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How has this not been posted yet? Retro VGS


racerx

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Making a lovely horse drawn wagon is nice, but pricing the same price as a modern automobile while blaming the "haters" because your buggy whip isn't selling is just delusional.

 

HA HA! You really have a [good] way with words, and I got a good chuckle out of this analogy, even though it's so true. Bravo.

 

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I have been following this thread for a while now and it has been such an interesting read. Despite the kind of splenetic humor of my parody video, I really thought this project was interesting and I am sad that it has devolved into the circus that it is (although, deservedly so, based on the PR). I just saw this video of a "working prototype" on YouTube and it didn't seem that impressive, but perhaps the experts here can tell if it is in anyway approaching legitimacy.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pi10cm1pQXM

 

Hey, Mike found a use for his old Ouya!

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At this point, I'd just give up and try again at a later date when they had something to show. People are generally forgiving, but they're hurling rebuttals at the critics that do nothing more than prove the critics are telling the truth. I understand the time and passion they've put in, and maybe they're grasping at what they consider to be their only shot, but Jesus. Their IGG may as well be me saying "give me 4 mill and I'll figure something out".

 

If you really have passion, at least between the three of them, put up $5K... if that's even necessary for a working proto. It's the simplest thing and they have to do it anyways! I'm sure they're not that terrible off financially. I know most anyone here would kick in a grand from their life savings to leave a small mark on gaming history.

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Was just watching that video again. not calling bullshit but his leg starts to look odd around 1:17. I was trying to see where the mouse cord went and noticed it. I was thinking maybe his laptop was under the table and they tried to edit it out of the video cause it showed up by accident. but that really wouldn't make sense as they could have just re-shot it so maybe its just his pants. but the mouse cable doesnt seem to be going into the console.

 

edit:

 

its just his pants. nevermind

Edited by mickcris
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Full disclosure of who I am, I co-founded RetroGaming Roundup with Socal and UK Mike, I own 3% of GameGavel and I stand to make allot of money if this thing goes though. That said Socal Mike has burned me several times in the last 2 years and I have had it. I was the original designer of this console when it was first conceived (until I wasn't), and it was going to be good. If you listen to our interview with them it was somewhat of a deposition to establish that many people contributed to this console that got erased from its history, myself included.

 

This is a tough one for me, I was giddy with amusement for days but ultimatly I had to remember the guy I knew and I hope is still in there somewhere. I can tell you one of the last times I spoke to Mike Kennedy, the one I knew, was the day before the first issue of RETRO Magazine arrived. During the ramp up to and during the kickstarter he was still a part of RetroGaming Roundup and he utilized the shows reach on a constant basis to promote the kickstarter for the magazine. There were many promises made about how the magazine would carry show material and advertisement in return. When issue #1 arrived it was devoid of any mention of the show other than low on a list of podcasts in gaming. UK Mike and myself called him to ask WTF and we got the most robotic sanatized catch phrase laden response that magazines just don't do those things. Since then I have only seen the old Mike once or twice, and I like that guy, heck I even miss him.

 

The simple truth is that Mike never wanted to defraud any customer, he had a dream to return gaming to the golden era and he intended to deliver every dollars worth to the backers. His downfall was to treat the close people who cared and could execute his ideas as expendible and look for the next best thing that told him what he wanted to hear. He created structures that cut out the most loyal and brought in lesser people, it happened to his mag and to his console. So he ended up with a smarmy moron who gave him a stack of buzzwords which was like handing a baby a loaded revolver. He is a true believer and had the guts to try to create something special, he just lost his way on the path. I think his idea is a good one, and perhaps one day he will get the right people to make it into a product. He isn't out to scam or cheat the end user because he puts himself in the shoes of that end user and wants something awesome. He needs to regroup and come back with a better machine and listen to his critics because they are right in the end.

 

About Steve, I have met him on quite a few occasions and spent hours on the phone, and he is a solid guy, a good man, and has deep roots in the industry. Nothing but respect for him.

