How has this not been posted yet? Retro VGS

[leods]

I really think people who WANT a cartridge based console to play newly developed games (and collect them) ought to buy a SNES or Mega Drive and Support the homebrew/indie Scene on those consoles.

 

I couldn't agree more.

 

If you're not allergic to optical media a Dreamcast seems to be a good bet also, and if you like DRM free to Chose how, where and how many copies of a game you want to have a PC is nothing less than amazing for playing Retro games.

 

Oh yeah, sure. You might want to make up any excuse for buying a Retro VGS if you're into having stuff and all.

 

To me this is like the new gen console vs PC debacle. I can't see what justifies getting a PS4 or an Xbox one. If you want to pretend there is a Logical reason for getting them you can Claim they're cheaper, or talk about the great exclusives, as if consoles had more good exclusive games than PC... Whatever. To each his own,

 

What sort of agravates me, is when People get These adverstisement a Company does and embrance it. Of course SONY says the PS4 is amazing because of this and that. Of course Retro says the RVGS is our last Chance at owning our games or buying games in cartridge again. But you know. They're trying to sell somehting. The customer shouldn't be trying to sell somehting.

[shadowkn55]

 

Moot point. Crowdfunded projects require blood sacrifice -- or at least they should. Kevtris showed he was able to make a prototype in less time and far less money.

 

It's far from being a moot point. Whether or not you want to belive it, those are the figures. There aren't very many gracious types like kevtris floating around that are willing to spend their free time and give back to the community as much as he does. There are people out there that a capable enough to do what he does but most of them aren't fascinated with the subject enough to do it pro bono. To hire a full time engineer to do the same work isn't cheap.

 

However, I will agree with you that crowdfunding should require blood sacrifice. They are supposed to provide a platform to get a WORKING idea off the ground. Not fund pipedreams that will eventually produce something tangible. If John believed in the project enough as much as Mike did, he would have spent the time to making something that at least resembles something functional. What John seems to misunderstand is that he thinks a prototype is a pre-production model, not a hodge-podge of eval boards hooked to work in the desired fashion.

[Keatah]

[..]

If you're not allergic to optical media a Dreamcast seems to be a good bet also, and if you like DRM free to Chose how, where and how many copies of a game you want to have a PC is nothing less than amazing for playing Retro games.

[..]

 

That is absolutely correct. Not only the neo-nuvo retrogames, but the original REAL ones too!

[PlaysWithWolves]

shadowkin55, judging from your last post I think we're actually on the same page. I'm not disputing the costs, including labor, to develop such electronics in a professional setting. I was just saying that kevtris showed it was possible to do something on a shoestring budget and in a relatively short time. This, among other things I listed, made the RVGS team look bad.

 

At least, that was how I perceived the whole kevtris "mic drop" post.

[shadowkn55]

shadowkin55, judging from your last post I think we're actually on the same page. I'm not disputing the costs, including labor, to develop such electronics in a professional setting. I was just saying that kevtris showed it was possible to do something on a shoestring budget and in a relatively short time. This, among other things I listed, made the RVGS team look bad.

 

At least, that was how I perceived the whole kevtris "mic drop" post.

 

I'm pretty sure we're seeing eye on eye on this whole fiasco. I just wanted clarify, not specifically to you, for the people only seeing the dollar amounts ($2000 vs, $100k) that there is a delineation of where the "blood money" is being "spent." Somewhere between those two numbers lies passionate work of someone who loves the intricacies of video game hardware. Kinda reminds me of a salami attack (real term, btw). You take a couple thin slices hear and there over a long period of time, nobody notices. Take the entire salami at once, someone definitely notices. When you do part time R&D over the course of many years, it's far different from lumping that all together into consecutive man hours doing the same work.

[AE35]

FWIW, I just ordered two Nvidia Shield consoles since they are getting released outside the US now(oct 8

 

For me, a device like the Shield must be entered into the same fray as the other devices for retro gaming. As must any 50usd Android player...even though it is not kosher to say.

