How has this not been posted yet? Retro VGS

[Albert]

What console has a ZIF? You guys are using the wrong terminology.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero_insertion_force

Thank you.

[CPUWIZ]

I am just nit-picky about these things, just like people believing that the XBone can emulate a 360, it simply is not the case.

 

CEC, you could abbreviate it to, although I have never heard anyone call a card edge connector that.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edge_connector

 

EDIT: Handy google images link: https://www.google.com/search?q=card+edge+connector&safe=off&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAmoVChMIxbfZopCgyAIV0TCICh3pIQjy&biw=1440&bih=772

 

Carry on.

 

P.S. oldjd's wife makes custom dust covers, just saying.

[+madman]

What console has a ZIF? You guys are using the wrong terminology.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero_insertion_force

It's not technically a true "ZIF" connector, but the generally accepted term for the original "toaster" NES is that it's a ZIF connector because it requires far less force than a standard edge connector. Just like everyone knows what a "toaster" NES is and it is of course not technically a toaster.

[StopDrop&Retro]

The mastermind behind the Ultravision?

 

Oh, wow! I didn't even know about that! So no, it's not the guy I had in mind. I'm still planning the episode and hitting the books, I need to read up on a few things. But it should make a good episode.

[CPUWIZ]

It's not technically a true "ZIF" connector, but the generally accepted term for the original "toaster" NES is that it's a ZIF connector because it requires far less force than a standard edge connector. Just like everyone knows what a "toaster" NES is and it is of course not technically a toaster.

 

I get it, I used to call our dog a monkey a lot, but that doesn't make our dog a monkey. Same crap as calling a black 2600 a "Vader".

[boxpressed]

 

Oh, wow! I didn't even know about that! So no, it's not the guy I had in mind. I'm still planning the episode and hitting the books, I need to read up on a few things. But it should make a good episode.

 

It was supposed to be the Swiss Army Knife of video games, able to play 2600 & ColecoVision games, in addition to whatever ran on its computer module.

 

http://gamingafter40.blogspot.com/2009/09/ultravision-ultimate-in-vaporware.html

 

If someone were to make the Ultravision after all these years, I would totally spring for one.

[+remowilliams]

If someone were to make the Ultravision after all these years, I would totally spring for one.

 

If you can find the plastic injection die molds, I know this guy who CAN MAKE IT HAPPEN!

[CGQuarterly]

 

If you can find the plastic injection die molds, I know this guy who CAN MAKE IT HAPPEN!

 

It's that simple.

[phoenixdownita]

 

I get it, I used to call our dog a monkey a lot, but that doesn't make our dog a monkey. Same crap as calling a black 2600 a "Vader".

Maybe you should fix it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_Entertainment_System#Design_flaws

[Andromeda Stardust]

 

... plastic injection die molds ...

I thought the injection molds were made of steel. Plastic is what goes into the molds...

[jaybird3rd]

I thought the injection molds were made of steel. Plastic is what goes into the molds...

... and Haterade™! (These are Jaguar molds, after all.)

[Keatah]

I wonder how much the conflicting goals of RVGS spilled over into their deliberations and discussions on spec'ing the hardware and when the going got rough, into their personalities? All this conflict had to amplify their personal differences to the point where the team fell apart.

 

 

The mastermind behind the Ultravision?

 

Thanks for posting that ad. I was looking for it off and on for quite some time. Back in the day, as a kid, me and my buddies I built one of these things. It could play all VCS games, get all the TV stations, play cassettes, and do AM/FM/SW/WB. Made the housing out of plywood, and simply mounted everything in there. I even had an upgrade-to-VCR planned for the future.

 

About the only thing it did well, aside from all the stuff making interference, was overheat. While I had a "System Saver" for the Apple II, the idea never occurred to me to do it for my cabinet-console.

[InnovaX5]

... and Haterade™! (These are Jaguar molds, after all.)

Haterade™ the official refreshment of RetroLand™

[Greg2600]

I wonder how much the conflicting goals of RVGS spilled over into their deliberations and discussions on spec'ing the hardware and when the going got rough, into their personalities? All this conflict had to amplify their personal differences to the point where the team fell apart.

