firestorm Posted September 28, 2014 Share Posted September 28, 2014 (edited) Two weeks ago I bought NTSC Atari 800XL on ebay. I was always interested how those games I loved plays and looks on NTSC. I managed to find a monitor witch can display NTSC. Very cheaply for 45£ I acquired Sony PVN-14L4 Broadcast Monitor. Wow, what a resolution, colors fidelity, linearity. https://cvp.com/pdf/sony_pvm-14_lseries_brch.pdf Next thing I'v done was to adjust color pot on my NTSC Atari 800XL. I followed Atari 400/800 Field Service Manual. Using Colorbars option from Salt 2.05 cartrige you have to make sure that "the color bars above and and below the reference bar identical" Picture in manual points that bar 15 and one below reference bar (thin grey line) has to be same color. I found that you have to wait about 15 minutest to let computer warm up before you perform adjustment. OK, but there is small problem because Atari 400/800 Field Service Manual says "The color bars directly above and below the reference bar (thin grey line) should be the same color (golden rod)" What to do? I have tried Phase adjustment in my monitor and come out with this. But wait a minute, it looks like something I'm familiar with... A PAL to be continued... Salt 2.04.xex SALT205.rom.bin Edited September 28, 2014 by firestorm 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grevle Posted September 28, 2014 Share Posted September 28, 2014 Thats a nice monitor, is it 14 inch ?. You know how old this monitor is ?. Its a crt screen and may be 10 years or probably more ? Colors can drift a bit on crt displays, as capacitators get older they may be changing specs a little, it may affect colors a bit i believe, but im no expert on the matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grevle Posted September 28, 2014 Share Posted September 28, 2014 I tried taking a picture of my Panasonic 14 inch crt tv. this crt tv is a Pal but supports Ntsc also. its not so easy to take good photo , bur heres one showing the colors bars of the Salt Cartigde. Using A XEGS Ntsc. im realy not able to get a proper photo of the screen it could have been better adjustet for brightness, contrast, color, etc. Heres also a image of my Ataris. 130xe Pal on top. And Xegs Ntsc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firestorm Posted September 28, 2014 Author Share Posted September 28, 2014 (edited) @BioFreeze Thank you for your pictures I know is hard to take good one. I'm using SLR camera set for White Balance 6500K to match monitor's setting illuminant D65. Using shutter speed 1/8s and slightly defocusing to avoid moire Have you got Phase setting on your TV? Try to play with it. You have to wait about 15 minutes before taking picture to let computer warm up. I noticed that color is changing. My monitor got beam current feedback circuit witch eliminates white balance drift (see the link). https://cvp.com/pdf/sony_pvm-14_lseries_brch.pdf Edited September 28, 2014 by firestorm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firestorm Posted September 28, 2014 Author Share Posted September 28, 2014 Missing from my first post, page from Atari 400/800 Field Service Manual Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firestorm Posted September 28, 2014 Author Share Posted September 28, 2014 And is time for comparison well known games NTSC Phase 0 NTSC Phase -40 PAL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firestorm Posted September 28, 2014 Author Share Posted September 28, 2014 NTSC Phase 0 NTSC Phase -40 PAL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firestorm Posted September 28, 2014 Author Share Posted September 28, 2014 NTSC Phase 0 NTSC Phase -40 PAL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firestorm Posted September 28, 2014 Author Share Posted September 28, 2014 And surprise, Pole Position NTSC Phase 0 NTSC Phase -40 PAL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grevle Posted September 28, 2014 Share Posted September 28, 2014 Ok . I would likt to add more photos but i only have a cheep Digital camera, it isnt good enogh for taking photos of a crt screen. But experience i can say that some games differ more in color between Pal and NTSC, Caverns of Mars Differs the color of the cavern itself a lot. and also Star Raiders (the color when shield is on is quite different).Other games differs the colors between Pal and Ntsc in various degrees. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firestorm Posted September 28, 2014 Author Share Posted September 28, 2014 (edited) @BioFreeze Have you tried to adjust Phase setting on your TV for NTSC? Edited September 28, 2014 by firestorm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grevle Posted September 28, 2014 Share Posted September 28, 2014 Yes , It has a adjusment for Color and Adjustment for Color balance, and i set it about mid settings, seem to work good enough. But games like Caverns of Mars , And Star Raiders should have quite a different color for Pal and NTSC i think. same result can be when using in emulator, Depends on color palette of the emulator. I think some games might differ more between Pal and Ntsc because these games uses the colors that differ most in color space between the 2 color systems Pal and Ntsc, but im not sure. Can you test Caverns of mars on your setup and see the difference yurself ?. On Pal the cavern is almost pink, and on Ntsc the Cavern is more red. Star Raiders when shield is on should be almost like green on Pal and More dark bluegreenish on NTSC That Is Pal Computer on Pal TV and NTSC Computer on Ntsc mode Tv. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firestorm Posted September 28, 2014 Author Share Posted September 28, 2014 OK, have you got River Raid? Can you adjust it by using color balance to look like on PAL? Look I started from adjusting my NTSC Atari 800XL like written in Atari 400/800 Field Service Manual and it is starting point. After that you should have results like mine. You can have Caverns of Mars red when your color balance is on 0 and pink one like PAL when it is on minus something, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grevle Posted September 28, 2014 Share Posted September 28, 2014 Yes ! Amazing On Ntsc Atari when Color balance is about center (Normal) Caverns of Mars have red cave, When color balance is set low Caverns of mars cave seem to take on the Pal color of almost Pink Color.. That is the cave when playing the game. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firestorm Posted September 28, 2014 Author Share Posted September 28, 2014 (edited) Now you getting me What I found is that for some reason Atari was using two color sets for games on NTSC. Give you example, Pole Position looks nice on Phase/Color Balance 0 and for Pal it has color correction in program. But just look... Green gold? Interesting, hmm... Oh it's better... and so on 1 Games designed on NTSC with minus something adjustmet don't need color correction for PAL in program. Many publishers like Activision, Datasoft or Synapse, where using only this minus setting witch is described in Atari 400/800 Field Service Manual. 2 Games designed on PAL don't need color adjustments for NTSC just TV should be set for minus something Phase/Color Balance Assembloids XE on NTSC Phase -40 Assembloids XE on NTSC Phase 0 Assembloids XE on PAL Edited September 28, 2014 by firestorm 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grevle Posted September 28, 2014 Share Posted September 28, 2014 That is very interesting, I have never knew this before. So if one has the option of Color Balance/Phase setting one can say Play on Pal Atari and get the Ntsc color when playing ? hmm sounds amazing. One other difference between Pal and Ntsc is the frequenzy of 50Hz Pal vs 60hz Ntsc. To me it seems the old classics plays best on 60hz ntsc beacuse of the faster game speed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firestorm Posted September 28, 2014 Author Share Posted September 28, 2014 No It won't work with PAL but NTSC can have PAL look. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+MrFish Posted September 28, 2014 Share Posted September 28, 2014 Very cheaply for 45£ I acquired Sony PVN-14L4 Broadcast Monitor. Wow, what a resolution, colors fidelity, linearity. https://cvp.com/pdf/sony_pvm-14_lseries_brch.pdf Even more wow when you plug it into that S-Video socket. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey Z Posted September 28, 2014 Share Posted September 28, 2014 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YIQ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YUV difference between YIQ and YUV (NTSC and PAL) color spaces is a 33 degree phase difference. So that pretty much explains it I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firestorm Posted September 28, 2014 Author Share Posted September 28, 2014 The point is: Why Atari used 2 color palettes for NTSC? Why Activision was using palette described in Atari Field Service Manual witch required set Phase/Color Balance to minus something? Why people from NTSC world have to play Pitfall with green logs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faicuai Posted September 28, 2014 Share Posted September 28, 2014 (edited) ...Quite interesting topic. Our machine's Color fidelity and tuning / optimization is a KEY topic (and easily overlooked by many). You are playing with a multi-variable equation, there. The fundamental problem is that I have NO objective / quantitative idea of what Atari color REFERENCE is (in other words, what specific color/hue/space coordinates could accurately describe what Atari's original design / color-responsive was, in an equally metrically defined NTSC space). Therefore: 1. I can't really know what Atari engineers were looking / targeting, nor the monitor-equipment they used to visualize output. 