 

/Nicholas

Edited October 1, 2015 by AE35

[sh3-rg]

Thing is, maybe it's best to step forward with a project like this having already done the kind of work kevtris has, rather than be in a position where you need your backers to pay someone $100k to prototype it while you stand around waving a couple of pieces of plastic and relaying dreams of RetroLand.

[AE35]

Yes! I do plan to do another episode and it should be up this weekend. Plenty of people have been posting post-mortems and "what RVGS should have done" but I want to do something different. In the last video everyone saw, we took a journey into Mike's head. In this weekend's video, we're going to go into the heads of the supporters. I don't want to spoil too much, but I'm also going to answer a weird question I have: modern retro indie games have their classic era counterparts, but does Mike Kennedy also have a classic era counterpart? Stay tuned to find out!

I'm going to sit here and wait for it. Your videos are amazing quality, from idea to voice. Top notch.

[glazball]

Since they are in listening mode now I thought I would help them out by writing their community apology for them.

This is not an official statement from the RVGS team (but in my opinion something like it should be).

...

 

Though I mostly agree with what you wrote, I think it's a bit distasteful to pretend to speak for Mike. Let him speak for himself if he chooses to do so. Also, why should he owe the retro gaming community an apology? He didn't run off with anyone's money.

[dashv]

Though I mostly agree with what you wrote, I think it's a bit distasteful to pretend to speak for Mike. Let him speak for himself if he chooses to do so. Also, why should he owe the retro gaming community an apology? He didn't run off with anyone's money.

I didn't pretend to speak as anybody.

 

I clearly stated I am not associated with them.

 

Like you they probably don't feel any apology is necessary.

 

The purpose of my post was to show them the apology myself and other community members feel is due and why.

 

In effect I wrote the apology I want to hear and gave them license to use it if they choose.

[glazball]

Why do you feel you are due an apology? Unless you pledged to the campaign and had your money tied up, you have no stake in this at all.

 

I know you clearly said you are not associated with the RVGS guys, but it was written in first person which just left a bad taste in my mouth. However, I did agree with most of what you wrote. And I think that even if Mike did return to AA (and other sites) apologizing, with hat in hands, he's still be accused by some of being insincere and just trying to do whatever he can to relaunch RVGS 2.0

[sh3-rg]

why should he owe the retro gaming community an apology? He didn't run off with anyone's money.

 

Is running off with money the line in the sand? Cross that and it matters, do or say anything deemed not quite as naughty as outright theft and you're all good?

 

Why do you feel you are due an apology? Unless you pledged to the campaign and had your money tied up, you have no stake in this at all.

 

It's not all dollar dollar bills.

 

From reading this and other threads like it, some people feel they were due an apology due to being branded trolls/haters for simply stating an opinion that differed to the picture being painted by the RVGS team; having valid questions and whole discussion threads vanished from facebook, being led up the garden path with name dropping and so on.

 

16,000+ facebook likes convert into around 150 console pledges for a reason. Firstly, because facebook is a cesspit of likely-clicky throwaway superficial bullshit, but secondly, because a number consider the whole deal to be something of a bait and switch.

Edited October 1, 2015 by sh3-rg

[Chris++]

...facebook is a cesspit of likely-clicky throwaway superficial bullshit...

 

[leods]

Why do you feel you are due an apology? Unless you pledged to the campaign and had your money tied up, you have no stake in this at all.

 

I know you clearly said you are not associated with the RVGS guys, but it was written in first person which just left a bad taste in my mouth. However, I did agree with most of what you wrote. And I think that even if Mike did return to AA (and other sites) apologizing, with hat in hands, he's still be accused by some of being insincere and just trying to do whatever he can to relaunch RVGS 2.0

So If I say you're a vitrial hater ruining this Forum, you can't complain unless you give me Money?