 

Hang on there Sigmund. They fell apart because the crowdfund failed.

[001 Influence Device]

 

Hang on there Sigmund. They fell apart because the crowdfund failed.

The way I see it, they fell apart because they didn't know their market. Not bashing here, even a technical guy working at Sony could have made the same mistake. It's not a technical guy's job to be bothered with this kind of stuff. If you check out the Sega-16 thread, most people were like "meh" when this was announced. A Jaguar case is sleek and cool and all, but very few people have memories of it. I remember it mostly as an ad in magazines of the time, thinking it was cool as I bought my brand new Sonic 3 cart. Then I forgot all about it... That's not enough to persuade me to buy a software emulator cased in it. Once the FPGA thing was detailed, people quickly got interested, cause it differentiated this thing from a raspberry pi running software emulation.

Once you lose the FPGA angle, you're basically pitting it against the androids. You know, the platform that's terrifying everyone, destroying Microsoft's mobile dreams, slowly eating into Sony and Nintendo's handheld console sales and mopping the floor in the cheap platform market. Good luck getting margins there. So with no reason to buy it anymore, there's no way to get the install base you need to basically get a new platform for devs to want to develop for.

I don't know anything about anything on what's going on behind scenes, but being cynical I'd say they mistepped and lost Kevin, thinking FPGA part is not important. Then they panicked and hoped that for 2 million they can get a few Kevins on board to make up for the time they would lose reinventing the wheel.

Anyway, I think in making a modern retro console, you need to really play on the strengths of the community. Not just shoot for a collector's money grab. Extend existing console capabilities (like online) so people have a reason to pull out their old gaming consoles. Help software guys emulate your extension and devs to hook into these capabilities, preferably in a unified way. So I can play on my MD while the other player is using his SNES port. Help develop cross platform developing tools.

-"BUT THEY WON'T BUY MAH SUPER RETRO VGS THIS WAY!". No they all won't. Even after this, it's still not gonna look like a mass market audience. Many wont even be throwing money your way at all, preferring to emulate the whole thing on their PC. But you've just expanded the market for this stuff, making a good name in this community the whole time. Make your console the console devs would want to get, to have all that in one place. Doesn't have to be cheap this way. It can be sold at a premium, if it's basically a system catering at a community of already existing consoles. FPGA part could be a very interesting way of prototyping new SVP/SuperFX chips for homebrew cartridges that would work on original systems etc.

[sh3-rg]

I’m not sure why everybody is tarring and feathering Mike Kennedy. It’s pretty clear that his being part dreamer and part salesman turned out to be an unsuitable combo for the PR guy on such an ambitious project. It’s also clear in hindsight that he was in way over his head, and that the whole RVGS concept probably lacks real-world viability (let’s be honest here).

 

...

 

Forums and social media sites just make it too easy for people to pile on and be anonymous dicks. Being human and a fair bit over his head on the whole thing, I’m not surprised he lost his cool a few times in the face of it all. Most of us here would have too, in his position—I’d encourage everybody to think about that for a second before joining the chorus of indignation. It’s not like RVGS had the luxury of a high-priced marketing/PR firm to manage the press.

 

Where did this post come from? At this point in the thread, after John has left, most of the talk is revolving around the three of them and how they each seemed to be pulling in a different direction. There's no dogpile and the chorus of hate/tar and feathers simply did not happen.

 

Also, there's a huge difference between being in over your head/naive and being wilfully misleading (for instance, name dropping big name companies and games over the past 6 months, doing little to alert the potential audience of the downplay of the FPGA to the point that at the first funding goal, it is practically non-existent, exaggerating costs and savings such as the figures quotes for using the Jaguar shell, being interviewed by someone who is producing software for your device and potentially further undisclosed vested interests in the project (given his use of the words "our campaign" in said interview), and passing it off as a neutral 3rd party, etc., etc., etc.).

 

He's not being singled out here, but it just happens to be that he's been the public face of the project and has uttered the most words on the subject - and that's a lot of information to cross-reference, analyse and dissect given that almost every time another member of the team uttered anything it seemed there was something amiss or not quite aligned.