2. Therefore, I can't really measure how off is our machine's as-is color-output from the above reference. 3. Therefore, I can't really calibrate our viewing devices / monitors, in order to replicate the inspection / visualization conditions of Atari engineers. The above are the same colorimetric principles you would use in both professional imaging (photography, video editing, etc.). So back to 2014. Here are some samples in my calibrated setup (e.g. I KNOW what my effective LCD's Temp, black, white points are, in conjunction with Video Processor): 1. Atari 800 + Incognito Color Calibration (SuperSalt), on ViewSonic Vp930b + DVDO iScanHD (sVideo to DVI): 2. Atari 800XL + Ultimate Color Calibration (SuperSalt), on Sony Wega CRT, via direct sVideo: And here is a selection of iconic titles / screens, that we should all recognize, so we can get an idea of how color NSTC reproduction (today) may look like (photo captures were inspected one-by-one against actual screen): ANY other change, here, will adversely affect the Atari's classic "blue screen" in basic / dos, Star Raiders' shield colors, Goonies "purplish" skies, Zaxxon's "blueish-purple" background, Bruce Lee's "blueish-purple" skies, and so on. I believe there are subtle PHASE output differences from Atari-to-Atari, which is why it would be ideal to be able to fully calibrate the signal at the source (computer) with respect a specific / instrumental NTSC analytical color reference (measured via Scope). The only thing we can visually (and decently) adjust is the Color pot, but that's only half of the story. Pushing large adjustments of Color Phase (-40 degrees) in the monitor (or video processor) itself maybe a sign that something is actually wrong. My 0.02c. Edited September 28, 2014 by Faicuai Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firestorm Posted September 28, 2014 Author Share Posted September 28, 2014 (edited) Thank you for your input and for your advise (C 54) how to mod video output for S-video witch I found very useful Your colorbars test from SALT looks like mine. Find above in my previous post fragment of Atari 400/800 Field Service Manual and try adjust Phase/Color Balance to get Golden Rod color from manual. Your Atari outputs green bars at bottom so it is OK. What I'm saying is Atari used to color palettes for NTSC. Look at my picture of Jungle Hunt, do you like brown tree trunk? It won't harm your Atari if you change setting on TV, just experiment a bit, please. Edited September 28, 2014 by firestorm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faicuai Posted September 28, 2014 Share Posted September 28, 2014 (edited) (...) Look at my picture of Jungle Hunt, do you like brown tree trunk? (...). ...Glad to be of (any) help, since this is rather a "plastic / flexible" topic, hard to shape-up. Your point above is at the EPICENTER of this whole thing: 1. For SURE, I found your logically brown tree-trunk (and the branches on the top) quite nice. 2. The problem, here, is that I simply do not know how this game should have looked like in NTSC, on a "properly calibrated" Atari, and its corresponding bench Display. Therefore, and with all the evidence I have today (and inter-dependent effects of adjustments between different titles / games), I will have to accept Jungle Hunt a rather "greenish" in Atari's NTSC space (even if it definitely looks a lot less appealing than your suggested adjustment). Note what happened in Pole Position, though. And I would not be surprised, at all, if Star Raiders, Goonies, Frogger and others do adversely change with -40 on Phase. As an example, Star Raiders shield would look GREEN, which is quite different from the bluish colors they originally had. Again, no real divergence of opinion (with yours), but I am bit more concerned on the across-the-board, big picture, though. (PS: love the monitor. It would have been my choice, putting weight aside. SONY has no substitute.) Edited September 28, 2014 by Faicuai Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firestorm Posted September 29, 2014 Author Share Posted September 29, 2014 (edited) @Faicuai Read my posts from this topic please, I found that Atari had 2 color settings for games on NTSC. I'm not taking away blue shield from Star Raiders that for sure How about color description from basic manuals? How to program game witch has similar loking colors NTSC to PAL and PAL to NTSC? Edited September 29, 2014 by firestorm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firestorm Posted September 29, 2014 Author Share Posted September 29, 2014 Please help mi someone to examine this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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