 

If I come here, advertise I want to sell a bunch of stuff, give a Price, and then after People have talked about it and negociatet, I double the Price and say: "if you don't buy it don't complain."

 

I don't follow that logic.

 

I followed Podcasts and scavanged for Information for months. Information they had, but either "forgot" to share, or just Chose not to. And then they come around calling the strong criticysm hate, and sort of offending People. Sorry if it's completely irrational to expect People to pay 350 Dollars for a System that offers almost nothing besides a super high Quality cartridge connector and a bunch of analogue Outputs. People will say a Project makes no sense if it makes no sense. And the lies/misinformation just go beyond anything. Saying the mist doesn't have a case when it has? Presenting the MIST as some unfinished product that's hard to use when it's made to be a finished product and user friendly?

 

But the guys who make the MIST didn't donate to the campaign, so no reason to complain.

 

Kevtris got a Meeting cancelled last Minute and got pretty much ejected from the Project just like that, but he didn't donate to the campaign, so he can't complain. He should apologyze for Sayin it doesn't cost 100k Dollars tro make a prototype for a console. How hare he. He doesn't have an ARM chip in his proto. They're incredibly rare and expensive, which justifies why the Retro didin't have a prototype.

Edited October 1, 2015 by leods

[PlaysWithWolves]

glazball, I see others have responded, so I don't mean to pile onto you. I would like address this:

 

And I think that even if Mike did return to AA (and other sites) apologizing, with hat in hands, he's still be accused by some of being insincere and just trying to do whatever he can to relaunch RVGS 2.0

 

It's not the community's fault if they don't trust a guy who exaggerated once too-often. "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me" is an adage for a reason.

 

It's just another hurdle Kennedy will have to overcome.

[+remowilliams]

Is running off with money the line in the sand? Cross that and it matters, do or say anything deemed not quite as naughty as outright theft and you're all good?

 

The line between intent and scam should not be as arbitrary as 'we didn't manage the huge pile of cash we were looking for'

 

I don't know for sure the intent of the individuals involved in running this, I do know how they acted, what they were aiming for and the incomprehensibly poor mismanagement of every bit seen from A to Z.

 

Personally, I have little doubt that had they raised a sufficient amount of funds - that this would have ended in disaster which in net effect (regardless of intent) would have been a scam.

[sh3-rg]

but secondly, because a number consider the whole deal to be something of a bait and switch.

Just want to point out that is not my opinion, I think the price increase happened over time as they attempted to cram more functionality and possibilities in there, maybe with a touch of cold hard reality as the numbers crept higher and higher and the practicalities of what they were attempting hit home.

 

 

Personally, I have little doubt that had they raised a sufficient amount of funds - that this would have ended in disaster which in net effect (regardless of intent) would have been a scam.

And I think you are right remow, it's hard to imagine everything falling into place and people getting what they would have pledged for and on time. There's like three kickstarters worth of stuff or more in that one all-encompassing ubercampaign. And it wouldn't have taken much for things to snowball/domino effect/however you want to put it. Then people would have pointed and claimed "scam", regardless of how that played out.

Edited October 1, 2015 by sh3-rg

[dashv]

Why do you feel you are due an apology? Unless you pledged to the campaign and had your money tied up, you have no stake in this at all.

 

I know you clearly said you are not associated with the RVGS guys, but it was written in first person which just left a bad taste in my mouth. However, I did agree with most of what you wrote. And I think that even if Mike did return to AA (and other sites) apologizing, with hat in hands, he's still be accused by some of being insincere and just trying to do whatever he can to relaunch RVGS 2.0

Fair question. One I think Mike is likely pondering himself. In that vein I'll answer.

 

Things were said at and about the very community he hopes to market a future product to.