 

Nobody is anonymous here. The vast majority of people actively involved with this discussion are not hit-and-run dogpilers, but people who continue to contribute to this hobby and have done so for years. Sure, there might be one or two "dicks" who jump in and shitpost, but that's few and far between - and there are an equally tiny number of unofficial PR reps and superfans that offer just as much value in their posting - i.e. none whatsoever.

[Greg2600]

The way I see it, they fell apart because they didn't know their market. Not bashing here, even a technical guy working at Sony could have made the same mistake. It's not a technical guy's job to be bothered with this kind of stuff. If you check out the Sega-16 thread, most people were like "meh" when this was announced. A Jaguar case is sleek and cool and all, but very few people have memories of it. I remember it mostly as an ad in magazines of the time, thinking it was cool as I bought my brand new Sonic 3 cart. Then I forgot all about it... That's not enough to persuade me to buy a software emulator cased in it. Once the FPGA thing was detailed, people quickly got interested, cause it differentiated this thing from a raspberry pi running software emulation.

Once you lose the FPGA angle, you're basically pitting it against the androids. You know, the platform that's terrifying everyone, destroying Microsoft's mobile dreams, slowly eating into Sony and Nintendo's handheld console sales and mopping the floor in the cheap platform market. Good luck getting margins there. So with no reason to buy it anymore, there's no way to get the install base you need to basically get a new platform for devs to want to develop for.

I don't know anything about anything on what's going on behind scenes, but being cynical I'd say they mistepped and lost Kevin, thinking FPGA part is not important. Then they panicked and hoped that for 2 million they can get a few Kevins on board to make up for the time they would lose reinventing the wheel.

Anyway, I think in making a modern retro console, you need to really play on the strengths of the community. Not just shoot for a collector's money grab. Extend existing console capabilities (like online) so people have a reason to pull out their old gaming consoles. Help software guys emulate your extension and devs to hook into these capabilities, preferably in a unified way. So I can play on my MD while the other player is using his SNES port. Help develop cross platform developing tools.

-"BUT THEY WON'T BUY MAH SUPER RETRO VGS THIS WAY!". No they all won't. Even after this, it's still not gonna look like a mass market audience. Many wont even be throwing money your way at all, preferring to emulate the whole thing on their PC. But you've just expanded the market for this stuff, making a good name in this community the whole time. Make your console the console devs would want to get, to have all that in one place. Doesn't have to be cheap this way. It can be sold at a premium, if it's basically a system catering at a community of already existing consoles. FPGA part could be a very interesting way of prototyping new SVP/SuperFX chips for homebrew cartridges that would work on original systems etc.

 

No I think they knew the market, Mike certainly did when he started this project, and declared a sub-$200 price. John joined later, but it was evident that his design was never going to meet a price point. KevTris advised them about that, but again, clearly John decided against that. The initial buzz for the RVGS was from the collector community, not retro gamers looking for hardware emulation. That came later, and frankly should have been kept as a stretch goal. The original purpose of the system was to play newly developed games on cartridge, that's it. Even at the end, the RVGS was STILL a cart-based system that played newly developed "retro" styled games.

 

The loss of Kev's FPGA Cores IMO did not doom this system, because again, it was not intended to be an NES, Atari, Sega emulator. That was was something they decided to add much later when they began working with KevTris. I think people dogpiled due to the loss of Kev, but he was not part of the core equation (no pun), which is, again, a cart-based system to play newly developed games! Ha ha. What really opened my eyes was when Kevin detailed how RVGS had decided to use expensive manufacturing in SoCal rather than the far east. I'm not going to bash, because that's quite an admirable goal from Carlsen, but you add a TON of money to your system by doing that. There was NO way they could incorporate the FPGA Kev needed, or honestly, what even Steve wanted to work with, as a result.