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OG's, I like that! Hey, we are actually twitter followers :) Small world...or maybe I am one of the old guys ;)

 

The old days will never come back. I think that guy Ian from the Pat CUPodcast said it well. He loves his cartridges he just doesn't want to go back to them. So for all those(including myself, I have heaps of carts) that loves to collect them, collect them..for the systems that used them. Maybe things have to stay in their time.

 

/Nicholas

 

One needs to be careful of the tools and method of conveyance used when taking certain things from the past and bringing them into the future. I'm quite happy how emulators have done that with the classic games. And they've added extra features and amenities which you can choose to use, or not.

 

This talk of cartridges being long lived and permanent. Hey! It's their defining feature. And to some collectors they look awesome - filling shelf after shelf. However, a properly backed-up emulation collection will outperform carts in terms of longevity and security. Hands down, every day of the week. With a cartridge your Game Program is saved in one physical location and subject to acts of mother nature or theft or other perils which could destroy your library (as was mine).

 

SD cards, Solids, and Spinners. They're dirt cheap and will enable you to keep your collection safe in ways you can't if you're stuck on carts.

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Re: the "cartridge backlash" stuff earlier in the thread.

 

I don't think anybody has any reason to resent cartridges; they just make zero economic sense now. They didn't make economic sense when the Nintendo 64 came out, either. Too time-consuming and expensive to manufacture. To risky. If a game flopped, warehouses were chock full of expensive but worthless hardware. If a game was a runaway hit, big-time shortages. At that time (1990s) it just couldn't compete with other guys' CDs which were cheap to manufacture droves of. If the CD game flopped, throwing away several 18-wheelers full of CDs was nothing compared to 18-wheelers full of N64 carts. It didn't make economic sense then, and with the move to digital distribution (ala Ouya or PSTV) with comparative *zero* media cost/risk, I just don't understand that choice? Can nostalgia truly blind economics?

 

Personally, I love physical cartridges with my old systems (which serve my need for nostalgia), but how can they work economically now when they didn't in 1996? If the Retro VGS was turned into some sort of "Super Ouya" that downloaded new games and still played old games (through whatever means) and did everything the Ouya did (but better) and did everything the Retron 5 does, I think I'd want one.

 

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So what is that "board" in the video?

It has obviously nothing to do with the RVGS they were talking about, they would not have taken 5 days of utter crap if they had a prototype.

Is it a simple ARM board (Beaglebone black like they started with) running a "custom" Android/Linux?

 

Also Mike said it himself they switched to IGG because they didn't have a proto.

If they were 5 days away to show off a proto (although very rough) they could have waited and gone KS, no problem and people would have likely gone along with it,

 

So now what are we looking at?

It gets weirder and weirder, patent attorney huh, on what? ARM, FPGA etc... are all already done. ARM console, done. FPGA boards, done. FPGA + ARM done (Mist has an ARM acting as controller already). Kevtris dual FPGA, done. So they can only patent their firmware. Designing an FPGA that drops gfx data into a video processor framebuffer (in the SoC) is not exactly something new either.

 

EDIT: yeah that is the inside of a house, you can see carpet on the floor, nobody sane would solder on a room with carpet risking to set the house on fire if a droplet hits it, but then again sanity left that particular building a couple of weeks prior.

Edited by phoenixdownita
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This was posted on FaceBook by John Carlsen, but I haven't seen it posted here, unless I missed it.

https://www.facebook.com/notes/john-carlsen/retro-vgs-first-update-from-john/10153654884377520?hc_location=ufi

We’ve promised regular updates on the progress of our product development. I see no reason to wait until after our funding campaign ends. So here we are, nearly a week after our funding campaign began at < http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/r...>...

I’d like to start my first update by giving a heartfelt thanks to our many loyal fans--especially our backers--and also an apology.
We haven’t been showing you our best work, and there are many reasons why.

The true visionary behind this project is Mike Kennedy. He’s also a marketing person with a big heart, and he wants to reciprocate the enthusiasm our followers show us by being totally open and sharing everything. I get it, and I admire him for that. But he talks, and he talks about everything I show or tell him. Again, he’s a marketing person, and that’s what marketing people do.