 

Kevtris is not some random dude. He's a homebrewer and hardware hacker himself. I own a USB copy NES he designed! It's worked flawlessly the entire time I've had it. I played his ColecoVision game "Kevtris" just yesterday. Would love to have that on a cart. He's one of the very people these consoles are meant to inspire and empower. He voiced some concerns (in a pretty open, well articulated, and non trolling fashion) and they gave him the boot. Publicly.

 

Pat is not some random YouTube commenter. He's been around and part of the online retro game scene for over a decade.

 

If they aren't going to respect guys like that we'd be fools to believe they'll respect the rest of us.

 

At this point they need to double down on humility. They need to earn our trust back.

 

Best way to do that? Kill us with kindness and respect. Yes, even if they think we don't deserve it.

 

The trolls will keep trolling but it will be easier to spot them among the rest of the people just wanting clarity.

 

They should not be feeding the trolls or becoming trolls themselves. Not if they want to be viewed as a legitimate enterprise.

Edited October 1, 2015 by dashv

[dashv]

Glazball, don't feel ganged up on. You asked some good questions.

[kevtris]

 

To be fair, $2000 is what he personally spent not inlcuding his time to manufacture the prototype. He's been working on these cores in his spare time over the course of a decade. If you were to add up all the hours he put into it and paid the going rate for someone of his caliber, you'd probably end up with a bill well over $100k.

 

Yes, you are right- if you want to get someone else to design your proto and manufacture it, it's going to cost a lot more. The main point I was getting at though was that they were all trying to kick start their "dream" console, which implies to me that they needed to put more personal effort into it. If their idea was good enough to afford the $100K prototyping charges, then I think they probably could've gotten VC funding no problem. But since VC's were not interested, it means that they should've trimmed the fat and put more of their own time into it.

 

My example was to show that if you put your own time and effort into the project instead of farming it out, it could be done on the cheap vs. trying to raise enough money to go the Cadillac route vs. the Pinto one :-)

[bojay1997]

I really think people who WANT a cartridge based console to play newly developed games (and collect them) ought to give the 2nd coming of this project an honest chance. This was what Kennedy's goal was from the outset, and while there are some who came into this project with grudges against the man, most of us did not, quite the opposite. I think the original concept that he and Steve had is still one that should be examined. Frankly I would keep ALL planning for hardware core/emulation to the side. Yeah, that's right, table it. IMO there's a tiny tiny market for this kind of product, given that you can emulate these systems on just about every device sold over the last 5 years! Stick to the cart system to play new games, end of story. If it can't swim on that alone, then give up.

Wasn't the whole point of the FPGA and cores to serve as not just a means to play already released games, but more importantly, a way to give developers and publishers an easy road to releasing stuff that was either already completed or in development for other platforms on the Retro VGS on physical media? I don't recall Mike or Steve ever talking about a truly original platform that would play cartridge based retro games. My recollection is that this came later in their Facebook posts when people started posting wish lists for some kind of new 8 bit or 16 bit platform and then they talked about creating a new core that had unique characteristics that were different from the other classic cores. Don't you lose almost all of the developers if they have to create something for a unique platform that has a tiny niche audience?

 

Isn't what you're talking about just an Ouya, FireTV, Nvidia Shield, Razer Android TV or something similar that uses cartridges instead of either digital media or SD Cards?

Edited October 1, 2015 by bojay1997

[Andromeda Stardust]

FWIW, I just ordered two Nvidia Shield consoles since they are getting released outside the US now(oct 8

 

For me, a device like the Shield must be entered into the same fray as the other devices for retro gaming. As must any 50usd Android player...even though it is not kosher to say.

 

/Nicholas

But does it accept cartridges?

 

= = = = = = = =

 

Well, they claim to have canceled the campaign, but it's still going. $55,000 and dropping...

http://crowdcharts.com/campaign/retro-vgs/daily

Edited October 1, 2015 by stardust4ever

[Greg2600]

Wasn't the whole point of the FPGA and cores to serve as not just a means to play already released games, but more importantly, a way to give developers and publishers an easy road to releasing stuff that was either already completed or in development for other platforms on the Retro VGS on physical media? I don't recall Mike or Steve ever talking about a truly original platform that would play cartridge based retro games. My recollection is that this came later in their Facebook posts when people started posting wish lists for some kind of new 8 bit or 16 bit platform and then they talked about creating a new core that had unique characteristics that were different from the other classic cores. Don't you lose almost all of the developers if they have to create something for a unique platform that has a tiny niche audience?