 

I really think people who WANT a cartridge based console to play newly developed games (and collect them) ought to give the 2nd coming of this project an honest chance. This was what Kennedy's goal was from the outset, and while there are some who came into this project with grudges against the man, most of us did not, quite the opposite. I think the original concept that he and Steve had is still one that should be examined. Frankly I would keep ALL planning for hardware core/emulation to the side. Yeah, that's right, table it. IMO there's a tiny tiny market for this kind of product, given that you can emulate these systems on just about every device sold over the last 5 years! Stick to the cart system to play new games, end of story. If it can't swim on that alone, then give up.

[001 Influence Device]

 

No I think they knew the market, Mike certainly did when he started this project, and declared a sub-$200 price. John joined later, but it was evident that his design was never going to meet a price point. KevTris advised them about that, but again, clearly John decided against that. The initial buzz for the RVGS was from the collector community, not retro gamers looking for hardware emulation. That came later, and frankly should have been kept as a stretch goal. The original purpose of the system was to play newly developed games on cartridge, that's it. Even at the end, the RVGS was STILL a cart-based system that played newly developed "retro" styled games.

 

The loss of Kev's FPGA Cores IMO did not doom this system, because again, it was not intended to be an NES, Atari, Sega emulator. That was was something they decided to add much later when they began working with KevTris. I think people dogpiled due to the loss of Kev, but he was not part of the core equation (no pun), which is, again, a cart-based system to play newly developed games! Ha ha. What really opened my eyes was when Kevin detailed how RVGS had decided to use expensive manufacturing in SoCal rather than the far east. I'm not going to bash, because that's quite an admirable goal from Carlsen, but you add a TON of money to your system by doing that. There was NO way they could incorporate the FPGA Kev needed, or honestly, what even Steve wanted to work with, as a result.

 

I really think people who WANT a cartridge based console to play newly developed games (and collect them) ought to give the 2nd coming of this project an honest chance. This was what Kennedy's goal was from the outset, and while there are some who came into this project with grudges against the man, most of us did not, quite the opposite. I think the original concept that he and Steve had is still one that should be examined. Frankly I would keep ALL planning for hardware core/emulation to the side. Yeah, that's right, table it. IMO there's a tiny tiny market for this kind of product, given that you can emulate these systems on just about every device sold over the last 5 years! Stick to the cart system to play new games, end of story. If it can't swim on that alone, then give up.

 

You could be right about it starting out targeting collectors only. It only hit my radar when I read about the FPGA angle. Until then it did not interest me at all. I sincerely hope they do succeed. And people get what they want. But think about this: If they could succeed at something like this, why did Sega drop out of hardware? I'm not saying this as a fanboy (I am a Sega one, lol). But if you actually examine the market forces in play here, just targeting new retro games on a cartridge, removing online is something that would appeal to a subset of a subset of users. The smaller the user base, the less cheaper this thing is gonna be. Unless you piggyback on something ready-made, like android or linux.

 

If they do announce something like this. I wish them all the luck. I however, would not be in their target group.

[PlaysWithWolves]

The loss of Kev's FPGA Cores IMO did not doom this system, because again, it was not intended to be an NES, Atari, Sega emulator. That was was something they decided to add much later when they began working with KevTris. I think people dogpiled due to the loss of Kev, but he was not part of the core equation (no pun), which is, again, a cart-based system to play newly developed games!

 

Kennedy heavily marketed a console that could do "FPGA hardware emulation" and modern games on cartridges from late April-to-September. It really doesn't matter what it "originally" was before then, since there was hardly any notice by the community.

 

Kevtris and PikoInteractive showed that there were many behind-the-scenes problems. No contracts, no NDAs, no details of how SNA3D could be ported, left a key developer (Kevin) so in-the-dark he thought he'd been let go and, of course, Kevin's $2000 prototype board that blew away all claims of needing $100,000 and a year of development; they could have had something tangible developed between May and September, even if it wasn't the final.

 

Edited becuz I am dumb and hit the post button too soon.

Edited October 1, 2015 by PlaysWithWolves

[roland p]

Kennedy heavily marketed a console that could do "FPGA hardware emulation" and modern games on cartridges from late April-to-September.

