How has this not been posted yet? Retro VGS

[ninja_gaiden2015]

Anybody following this thread still cares about the "currently proposed" RVGS fate or are we all waiting for the "I told you so" moment?

 

It's kinda sad. If they went back to the earlier FGPS/core proposal and had a working prototype (and new campaign manager) then I would be more on board with them. I actually wanted to purchase one of the systems earlier on in the affair.

 

I don't wish them harm, but it's hard to be sympathetic of a failure of poorly executed business plan, that has through ignorance (mostly) misled people in the hopes of securing funds.

[phoenixdownita]

Not my point.

I personally realized I care about kevtris system because I realized I care about a "cycle perfect" emulation (FPGA reimplementation if you prefer) and the perk of NOT having to use actual carts AND the perk of using HDMI, add to that I could reclaim a room full of space and at 200-250US$ it would be like heaven.

So I suddenly realized that the RVGS promise to play modern retro style games in a cart is just not my cup of tea at all ... I do not want a console for that because any modern console/tablet/phone can do that already without the clutter ... but that is just me.

 

At the same time IF kevtris system would allow franken-cores (like Genesis with 256 colors VDP and 40Mhz 68K or SNES with 20Mhz 65C816 etc..etc..) then I wouldn't mind the occasional new production on such reimagined franken-cores, a little bit like the MSU-1 invented by byuu and implemented in HW by hikari on his SD2SNES has sparked a new SNES mod scene to add CD quality level music to old games or even FMV games on SNES like Road Avenger .. pretty sure the avenue to distribute such franken-core based games would NOT be a cart.

 

Hence my question. Who in here still cares about the "currently proposed" RVGS?

If they were to give you Mike's vision of a console (ARM + FPGA) to play modern retro games would you really care?

[forget the emulation/reimplementation side of it for a moment]

Edited September 27, 2015 by phoenixdownita

[Reaperman]

 

For me, I'm interested now to see what other insanely non-sensical things they release, as a desperate attempt to gain more backers.

 

I'm expecting an IndieGoGo cancellation note along the lines of:

"F-U Pat/Atariage! We're going to make it all by ourselves and you can't have one!"

So yes, I have come to believe that 'partial internet meltdown' or more accurately 'doubling down on teh stoopid' is likely.

(followed by five years of crickets and this thread getting bumped occasionally for new pictures of shatner riding pink bicycles)

 

If I were running the campaign, I'd have canceled it days ago with a 'becoming clear that the idea needs some refining' message, and then a few days later when it's been forgotten, put the whole idea in the circular file instead.

 

I don't fully know why, but this whole episode reminds me a lot of the idubbbztv kickstarter crap episode for 'the wastes.'

The guy really wants to make a game, but can't articulate any of it, and is pretty naive about the whole process.

Edited September 27, 2015 by Reaperman

[PlaysWithWolves]

I am at the 50 minute mark, or so, and the word file shows 8,600+ words. I still have about half an hour left to copy over.

 

!!!!!

Is there a Cliff Notes version?

[ninja_gaiden2015]

Not my point.

 

....Hence my question. Who in here still cares about the "currently proposed" RVGS?

If they were to give you Mike's vision of a console (ARM + FPGA) to play modern retro games would you really care?

[forget the emulation/reimplementation side of it for a moment]

 

I'm interested in kevtris' proposal because it would play system perfect games from the one system and support SD card with RGB and HDMI outputs.

 

Seriously if the only thing that is important is playing steam, retro-themed games from a cartridge, why don't the indie dev's just release SD or USB copies of their games inside a retro game cart case, but with a glossy manual and a universal cart case, but at a premium "collectors edition" price, with limited runs. This would, in effect, achieve the same outcome as it would fulfil the collector needs and provide a premium physical copy product to those who wanted it.

[CGQuarterly]

Hence my question. Who in here still cares about the "currently proposed" RVGS?