Knowing this about Mike (and about marketing people in general), causes me (as an engineer) to be very cautious in choosing what I share with him. The reason for this is very simple: our inventions are valuable, and premature public disclosure of our inventions would cause us to lose the ability to protect them with patents.
For most of this year I’ve been working crazy long startup hours on this project. I’ve drained my own savings to pay for both my living expenses and building prototype circuits. I have invested a lot of time and money, I have a lot to show for it.

The problem is: I can’t patent what I share publicly. As a result, I’ve been protecting my inventions as if they were my own children.
I know this doesn’t seem fair to you, our fans, especially when we ask you to help us fund building our dream system. So, I will be sharing more.

Although I have been reading many online discussions for months, I started chiming in only about a week ago. I’m still getting used to so much public dialogue, as I’m more of a geeky introvert who has been busy designing the RETRO VGS hardware and putting together cost estimates, budgets, timelines, and everything else that goes into managing a major project like this.

At this point, I’d like to try and dispel some of the misinformation that’s out there.

#1: We know what we’re building. We defined our requirements and architecture months ago, and they haven’t changed. One of the great things about our architecture is that it allows us to adapt our design to even the major changes we’ve seen in the component market, and it allows us to pick and choose the best components as the market changes and as our available funding grows.

For example, one semiconductor vendor (one of my favorites, the one that supplied the CPU that I built a PlayStation around) is now introducing a new generation of CPU and removing support for an old one that looked attractive earlier. The vendor has great parts and they pitched them to us well, but ultimately those parts weren’t the best fit for this product. (Giving them the extra consideration we did also delayed development of our prototype, but the prospect of using the newest part on the market was too good to ignore.)

To include the best parts that we can afford to use based on how much we raise during our funding campaign, we have so far published very few specifications about the internal components. When we have, those specifications have been based on the minimum configuration we would build.
That minimum configuration now includes (and will not be reduced below) a CPU running at least 16,000 DMIPS. That’s a pretty serious piece of hardware, which already makes RETRO VGS compare more closely to a PlayStation 3 than to a Raspberry Pi 2.

Through announcing stretch goals, we have tried to convey that our FPGA can grow in capacity and capability as our funding exceeds our minimum goal. Unfortunately, this seems to have caused some confusion, which we will attempt to clear up as soon as possible.

#2: We have working prototypes. For software, our game developers already have working prototypes and many even already sell finished products that run on classic platforms. For hardware, I just shot a quick video showing a little bit that won’t risk our patent rights. It isn’t much, but it shows our processor communicating via USB and driving simple high-resolution digital and analog video output. Most of our circuits are already in our enclosure, but I still have lots of ribbon cable and hand-wired circuits hanging out the back. If you want to watch it, you can view it on YouTube at < http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pi10...>.

#3: We didn’t switch to Indiegogo at the last minute. We had all agreed to use Indiegogo at least two weeks before we launched our campaign. (We mention Indiegogo in a video we shot more than a week before launch.) There was a lot to do, and we were slow to get the word out.

#4: We didn’t switch to Indiegogo because we didn’t have a working prototype.
Kickstarter publishes a rule stating that “Projects that involve the development of physical products must feature explicit demos of working prototypes. While you can run a project focused on the creation of a prototype, you can't offer the product that is under development as a reward.” (from < http://www.kickstarter.com/rules/pr...>)

Kickstarter clearly lets many current projects slide past this requirement, and they granted us an exception, too. Getting a private exception to this publicly-stated policy seemed deceptive toward backers, and we called them on it. Kickstarter welcomed our project, but wouldn’t change its policy statement to match.

#5: We don’t need to hit our stretch goals to include an FPGA. Even at our minimum funding goal, RETRO VGS will include an FPGA. Hitting our stretch goals allows us to use larger devices, which just extends what we can do with a system that’s already very impressive.

