experience and fix actual bugs affecting gameplay of the product itself. AFAIK, the product doesn't claim the controllers are compatible with the original system. Thanks to Bill, Nurmix, and Keith Robinson, we've had some great access and insight to some of the sausage-making that most consumers of the product don't care about at all. (Which, in case we haven't recognized already, has been a wise move from the start -- again, thanks to those of you who've shared all this with us!)

 

Now, it's maybe a little more reasonable to hope for a controller 'patch' in a FB2... but there would still be some compatibility risk. I.e. if the controllers will fit into a Sears or Intellivision II, they'd also fit into the FB1, and not work there. So don't hold your breath on it ever really being fixed is what the realist should expect.

[pimpmaul69]

Exactly ... that's why I'm intrigued by how this conundrum will be addressed - if at all.

 

Honestly, our community is:

• Ecstatic that BRAND NEW, EFFIN AWESOME Intellivision controllers are available at all
• Is quite capable of solving this problem on its own, either via nurmix's talent and ambition, or by cracking out our own soldering irons
• Yes, a little disappointed with the miss on the 'drop-in' compatible replacement controllers, but joyous that THEY WILL STILL WORK WOO HOO!

So I guess my point is: Don't be surprised if AtGames sees the best solution to this is to do nothing. The community has expressed its disappointment, but already embraced solutions provided by the community itself. And, by doing nothing, it also saves money and avoids the problem of confusing customers who could give a flying you-know-what about the original system. Such customers would just be upset that the controllers on the FB they got Junior for XMas don't work on the one they got for their nephew six months later.

 

It's far more valuable -- and important -- to address issues with the emulator itself. If any running changes happen on this edition, emulator fixes would be the most important, as they truly improve the accuracy of the experience and fix actual bugs affecting gameplay of the product itself. AFAIK, the product doesn't claim the controllers are compatible with the original system. Thanks to Bill, Nurmix, and Keith Robinson, we've had some great access and insight to some of the sausage-making that most consumers of the product don't care about at all. (Which, in case we haven't recognized already, has been a wise move from the start -- again, thanks to those of you who've shared all this with us!)

 

Now, it's maybe a little more reasonable to hope for a controller 'patch' in a FB2... but there would still be some compatibility risk. I.e. if the controllers will fit into a Sears or Intellivision II, they'd also fit into the FB1, and not work there. So don't hold your breath on it ever really being fixed is what the realist should expect.

Old controller side buttons were like trying to cut cold butter with a spatula. New buttons were like cutting warm butter with a knife, so smooth. I will never play with an old controller ever again.

[+Lathe26]

Thanks intvsteve. I've been wondering the same thing.

[freewheel]

Indeed. And more so with the Colecovision; the 'joy-stub' is now a 'joy-nub' - the shaft is way shorter, which I can only assume is because the 20-something year old hardware engineers never actually played a real Colecovision, and they assumed people use their thumb on the top of the stick (like a d-pad), and not with the 3 finger claw grip like we all did back in the day.

 

Oddly enough, I just spent a huge chunk of time playing with an original controller for the first time in a lot more years than I can count, and discovered something. I've been using Atari sticks or Genesis controllers for so long, but I picked up a CV with just stock controllers and wasn't home and had to test/clean (and therefore play) a LOT. And what did I notice? I ended up thumbsticking most of the time. I've always rather loathed the original CV controllers and with my hands not being what they used to be (plus 25+ years of D-pads), it just feels natural and easy to use it with your thumb. I'm actually kinda looking forward to the shorter stick as nothing could be worse than replicating the exact feel of the original. I'd take a 5200 stick over it anyday.

 

As far as the chatter on the controller pinout problems, the more I read Bill's comments the more I realize exactly what happened. Keep in mind, they're not exactly designing, prototyping, and most importantly BUILDING these things entirely in-house. At some point the powers-that-be had to send a final doc over to China for manufacture (and quite possibly final design and prototyping). If the original design spec said "keep it compatible with the original controllers", even to the point of outlining pinouts, there is a huge amount of room there for interpretation, typos, or simple negligence. After all, if the controller works on the FB but the engineers in China have never even heard of a CV, why would they test it out much further? Finally the proto or final design comes back for testing, and oh shit! Incompatible pinouts. But by this point you have your retail customers expecting orders by date X, and you have to make a decision - order the shipment as is or miss a retail deadline. Ie: is it worse to piss off a couple hundred retro fanatics, or my entire downstream supply chain who is about to hand over a 6-7 figure order?

 

And quite frankly I can see it getting to the point where it WAS tested and prototyped, and someone in the final factory assembly just plain goofed. And then 100,000 of the units were sitting there waiting to go. Do you start everything over from scratch?

 

Yeah, it sucks. But it's not a complete "omg this unit is practically worthless" mistake. I've seen very expensive electronics hit the shelves that had such major problems that even basic functionality was broken. Hello, Apple. So I can see At Games saying "fuck it, let's ship and fix in Rev 2".

 

Edited October 2, 2014 by freeweed

[+intvsteve]

Thanks intvsteve. I've been wondering the same thing.