 

Isn't what you're talking about just an Ouya, FireTV, Nvidia Shield, Razer Android TV or something similar that uses cartridges instead of either digital media or SD Cards?

 

Yes, they did mention the ability for devs to create games for classic systems using the RVGS as a tool. However, I would ask why bother? If the goal is to have your own platform, shouldn't they only coordinate releases for that platform? Why go through the cost to build a dev box for other systems? The "niche" platform was what I was highly skeptical of from the outset, and said so. The difference from Android, et al. would be that you could sell at a markup since it was a cart with manual and box. Maybe you can make $20 off the game per unit than $5, I don't know? Though you could argue that digitally you'd sell far more at $14.99 than 49.99. I was never "sold" on the concept, so I'm not the best to explain their logic. I was willing to see it through, and intrigued by what it would have been at market.

 

My example was to show that if you put your own time and effort into the project instead of farming it out, it could be done on the cheap vs. trying to raise enough money to go the Cadillac route vs. the Pinto one :-)

 

A Cadillac with a body of a '94 Chevy Cavalier!

[bojay1997]

Yes, they did mention the ability for devs to create games for classic systems using the RVGS as a tool. However, I would ask why bother? If the goal is to have your own platform, shouldn't they only coordinate releases for that platform? Why go through the cost to build a dev box for other systems? The "niche" platform was what I was highly skeptical of from the outset, and said so. The difference from Android, et al. would be that you could sell at a markup since it was a cart with manual and box. Maybe you can make $20 off the game per unit than $5, I don't know? Though you could argue that digitally you'd sell far more at $14.99 than 49.99. I was never "sold" on the concept, so I'm not the best to explain their logic. I was willing to see it through, and intrigued by what it would have been at market.

 

 

A Cadillac with a body of a '94 Chevy Cavalier!

I thought it was more than a mention. I recall just about every post after they finished with all those posts about color options were pretty adamant that the Retro VGS could become just about any classic system through cores and that the cores were what would attract well known developers to the system to release games that had never had a deluxe physical release or had only a limited physical release like Pier Solar. Admittedly, that's when things started to get weird as some of us started to point out that recent retro style games like Shovel Knight are actually very complex and would require starting from scratch to make them run on an NES core or something similar.

 

In any event, I don't know that a truly unique platform would attract developers unless you had a very substantial user base right out the door. You then have the problem of not being able to attract buyers for the hardware because there is no must have or unique software. I just don't know how you get around either problem short of having a massive amount of capital up front so you can essentially pay developers to create unique launch titles and keep the pipeline stocked with games until the user base is viable enough for small developers to put resources into doing unique titles for the platform. I mean the Neo Geo AES survived for years by essentially selling a few thousand copies of each new first party game at $300+ a pop, but it also benefitted from arcade sales of the same games and licensing of ports for other platforms and a niche audience that was willing to pay a premium for games. The later releases also tended to recycle graphic and game engine assets pushing development costs lower. Ultimately the niche wasn't enough to keep new first party releases coming and it really makes me wonder what the actual size of the collector's market for new cartridge based games is in 2015.

[Greg2600]

The customer base was a concern that many of us brought up at the start. I could be wrong, but I highly doubt that any true homebrew (no repro's) have ever sold more than say 200-250 copies with rare exceptions. Pier Solar was one, and had Nintendo not stepped in, I think Princess Rescue would have sold quite a bit due to the Mario fandom. This is where I think Mike took perhaps anecdotal evidence? I don't know, very sloppy.