#6: We don’t need an FPGA to run software designed to run on classic consoles.
However, new games can use the resources available in RETRO VGS much more efficiently by running natively on our system, without a layer of emulation, whether the emulation is done in hardware or software; higher efficiency means that the game can do more, or at least consume less power while doing it. Emulating classic systems in hardware is also probably the worst use of this great (and expensive) resource; it is much more economical to emulate those systems via software, but we will of course optimize an emulation we do to use the resources we have available.

#7: We don’t need an outside vendor to supply FPGA cores.
An FPGA is a large programmable logic device. The first time I contributed to the design of a consumer product that shipped with programmable logic was in 1989. Over the next few years, I created many more circuit designs in and around programmable logic devices of increasing sizes. After leaving Iguana Entertainment in the mid 1990s, I spent years designing chips for one of the two largest FGPA makers, which gave me intimate knowledge of the devices. Working there also gave me free access to the company’s best design tools and the people who wrote them; I love the Atari 800, so for fun that was naturally the first thing I started building cores for, with the company’s high-end devices. What were the company’s high-end devices then are only now tapering off the low end of the market, providing amateurs a good place to start. (I have continued to use newer devices since then.)
We thought we had a good vendor to delegate some of our work to and/or from whom we could leverage existing work. Clearly it didn’t work out. Although I’m disappointed by his apparent lack of professionalism, he does good work and I wish him luck in his future endeavors.

#8: We are going to make adapters that let you play cartridges from older systems. Mike let the cat out of the bag early on this one. (Again, Mike talks about everything.) Yes, it’s true, and it’s going to be awesome. There’s a lot of engineering yet to be done on these (mostly mechanical design and making tools for injection molding plastic) and it’s a relatively low priority for me right now, but we will definitely offer adapters at very affordable prices that allow game cartridges from selected older systems to be played on RETRO VGS.

For example, our “Expansion Module #1” plugs in like a regular cartridge, but it has switches at the top and a slot on the front that will accept and play game cartridges that were made for the Atari VCS (2600/2600A) or Sears Tele-Games system, with potentially enough room under the slot for a wood-grain sticker. When an Atari VCS cartridge is inserted into the front of the adapter, the Atari VCS cartridge sits over the top of the RETRO VGS dome so you can read the end label and the top label, many of which were printed with important information including which number to select for which game and which controller(s) to use. Atari VCS games can be played using RETRO VGS USB controllers or classic 9-pin controllers.
We hadn’t yet posted this on our campaign page, and the word is already out.

With that, I end my first public status report, and thank you for your continued support.
- John Carlsen


If what he says is true about draining his bank account, then that really makes me feel bad if this thing doesn't end up happening.

Full disclosure of who I am, I co-founded RetroGaming Roundup with Socal and UK Mike, I own 3% of GameGavel and I stand to make allot of money if this thing goes though. That said Socal Mike has burned me several times in the last 2 years and I have had it. I was the original designer of this console when it was first conceived (until I wasn't), and it was going to be good. If you listen to our interview with them it was somewhat of a deposition to establish that many people contributed to this console that got erased from its history, myself included.

This is a tough one for me, I was giddy with amusement for days but ultimatly I had to remember the guy I knew and I hope is still in there somewhere. I can tell you one of the last times I spoke to Mike Kennedy, the one I knew, was the day before the first issue of RETRO Magazine arrived. During the ramp up to and during the kickstarter he was still a part of RetroGaming Roundup and he utilized the shows reach on a constant basis to promote the kickstarter for the magazine. There were many promises made about how the magazine would carry show material and advertisement in return. When issue #1 arrived it was devoid of any mention of the show other than low on a list of podcasts in gaming. UK Mike and myself called him to ask WTF and we got the most robotic sanatized catch phrase laden response that magazines just don't do those things. Since then I have only seen the old Mike once or twice, and I like that guy, heck I even miss him.