If they were to give you Mike's vision of a console (ARM + FPGA) to play modern retro games would you really care?

[forget the emulation/reimplementation side of it for a moment]

 

I was never more than mildly interested in the Retro VGS, but emulation of existing consoles is not something that I ever cared about. I already have a computer, a JXD android-based gaming tablet, and a soft-modded Wii. My emulation needs are covered. The Retro VGS was only attractive to me because of the prospect of NEW games being released on cartridge, that weren't at NG:Dev Neo-Geo prices. But after all that's happened, I couldn't really ever see myself being interested in this project anymore.

 

The Kevtris system I AM interested in because it would evidently be an upgrade to my current emulation options.

[Reaperman]

Seriously if the only thing that is important is playing steam, retro-themed games from a cartridge, why don't the indie dev's just release SD or USB copies of their games inside a retro game cart case, but with a glossy manual and a universal cart case, but at a premium "collectors edition" price, with limited runs. This would, in effect, achieve the same outcome as it would fulfil the collector needs and provide a premium physical copy product to those who wanted it.

 

It's amazing, but outside of getting to choose which games, that's pretty much the business model for indiebox.

I mean, I'd never buy from them, because the games are expensive, old, and not great to start with--but they're probably 1/3 the price that they'd be on rvgs and don't require an initial $300+ system purchase.

Edited September 27, 2015 by Reaperman

[jaybird3rd]

A quick update on the campaign: they were down again for most of Day 8, dipping as low as -$1484 by early afternoon, but thanks to a combination of new pledges and existing backers digging deeper into their pockets, they were (barely) back into positive territory by early evening. They begin Day 9 at 191 backers and $65,145 raised, $225 above where they started the day before. By my calculations, they're still $2,435 short of their peak at the start of Day 6, and $12,855 away from finally bringing their cumulative total above 3% of their minimum goal. They'd need to raise at least $50K per day through the remainder of the campaign to meet their goal.

 

Here are their totals at the start of each day that I've been keeping track (in other words, the figures for each day are "snapshots" which show the state of the campaign at the beginning of that day, midnight CST):

 

Day 3 (09/21): 172 backers, $60041 raised
Day 4 (09/22): 186 backers, $66188 raised, +$6147
Day 5 (09/23): 187 backers, $65956 raised, -$232
Day 6 (09/24): 193 backers, $67580 raised, +$1624
Day 7 (09/25): 192 backers, $65970 raised, -$1610

Day 8 (09/26): 188 backers, $64920 raised, -$1050

Day 9 (09/27): 191 backers, $65145 raised, +$225

[StarPath]

 

I'm interested in kevtris' proposal because it would play system perfect games from the one system and support SD card with RGB and HDMI outputs.

 

Seriously if the only thing that is important is playing steam, retro-themed games from a cartridge, why don't the indie dev's just release SD or USB copies of their games inside a retro game cart case, but with a glossy manual and a universal cart case, but at a premium "collectors edition" price, with limited runs. This would, in effect, achieve the same outcome as it would fulfil the collector needs and provide a premium physical copy product to those who wanted it.

 

 

But let's keep in mind that Kevtris' plausible dream of creating something that people actually want could be jeopardized by a "high-profile silicon valley" law firm.

 

It could be a bluff but if it's true just stop and think for a moment about that. They plan on taking money from people in this community and will then proceed to screw the same community that backed them. They want to prevent this community from having an open market on homebrew hardware so how could anyone possibly think that they are on our side at this point. It seems that these delusions of grandeur manifesting in Mike's quest for success is getting the better of his judgement and possibly his sanity. If he plans to pursue his dream any further he will need to hire outside PR and step out of the public light for a while. There's no way his reputation could recover enough at this point to gain 2mil worth of trust.

[ninja_gaiden2015]

The facebook page is split between hardcore supporters, confused people and skeptics.

 

One very positive thing that they are doing is offering a free issue of RETRO magazine (digitally) to facebook supporters.