All I'm doing here is speculating, of course, but it's a realistic expectation, IMNSHO.

[+intvsteve]

 

Oddly enough, I just spent a huge chunk of time playing with an original controller for the first time in a lot more years than I can count, and discovered something. I've been using Atari sticks or Genesis controllers for so long, but I picked up a CV with just stock controllers and wasn't home and had to test/clean (and therefore play) a LOT. And what did I notice? I ended up thumbsticking most of the time. I've always rather loathed the original CV controllers and with my hands not being what they used to be (plus 25+ years of D-pads), it just feels natural and easy to use it with your thumb. I'm actually kinda looking forward to the shorter stick as nothing could be worse than replicating the exact feel of the original. I'd take a 5200 stick over it anyday.

 

As far as the chatter on the controller pinout problems, the more I read Bill's comments the more I realize exactly what happened. Keep in mind, they're not exactly designing, prototyping, and most importantly BUILDING these things entirely in-house. At some point the powers-that-be had to send a final doc over to China for manufacture (and quite possibly final design and prototyping). If the original design spec said "keep it compatible with the original controllers", even to the point of outlining pinouts, there is a huge amount of room there for interpretation, typos, or simple negligence. After all, if the controller works on the FB but the engineers in China have never even heard of a CV, why would they test it out much further? Finally the proto or final design comes back for testing, and oh shit! Incompatible pinouts. But by this point you have your retail customers expecting orders by date X, and you have to make a decision - order the shipment as is or miss a retail deadline. Ie: is it worse to piss off a couple hundred retro fanatics, or my entire downstream supply chain who is about to hand over a 6-7 figure order?

 

And quite frankly I can see it getting to the point where it WAS tested and prototyped, and someone in the final factory assembly just plain goofed. And then 100,000 of the units were sitting there waiting to go. Do you start everything over from scratch?

 

Yeah, it sucks. But it's not a complete "omg this unit is practically worthless" mistake. I've seen very expensive electronics hit the shelves that had such major problems that even basic functionality was broken. Hello, Apple. So I can see At Games saying "fuck it, let's ship and fix in Rev 2".

 

Yep.

[TrickyMoon]

Please count me in for two of these!!

[Bill Loguidice]

It would be interesting to know what the sales goals are for these. Ten thousand units? A hundred thousand? A million? Obviously the higher the expected total unit sales, the less important the controller compatibility with original hardware becomes. Selling an extra thousand or two controllers is a pretty big deal if you only sell 10-20k units and a pair of controllers sells for, say $15. But if you sell 100k-200k flashbacks, meh. Good to have extras for people that wear out the controllers playing their flashback. Then the controllers sold to fix up old consoles isn't as important -- at least by the financial numbers.

 

Of course that's a tricky game to play. Good word-of-mouth from 'Nerddom' and goodwill with same is valuable. Upset that crowd too much and for more niche systems like ours, it can sink later follow-up efforts.

 

Considering the present market realities, my estimate would be at a few hundred thousand or so. That does indeed make things like controller compatibility, SD card support, etc., less of a pressing concern, since you're probably talking hundreds to at best the low thousands of people who genuinely care enough about that to sway their purchasing decision.

 

As for your second statement about "Nerddom," my opinion has evolved about that over the recent years to the point where I've come to believe that there's simply no pleasing a certain segment of our industry and they get clear joy out of picking apart every possible thing and lose all perspective. There's a reason why most companies ignore that type of noise, no matter how vocal that minority is, and how much their negativity gets amplified out of proportion.

[Bill Loguidice]

I hope this isn't a stupid question but if they do release spare controllers on their own what pinout will they use? If they use the fixed pinout so they work with the actual Intellivision then they would be incompatible with the flashback right? Marketing wise that would be very confusing for customers unless they also come with an adapter to fix the issue. And if they sell 1 million units (just for argument) that would make it more confusing for the average consumer.

 

At this point, it's my understanding that there will only be new controllers if an Intellivision/ColecoVision Flashback 2/2015 ever get made. There's some potential for USB versions of these controllers for the upcoming digital offerings and, while the Intellivision controller design is fine as-is, I'm pushing hard to get a redesign of the ColecoVision controller if such a thing were to happen.

 

In any case, if the Intellivision/ColecoVision Flashback 2/2015 do get made and they do go ahead with a redesign that allows for cross compatibility, then I don't think it would necessarily be a major source of confusion for owners of the present models if they had a thought to try anduse the new controllers. They could simply label them "only for use with x, y,z" or something to that affect. In any case, I guess we'll see. Likely the first thing that would happen is for AtGames to make additional controllers (with present issues included) available on their Website for those who need replacements. Where we go from there I suppose is still not decided since everything is still so new.