The simple truth is that Mike never wanted to defraud any customer, he had a dream to return gaming to the golden era and he intended to deliver every dollars worth to the backers. His downfall was to treat the close people who cared and could execute his ideas as expendible and look for the next best thing that told him what he wanted to hear. He created structures that cut out the most loyal and brought in lesser people, it happened to his mag and to his console. So he ended up with a smarmy moron who gave him a stack of buzzwords which was like handing a baby a loaded revolver. He is a true believer and had the guts to try to create something special, he just lost his way on the path. I think his idea is a good one, and perhaps one day he will get the right people to make it into a product. He isn't out to scam or cheat the end user because he puts himself in the shoes of that end user and wants something awesome. He needs to regroup and come back with a better machine and listen to his critics because they are right in the end.

About Steve, I have met him on quite a few occasions and spent hours on the phone, and he is a solid guy, a good man, and has deep roots in the industry. Nothing but respect for him.


O.O

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It's interesting he says their developers already having working prototypes. But I thought they didn't have money for a prototype? And why did Piko Interactive not get one of these proto units?

 

High res photo:

RVGS%20Proto.jpg

 

Edit: JibbaJaba beat me to the punch.

 

Edit 2: This just doesn't make sense. John is constantly looking off camera for what to say. And why would they build a windowed GUI for a demo of a game console? This whole thing stinks to high heaven. I feel like we are being trolled, right down to the explanation of the lab power supply.

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Re: the "cartridge backlash" stuff earlier in the thread.

If the Retro VGS was turned into some sort of "Super Ouya" that downloaded new games and still played old games (through whatever means) and did everything the Ouya did (but better) and did everything the Retron 5 does, I think I'd want one.

 

If you don't care about cartridge support, the Nvidia Shield TV should suit you quite nicely. For a little more money, you could build a low-end PC which could play the indie games listed in the RetroVGS campaign and also handle emulation really well. You could also buy a Retrode for cart support. Edited by goldenegg
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https://www.facebook.com/notes/john-carlsen/retro-vgs-first-update-from-john/10153654884377520

 

It's interesting he says their developers already having working prototypes. But I thought they didn't have money for a prototype? And why did Piko Interactive not get one of these proto units?

 

High res photo:

RVGS%20Proto.jpg

 

Edit: JibbaJabba beat me to the punch.

Hey looks who's there right in the middle above the keyboard.

The 4 7805 heat sinks and the blue "special" cart connector that they "glued" on the paper PCB of old.

 

This is getting surreal!!!

Edited by phoenixdownita
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I have been following this thread for a while now and it has been such an interesting read. Despite the kind of splenetic humor of my parody video, I really thought this project was interesting and I am sad that it has devolved into the circus that it is (although, deservedly so, based on the PR). I just saw this video of a "working prototype" on YouTube and it didn't seem that impressive, but perhaps the experts here can tell if it is in anyway approaching legitimacy.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pi10cm1pQXM

 

Wow, just wow. This showed off literally nothing. I could make out a tek scope, a fluke 87 meter, and a pile of "stuff" on the table, and a PVM monitor (I think). And some square blob was moving around on the screen when the mouse moved around, but that's about it. Some blinky lights in the case too. Other than that, who knows. It looks like a programming ribbon cable is snaking out of the shell. Also it looks like there's a post-it note covering something in the shell and another on the weller iron. Not sure though. I would expect to see at least their USB game controller moving the window if nothing else.

 

Most likely the board in the enclosure is some kind of dev board for their SOC, and could be running some standard OS like linux since it has to be an ARM core.

 

Him talking about how they want to patent every aspect of the system is frigging hilarious. I personally have a patent. It took over 2 years and over 20K to get it, and it definitely wasn't worth it. I like Don Lancaster's take on patents. Here's his sage advice on them:

 

http://www.tinaja.com/pasamp1.shtml

 

Specifically this one:

 

http://www.tinaja.com/glib/when2pat.pdf

 

I don't know if they realize just how HARD it is to get a patent. There's going to be miles of red tape, and they'll have to explain how it is different from the vast mountain of prior art that must exist from all the game companies who have already created cartridge based console systems in the past. I guess it isn't a problem here since they will need oodles of money to do it. Figure 25-30K per patent, and years of time.