 

This quote from their facebook kinda summarises my feelings on the project:

 

"Bill Bibly So you didn't go with Kickstarter because you didn't have a prototype and told us it costs too much to make a prototype. Now as of last night you suddenly have a prototype? This doesn't make any sense.

6 hrs"

[triverse]

As of Wednesday, when I conducted the interview, John does mention that "prototype" on his table (probably the one shown in his Youtube video). So they had whatever that was a few days ago but for whatever reason (explained in the interview) they weren't willing to show it.

 

Oh, at the 56 minute mark and we are a few words away from 10,000 and still have about 22 minutes left to copy over.

Edited September 27, 2015 by triverse

[ninja_gaiden2015]

As of Wednesday, when I conducted the interview, John does mention that "prototype" on his table (probably the one shown in his Youtube video). So they had whatever that was a few days ago but for whatever reason (explained in the interview) they weren't willing to show it.

 

Oh, at the 56 minute mark and we are a few words away from 10,000 and still have about 22 minutes left to copy over.

 

Thanks for your work Triforcec. Can't wait to listen to it. Kinda feels like this story of this project will be fawned over at a business school one day of "how not to introduce a product into the market"

[Albert]

But let's keep in mind that Kevtris' plausible dream of creating something that people actually want could be jeopardized by a "high-profile silicon valley" law firm.

I don't think this is a fair assessment at all. Given what Kevin has already stated on this subject, he did not give them any hardware designs, nor did he receive any payment from Retro VGS. Kevin stated there was "no paperwork involved", so I assume by that he means he never signed any sort of contract, NDA, or anything else along those lines. So what could they possibly go after him for? Additionally, Mike has publicly stated in interviews that they were going to let Kevin use his cores in his own projects, even if Retro VGS paid for their use.

 

..Al

[StarPath]

I don't think this is a fair assessment at all. Given what Kevin has already stated on this subject, he did not give them any hardware designs, nor did he receive any payment from Retro VGS. Kevin stated there was "no paperwork involved", so I assume by that he means he never signed any sort of contract, NDA, or anything else along those lines. So what could they possibly go after him for? Additionally, Mike has publicly stated in interviews that they were going to let Kevin use his cores in his own projects, even if Retro VGS paid for their use.

 

..Al

 

I'm saying if they somehow successfully get a patent on an FPGA game console, then nobody will be able to compete even if they never release this thing.

 

The fact that they are publicly admitting to attempting this, presumably with the campaign funding is confusing and makes no sense to me. Didn't they consider that this would divide the support from a community that has existed for years with an open and free market with no monopolizing or patenting? It's because the market is too small to justify the costs of patenting but a grab for 2 big ones says otherwise.

Edited September 27, 2015 by StarPath

[triverse]

I don't think this is a fair assessment at all. Given what Kevin has already stated on this subject, he did not give them any hardware designs, nor did he receive any payment from Retro VGS. Kevin stated there was "no paperwork involved", so I assume by that he means he never signed any sort of contract, NDA, or anything else along those lines. So what could they possibly go after him for? Additionally, Mike has publicly stated in interviews that they were going to let Kevin use his cores in his own projects, even if Retro VGS paid for their use.

 

..Al

This is all re-iterated in my interview when Kevin was brought up. Kevin probably has no legal requirement/concern with the RETRO VGS team to worry about. It is stated in too many places, text and audio, about the situation between the two parties.

 

I think I know who I need to talk with next...

[Albert]

I'm saying if they somehow successfully get a patent on an FPGA game console, then nobody will be able to compete even if they never release this thing.

First off, Kevin has an incredible amount of prior art at this point, given the demonstrable work he's done specifically with his FPGA boards and cores. Second, can you imagine the backlash if someone did attempt to strangle his development due to a patent (or patents?) I for one would not support any individual or company who used patents in this manner in our hobby. I have no idea what specifically the Retro VGS team is actually trying to patent, if anything at all. I can't imagine there's enough money in this to either try to stifle competition making a similar console (and one that actually somehow infringes on whatever patents they may ultimately receive, again, if any), or to even try and get patents in the first place (which is a very time consuming and expensive process). Not something I would worry about at this time.