As an FPGA hardware emulator, with the absence of an SD-Card reader, it would be a half-baked system. Edited October 1, 2015 by roland p

[shadowkn55]

 

Kennedy heavily marketed a console that could do "FPGA hardware emulation" and modern games on cartridges from late April-to-September. It really doesn't matter what it "originally" was before then, since there was hardly any notice by the community.

 

Kevtris and PikoInteractive showed that there were many behind-the-scenes problems. No contracts, no NDAs, no details of how SNA3D could be ported, left a key developer (Kevin) so in-the-dark he thought he'd been let go and, of course, Kevin's $2000 prototype board that blew away all claims of needing $100,000 and a year of development; they could have had something tangible developed between May and September, even if it wasn't the final.

 

Edited becuz I am dumb and hit the post button too soon.

 

To be fair, $2000 is what he personally spent not inlcuding his time to manufacture the prototype. He's been working on these cores in his spare time over the course of a decade. If you were to add up all the hours he put into it and paid the going rate for someone of his caliber, you'd probably end up with a bill well over $100k.

[PlaysWithWolves]

 

To be fair, $2000 is what he personally spent not inlcuding his time to manufacture the prototype. He's been working on these cores in his spare time over the course of a decade. If you were to add up all the hours he put into it and paid the going rate for someone of his caliber, you'd probably end up with a bill well over $100k.

 

 

I'm not a hardware guy. I'd suggest taking that issue up with kevtris directly. From his first post:

 

 

I noticed in the IGG that they are allocating around $100K(!) for prototype development. This is an insane amount of money, considering I am in for around $1000-1200 on my latest "advanced" prototypes- around 1% of what they are seeking. No, I am not going to start asking for money, just thought it was interesting to point out. Total development time from concept to prototype PCBs+parts was around 2-3 months. This included the design time in Altium, learning Altium, and getting the boards manufactured.

 

I figured if I was going to sell this thing, I was damn well going to have a working prototype of what I wanted to manufacture, and have the software fully working too.

 

[sNIP]

Just thought I'd drop the bomb in here about how I have basically created what they are trying to create, but actually have gotten it manufactured and did it all on a shoestringish budget.

 

[Crazy Climber]

It's not technically a true "ZIF" connector, but the generally accepted term for the original "toaster" NES is that it's a ZIF connector because it requires far less force than a standard edge connector. Just like everyone knows what a "toaster" NES is and it is of course not technically a toaster.

Yeah, I used to call my friends retards or gay, they were not actually mentally disabled or homosexual so it was ok, this was a while back, I know these days to not dare say anything the slightest bit offensive to anybody or I will get publicly stoned.

[shadowkn55]

 

 

I'm not a hardware guy. I'd suggest taking that issue up with kevtris directly. From his first post:

 

 

 

 

But I am so I have a slightly better idea of what goes into developing hardware projects. He's virtually valuing his time at free. He's doing this more out of curiosity than a finnancial reward. 2-3 months of dev time is nothing to scoff at even if it's just 2-3 hours a day in addition to his normal day job. I'm not saying it was right for the IGG to basically ask to fund a prototype. That should have been a bare minimum to even get the campaign started. For reference, a computer science or electrical engineering major straight out of college makes at least $50k a year. A veteran, especially one that is directly applicable to the field, easily commands $100k+. I wouldn't be surprised if the $100k cost quoted to make a prototype was equal to John's salary for the project.

[PlaysWithWolves]

 

But I am so I have a slightly better idea of what goes into developing hardware projects. He's virtually valuing his time at free. He's doing this more out of curiosity than a finnancial reward. 2-3 months of dev time is nothing to scoff at even if it's just 2-3 hours a day in addition to his normal day job. I'm not saying it was right for the IGG to basically ask to fund a prototype. That should have been a bare minimum to even get the campaign started. For reference, a computer science or electrical engineering major straight out of college makes at least $50k a year. A veteran, especially one that is directly applicable to the field, easily commands $100k+. I wouldn't be surprised if the $100k cost quoted to make a prototype was equal to John's salary for the project.

 

Moot point. Crowdfunded projects require blood sacrifice -- or at least they should. Kevtris showed he was able to make a prototype in less time and far less money.