 

I also am not sure who's going to "rip off" their ideas for a cart based system, I certainly am not going to. I have ideas of my own- frankly it seems like they co-opted my ideas and incorporated them if nothing else. If they do try to patent the cartridge adapter idea, I have prior art on my existing prototype, and Atari, Coleco, and Intellivision all had similar 'system adapters' they released back in the 80's so I am unsure how that could be patented. The RVGS website was talking about them trying to patent the cartridge bus, but again that'd be very silly- carts have been done to death from parallel to serial to anything else in between.

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It's interesting he says their developers already having working prototypes. But I thought they didn't have money for a prototype? And why did Piko Interactive not get one of these proto units?

 

I re-read that sentence a few times, and I think what he's saying is that developers have "prototypes" of their games. I think that's a little bit of doublespeak.

 

 

 

For software, our game developers already have working prototypes and many even already sell finished products that run on classic platforms.
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If what he says is true about draining his bank account, then that really makes me feel bad if this thing doesn't end up happening.

Me too, but at the risk of being insensitive, it still doesn't make any sense to me. If they really had that much work done already, they could have avoided a lot of confusion, and possibly rescued their fundraising campaign, if they had only revealed more of it earlier. If patent protection was the only reason they didn't, I have to wonder why they went the patent route in the first place? Why was it that important? To quote Kevtris:

DO NOT think about patenting the cartridge bus. Patents are stupid. I should know, I own a patent. It's expensive to get, and takes YEARS to get it. I doubt something as simple as a cartridge bus would be worthwhile to patent anyways; there's going to be so much prior art involved it's not funny. A patent isn't some kind of magical shield- all a patent does is literally give you a license to sue. That's it. Without money, you cannot defend your patent, rendering it worthless. Don Lancaster has some great tips on why you should avoid patents.

EDIT: See Kevtris's remarks above.

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So he threw the top of a jaguar on top a board? LMAO. I mean, seriously this is sloppy. He could have at least totally enclosed the system with top and bottom.

If it truly is a prototype board, it likely doesn't properly fit the shell at this point, especially with all the cables needed.

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By the way, if anyone wants an update on the campaign: the good news is that their $1040 pledge is back, but the bad news is that, aside for another $10 pledge, this is the only money that came in on Day 7. They've lost six more backers, so they're beginning Day 8 at 188 backers and $64,920 raised, $1050 below where they started on Day 7 and still hovering at 3% of their goal.

 

Here are their totals at the start of each day that I've been keeping track (in other words, the figures for each day are "snapshots" which show the state of the campaign at the beginning of that day, midnight CST):

 

Day 3 (09/21): 172 backers, $60041 raised
Day 4 (09/22): 186 backers, $66188 raised, +$6147
Day 5 (09/23): 187 backers, $65956 raised, -$232
Day 6 (09/24): 193 backers, $67580 raised, +$1624
Day 7 (09/25): 192 backers, $65970 raised, -$1610

Day 8 (09/26): 188 backers, $64920 raised, -$1050

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So lemme get this straight, the "VP of operation and platform development" of the company thinks the President of said company is a moron and hides information from him 'cause "he talks too much" and then after 5 days of losing proposition during a vital funding campaign he comes out of his own volition and I bet without telling it to the President of said company [cause he really thinks he's a moron at this point] with "something" to cover up the messy state they are in.


I quote from Jibbajaba quote of Carl:

"The true visionary behind this project is Mike Kennedy. He’s also a marketing person with a big heart, and he wants to reciprocate the enthusiasm our followers show us by being totally open and sharing everything. I get it, and I admire him for that. But he talks, and he talks about everything I show or tell him. Again, he’s a marketing person, and that’s what marketing people do.
Knowing this about Mike (and about marketing people in general), causes me (as an engineer) to be very cautious in choosing what I share with him. The reason for this is very simple: our inventions are valuable, and premature public disclosure of our inventions would cause us to lose the ability to protect them with patents."

Edited by phoenixdownita
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So he threw the top of a jaguar on top a board? LMAO. I mean, seriously this is sloppy. He could have at least totally enclosed the system with top and bottom.

Nah it's on there to blur out what the hardware actually looks like to prevent identification of what dev boards it contains I suspect.

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