 

..Al

[StarPath]

It seems likely that they called up that silicon valley lawyer after they bumped kevtris off the project. They know that his competition is a threat in an already micro market. Good thing they won't be able to hand this lawyer our money.

Edited September 27, 2015 by StarPath

[Albert]

It seems likely that they called up that silicon valley lawyer after they bumped kevtris off the project. They know that his competition is a threat in an already micro market.

This is a huge assumption on your part.

[StarPath]

This is a huge assumption on your part.

 

They are openly admitting to concern by investing any interest at all in patenting let alone to the point that they "can't show us too much of their work".

It's a good chance this is a smokescreen of course, but nonetheless let's take what they've told us at face value. It means they are quite concerned about competition.

[ninja_gaiden2015]

This is a huge assumption on your part.

 

Agreed albert. It's only speculation at this point and nothing more. They may only be name-dropping the use of their lawyer to try and give credibility to their project at this point, as something unique, innovative, crafted and worthwhile.

 

Edit: They might not achieve this goal, but they are clearly trying to project this

 

As someone who does litigation for a living, it's best to stick to certainty. If they patent-litigate hobbyists and innovators against producing their creations, I will be the first to slam them, but at this stage it's best to stick to what has actually occurred, rather than try to predict or project what is going through the minds of that team.

Edited September 27, 2015 by ninja_gaiden2015

[Albert]

They are openly admitting to concern by investing any interest at all in patenting let alone to the point that they "can't show us too much of their work".

It's a good chance this is a smokescreen of course, but nonetheless let's take what they've told us at face value. It means they are quite concerned about competition.

I personally am taking the patent talk with a grain of salt.

 

I think they need to be more concerned with actually producing a product first.

 

..Al

[phoenixdownita]

.... and applying for a patent does not mean you will get it granted.

You need to prove it is innovative and stands on its own .... so nothing there (MiST already constitutes prior art).

[phoenixdownita]

...also the core in a cart adapter is not really patentable because the MVS MagicKey for AES does exactly that.

There's an FPGA inside those babies and they are reporgrammable (via USB/special connectors in the cart) and said core is in a cart adapter (MVS to AES), actually there's 2 of them but nevermind.

 

So moving along there too.

Edited September 27, 2015 by phoenixdownita

[StopDrop&Retro]

I don't fully know why, but this whole episode reminds me a lot of the idubbbztv kickstarter crap episode for 'the wastes.'

 

Actually, it reminds me of the Kickstarter Crap episode for the Cybermatrix 100. In fact, this project has many parallels to that one.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9JQNInEC08

[Shiru]

There is no need to worry about patents or a law firm hurting to someone who would like to do something similar. Things like this, including the one that kevtris is working on - an FPGA-based board capable to emulate a number of retro systems - has been done by many people since late 90s. Sprinter 97, One Chip MSX, C-One, Minimig, Reverse U16 (linked as an example of recent project, to see what other people actually doing now), and many more, just difficult to recall them all. Not to mention countless video game-related products and hobbyist projects featuring an ARM and/or FPGA. There is barely anything special in the hardware of all of those, just a number of typical solutions with off-the-shelf parts. It is all about the 'firmware' (the cores, as you name it, i.e. FPGA configurations). That's the most difficult part to do, it may take like 10 years to get it near perfect. And some more complex systems like Genesis and SNES just hasn't been fully done yet. That's just more difficult than making a software emulator, because that's the real HW where lots of things going on in parallel, and even minor quirks are important. Clearly RVGS team does not have anything done in this regard, or even had any bright ideas, or someone capable of bringing such, as they wanted to cut the corners by licensing the kevtris work.