[Bill Loguidice]

 

Oddly enough, I just spent a huge chunk of time playing with an original controller for the first time in a lot more years than I can count, and discovered something. I've been using Atari sticks or Genesis controllers for so long, but I picked up a CV with just stock controllers and wasn't home and had to test/clean (and therefore play) a LOT. And what did I notice? I ended up thumbsticking most of the time. I've always rather loathed the original CV controllers and with my hands not being what they used to be (plus 25+ years of D-pads), it just feels natural and easy to use it with your thumb. I'm actually kinda looking forward to the shorter stick as nothing could be worse than replicating the exact feel of the original. I'd take a 5200 stick over it anyday.

 

As far as the chatter on the controller pinout problems, the more I read Bill's comments the more I realize exactly what happened. Keep in mind, they're not exactly designing, prototyping, and most importantly BUILDING these things entirely in-house. At some point the powers-that-be had to send a final doc over to China for manufacture (and quite possibly final design and prototyping). If the original design spec said "keep it compatible with the original controllers", even to the point of outlining pinouts, there is a huge amount of room there for interpretation, typos, or simple negligence. After all, if the controller works on the FB but the engineers in China have never even heard of a CV, why would they test it out much further? Finally the proto or final design comes back for testing, and oh shit! Incompatible pinouts. But by this point you have your retail customers expecting orders by date X, and you have to make a decision - order the shipment as is or miss a retail deadline. Ie: is it worse to piss off a couple hundred retro fanatics, or my entire downstream supply chain who is about to hand over a 6-7 figure order?

 

And quite frankly I can see it getting to the point where it WAS tested and prototyped, and someone in the final factory assembly just plain goofed. And then 100,000 of the units were sitting there waiting to go. Do you start everything over from scratch?

 

Yeah, it sucks. But it's not a complete "omg this unit is practically worthless" mistake. I've seen very expensive electronics hit the shelves that had such major problems that even basic functionality was broken. Hello, Apple. So I can see At Games saying "fuck it, let's ship and fix in Rev 2".

 

 

I actually didn't mind the original ColecoVision controllers back in the day and can't really see how you can use them with a thumb. I can't even use the Flashback design with a thumb. I will say that with a longer joystick shaft and a ball top, suddenly the ColecoVision controllers become a joy to use. I'm not sure if AtGames will ever do a ball top, but, at minimum, I think extending the shaft will solve most of the comfort issues and make things like hitting diagonals easier. That to me is priority one, then priority two is to make the overlay cavity (and overlays) the same.

 

As for the manufacturing issue, exactly what happened was that the issue was discovered too late. There's only a certain window before something can be changed before it needs to go to manufacturing to meet retailer deadlines. It was tested, it worked, etc., so there was no reason to suspect anything was amiss. The company has promised more rigorous testing for future iterations, and I'll certainly help them in any way that I can with that. I know others are also keen on being more rigorous with the QC for the other products as well.

[bikeguychicago]

Indeed. And more so with the Colecovision; the 'joy-stub' is now a 'joy-nub' - the shaft is way shorter, which I can only assume is because the 20-something year old hardware engineers never actually played a real Colecovision, and they assumed people use their thumb on the top of the stick (like a d-pad), and not with the 3 finger claw grip like we all did back in the day. Doing it that way now can pinch your finger when going in the UP direction.

 

And even though the controller is physically smaller than the original, the overlays are bigger, making them incompatible with the original controllers.

 

It's like.. really!? Do they even test these things?

 

Seems like Willie may need to make a reverse adapter too (to use the original Coleco controllers on the Flashback) so he can use the Amiga controllers they always talk highly of. I may have used a CV once in my life before so I have no frame of reference on which to base an opinion.

[+nurmix]

 

Seems like Willie may need to make a reverse adapter too (to use the original Coleco controllers on the Flashback) so he can use the Amiga controllers they always talk highly of. I may have used a CV once in my life before so I have no frame of reference on which to base an opinion.

If I get some free time I'll see if I can create an adapter that works for the Colecovision Flashback. I'm not sure if the internals of the new CV controller are electrically compatible with the old ones, as I haven't taken one apart yet. Otherwise, I'm sure Willy will make some.

[+intvsteve]

 

Considering the present market realities, my estimate would be at a few hundred thousand or so. That does indeed make things like controller compatibility, SD card support, etc., less of a pressing concern, since you're probably talking hundreds to at best the low thousands of people who genuinely care enough about that to sway their purchasing decision.

 

As for your second statement about "Nerddom," my opinion has evolved about that over the recent years to the point where I've come to believe that there's simply no pleasing a certain segment of our industry and they get clear joy out of picking apart every possible thing and lose all perspective. There's a reason why most companies ignore that type of noise, no matter how vocal that minority is, and how much their negativity gets amplified out of proportion.

I completely agree with that assessment. Unfortunately, it may be one of the identity markers of this age. :/ We've even got a burgeoning set of vocabulary to describe it.

[JoeM_Intellivision]

Thanks for info Bill.

[gavvv]

 

Seems like Willie may need to make a reverse adapter too (to use the original Coleco controllers on the Flashback) so he can use the Amiga controllers they always talk highly of. I may have used a CV once in my life before so I have no frame of reference on which to base an opinion.

 

Spectravideo Quick Shot III is the only way to go on original CV systems

 

gavv

[RetroDude75]

I'll take 2 please