chinnyhill10 Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Quality was'nt the concern for Firebird, fact they had such a small market to try and sell it to, was for A8 Chimera. Indeed. I think I've told this story before but Ste Pickford told me that the A8 conversions of their Mastertronic/Binary Design games were done as what they called "weekenders". A freelancer would take away all the assets from the other versions and port the game over a weekend for a fixed fee. Typically enough to buy a washing machine or other similar white goods I'm told! Apparently alot of automated tools were used to convert things like graphics. Didn't matter that the game was ugly, bugged and ran like a pig (i.e. A8 Feud) whatever was produced got published. Why? Well the user base wasn't big enough to justify any more resources. It was about leveraging the existing versions to squeeze a few more sales out. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chinnyhill10 Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 In North America the Spectrum was not really a player, so we didn't have "isometric game envy". I just don't recall anyone wanting to play those types of games, or even missing them. The few I did see on the A8 didn't do much for me. Amaroute being the main one I remember. Amaroute is another Pickford game that Binary Design had very quickly ported to the A8. It runs so slowly as a result. With some code optimisation there would be some big improvements. Interestingly for the C64 they opted against an isometric view after having had a devil of a time porting Glider Rider to the C64. Which is why I was stunned to see the A8 version was isometric. They must have ported the A8 version from the Spectrum and not the 6502 code on the C64 version. Most odd! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tezz Posted March 2, 2015 Author Share Posted March 2, 2015 (edited) Amaroute is another Pickford game that Binary Design had very quickly ported to the A8. It runs so slowly as a result. With some code optimisation there would be some big improvements. Interestingly for the C64 they opted against an isometric view after having had a devil of a time porting Glider Rider to the C64. Which is why I was stunned to see the A8 version was isometric. They must have ported the A8 version from the Spectrum and not the 6502 code on the C64 version. Most odd! The c64 isn't fast enough for isometric Amaurote hence the top down reimagining of the game. I don't remember a version of Amaurote for another 6502 based platform so I don't think it was 'ported' per say? During the Spectrum vs C64 debate at last years Replay Expo that I attended (which was just a bit of fun) Ste Pickford used Amaurote in his argument about the c64 being incapable of this Spectrum title. p.s. Check out the Jakub Husak's optimised Amaurote+ for the A8 btw Edited March 2, 2015 by Tezz 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chinnyhill10 Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 (edited) The c64 isn't fast enough for isometric Amaurote hence the top down reimagining of the game. I don't remember a version of Amaurote for another 6502 based platform so I don't think it was 'ported' per say? During the Spectrum vs C64 debate at last year Replay Expo that I attended (which was just a bit of fun) John Pickford used Amaurote in his argument about the c64 being incapable of this Spectrum title. p.s. Check out the Jakub Husak's optimised Amaurote+ for the A8 btw I wasn't aware of the A8 version either until a copy turned up in the box with my new 65XE last year. Here's a cover from Google images. http://www.atarimania.com/8bit/boxes/hi_res/amaurote_k7.jpg As I say, looks the same as the Spectrum version but is much much slower. Edited March 2, 2015 by chinnyhill10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tezz Posted March 2, 2015 Author Share Posted March 2, 2015 Here's a You Tube video of the debate featuring: Jeff Minter, Andy Walker, Ste Pickford, and John Gibson. I voted for the Spectrum at the end although I did wear an AtariAge T-shirt to the event https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EQ8DgG5NFI 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 As I say, looks the same as the Spectrum version but is much much slower. Really? Seeing all those "unoptimized" games on the A8 causes nausea sometimes. Some of those C64 Iso 3D games run almost as fast as the A8 version, because of optimizations there. But even by the worst "weekend programming" , they were slightly faster on the A8. And, as it'S been shown, "some" optimizations on the A8 could speed up things tremendously. Amaurote isn't even running faster with single moving objects, it also allows a multiple of those , compared to the original "A8" version. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 I don't remember a version of Amaurote for another 6502 based platform so I don't think it was 'ported' per say? It could be a line-by-line conversion of the Z80 code, that's how Head Over Heels was done for the 6502- and 68000-based systems. During the Spectrum vs C64 debate at last years Replay Expo that I attended (which was just a bit of fun) Ste Pickford used Amaurote in his argument about the c64 being incapable of this Spectrum title. The story Ste Pickford has told previously is that the C64 version was always planned to be 2D and that they never even considered the logistics of doing isometric so that's an odd argument to use especially since he's previously described the game as "a bit weak" as well. i hope someone threw Action Biker back as a counter argument. =-) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R4ngerM4n Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Wow, very interesting tales. I hope somebody will some day put these stories into a book ... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pirx Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 p.s. Check out the Jakub Husak's optimised Amaurote+ for the A8 btw http://atarionline.pl/v01/index.php?ct=katalog&sub=A&tg=Amaurote%2B#Amaurote+ And Amaroute 128 (nice animations and stuph) http://atarionline.pl/v01/index.php?ct=katalog&sub=A&tg=Amaurote+128#Amaurote_128 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mclaneinc Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 (edited) Wow, very interesting tales. I hope somebody will some day put these stories into a book ... What I love about these stories is that it comes from the guys on the front line and not some relayed often changed version by a minion from a large corp. Back in those days it was much more personal, not teams of 30 plus, just 1 or 2 people fighting against a firm looking to make a buck with any old tosh. Like TMR I remember the days when you went along to a hired out hall in the Novatel in Hammersmith and you walked in to find Rub Hubbard selling you Mega Apocalypse, Jeff minter in his usual place of business, cross legged on the floor in the middle of the show Steve Bak (Goldrunner and MANY conversions) manning a stand and many more.. For people like me it was like finding Shigeru Miyamoto flogging you a cart of Legend of Zelda in Computer Exchange.. Great times....Largely ruined by suits...but with some notable wonders from the big team style.. Edited March 2, 2015 by Mclaneinc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 @TMR: :-) Having read THIS: 'The story Ste Pickford has told previously is that the C64 version was always planned to be 2D and that they never even considered the logistics of doing isometric so that's an odd argument to use especially since he's previously described the game as "a bit weak" as well' I did chuckle, seems Ste can now join Jez San in his recent RG interview, as telling a rather different version of events to one told years earlier. Thing is, when looking into the stories behind games, which version of events does the reader go on?.I know time plays tricks on the mind, but it was interesting to note another 'high profile' coder from that era now telling a 2nd version of events. Plot will be thickening at this rate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 'The story Ste Pickford has told previously is that the C64 version was always planned to be 2D and that they never even So, on one hand they knew the C64 wasn't able to do the ISO 3D in Amaurote. On the other hand, they pushed a game that's only benefit had been the Iso 3D , put the bad gameplay into a simple scroller with sprites and sell the "a bit weak" game. So the main issue has been fullfilled, alike whether the game is good or not, at least the C64 version had been there. Well, they would have done much more for history in pushing the A8 version more Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chinnyhill10 Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 I disagree that the games only benefit was the isometric viewpoint. The C64 version plays perfectly well as a 2D game. The problem was that the C64 version of Glider Rider had been such a pain that nobody wanted to go through that again, These were budget games being developed on multiple platforms at the same time under commercial time pressures. In that environment you go for the easiest option. It's easy to criticise today when people produce games for these systems in their free time and with far better development tools + years of accumulated experience in coding games. Bit different in 1986 when you had 17 year olds locked in an office in a very young industry that was finding its feet. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 So, on one hand they knew the C64 wasn't able to do the ISO 3D in Amaurote. Not exactly, they knew that they'd struggled with getting Glider Rider going so didn't try on that basis. On the other hand, they pushed a game that's only benefit had been the Iso 3D , put the bad gameplay into a simple scroller with sprites and sell the "a bit weak" game. So the main issue has been fullfilled, alike whether the game is good or not, at least the C64 version had been there. Well, they would have done much more for history in pushing the A8 version more Historically, focusing on one version of a game that's "a bit weak" doesn't get you much further than doing so on another to be honest, it's always going to be "a bit weak" in the long run. Companies like Binary Design were there to churn out stuff for publishers in relatively short timeframes rather than produce the best possible games, so they went where the sales were. The Pickfords' educated guesses for Armaurote are on that page too, around 50,000 units for the C64, Amstrad CPC or Spectrum and 2,500 for the Atari 8-bit. From a commercial perspective it's important to go where the units are because that's what pays your bills and playing safe by not taking the punt on isometric 3D for the C64 version is sensible in that context too, especially when it's a budget game. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tezz Posted March 3, 2015 Author Share Posted March 3, 2015 It's easy to criticise today when people produce games for these systems in their free time and with far better development tools + years of accumulated experience in coding games. Bit different in 1986 when you had 17 year olds locked in an office in a very young industry that was finding its feet. I agree it's unfair to criticise programmers that were working in a commercial envirionment with tight deadlines back in the day compared to hobbyists who can work on a game at their leisure. I'm sure you appreciate that fans of all platforms wanted all games to use the hardware fully and show the machines capabilities off so those games that were roughly ported (I'm not talking about Chimera here) were often frustrating with the platform being judged on its wares It's certainly not my intention to lay criticism in remaking these games but to simply enjoy writing the games in the way I wished they were done whilst also adding all the features that were absent. Like everyone here I appreciate the A8 so it's nice to have the opportunity to do this. I would like to point out for the record that I don't personally use any fancy development tools, I write my code old school on MS notepad. The enjoyment in this for me is writing code for the A8. I wish my free time wasn't so fragmented though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tezz Posted March 3, 2015 Author Share Posted March 3, 2015 It could be a line-by-line conversion of the Z80 code, that's how Head Over Heels was done for the 6502- and 68000-based systems. I must admit I didn't think that was something they would have undertaken in being more trouble then just writing from scratch with the z80's 16-bit addressing subsituted with zero page use but since you've mentioned this today I've been reading up and now know that they did this with various titles such as The Great Escape for example so it's probably the case as you suggested with Amaurote. I remember XXL mentioned that he does this too with his Spectrum conversions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 The c64 isn't fast enough for isometric Amaurote hence the top down reimagining of the game. Dear Sir, I have to strongly disagree with you on this topic ! Imho it's as chinnyhill10 stated "These were budget games being developed on multiple platforms at the same time under commercial time pressures. In that environment you go for the easiest option.". proving that C64 can do better than HoH is still on my to-do list, so we'll talk more when that's done Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetboot Jack Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 (edited) I genuinely am amazed by the naivety of the majority of people on this thread - these games are commercial products, the cost to develop vs the potential sales income 100% defines the quality of the game for the majority of titles. What good is creating the best game in the world, for a tiny audience, making no income and going bust?!? We really need to be realistic about the market environment in 1980's games publishing - and whilst I would LOVE every A8 game to be wonderful as a creator if there were 100 times as many sales on C64, that's the version I would prioritise. sTeVE Edited March 3, 2015 by Jetboot Jack 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mclaneinc Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 (edited) Yes indeed, the financially sound model was the one that was chosen first, the risk takers generally did so with others cash.. After the initial phase of Apple ports the rule of thumb tended to be that any 'port' was never going to be as good as the original favourite machine, this continued into the Amiga and ST days with folk like Peter Johnson who was the king of ports at that time, never taking in to account the built in Amiga hardware scroll abilities for the sake of page flipping displays but I guess his requisite from the employer was to simply complete the port rather than add to it. Always nagged him at the shows, never did bother to use the Amiga as an Amiga... Edited March 3, 2015 by Mclaneinc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 (edited) I genuinely am amazed by the naivety of the majority of people on this thread - these games are commercial products, the cost to develop vs the potential sales income 100% defines the quality of the game for the majority of titles.Not sure what you mean with naive , but I wonder what you'd say , if buying a car with wheels that run for only 10 miles and an engine that only works with some special gas that you couldn't buy at the next gas station, and you had to create the gearbox yourself, if you want to use it at all. OFCOURSE it had been commercial. But that's exactly the binding part between a creator and a customer. As I'm pretty sure, you won't buy such a car, you defend software creators doing the same quality. If someone does that same job just for fun and for free, there is no binding between the related. So the honour is still at the creator's side. What good is creating the best game in the world, for a tiny audience, making no income and going bust?!? We really need to be realistic about the market environment in 1980's games publishing - and whilst I would LOVE every A8 game to be wonderful as a creator if there were 100 times as many sales on C64, that's the version I would prioritise. why not Edited March 3, 2015 by emkay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Not sure what you mean with naive... He means this: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naivety 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 He means this: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naivety No. That's the definitions of "naivety". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Are you writing these posts for a bet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mclaneinc Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Which he just lost... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Which he just lost... The Atari, for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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