How has this not been posted yet? Retro VGS

[001 Influence Device]

+100 on comeback. GG.

I hadn't seen that thread, but I'll quote something from it:

 

RVGS has the bigger task of trying to become relevant.

 

..and..

http://www.gamesradar.com/retro-vgs-console-isnt-return-golden-age-its-stunting-future/

 

That article explains exactly why a "new retro" console will never (should never) gain mass market appeal. It's almost like making a "new fps only" console.

 

IMHO, since you guys are gonna try again, have realistic goals this time around. Work with everyone in the community and value criticism. I can't stress this enough. Even bad criticism has truths in it you can use to forward your ideas. Whereas flattery helps nowhere.

[sh3-rg]

I wouldn't give that poll too much consideration, if I were in Mike's place. That poll was conducted before the dust had a chance to settle, and people were still laughing along with the guys who made parody videos, and before Mike posted his update/explaination/apology in this tread. If anything, the poll simply demonstrates to Mike that he needs to get his act together and show us a finalized prototype for round 2. And this prototype better have some good specs that we can all get excited about or it isn't going to fly.

 

Similarly, ignore the 16k+ LIKEs on facebook - they are beyond meaningless. If that's the extent of the market research, it's not going to be much fun going forward.

[+CyranoJ]

I don't see the admission to 'making up lists of developers who have signed up in order to mislead people into giving their money to a product that doesn't exist' in his post.....

 

Has everyone forgotten that it all wasn't just 'badly researched' and that a lot of it was deliberately misleading?

[PlaysWithWolves]

I don't see the admission to 'making up lists of developers who have signed up in order to mislead people into giving their money to a product that doesn't exist' in his post.....

 

Has everyone forgotten that it all wasn't just 'badly researched' and that a lot of it was deliberately misleading?

 

This is true and probably led to what he feels was his "name being dragged through the mud."

Maybe that's one lesson he's not picked up from this mess:

 

I don't know if Mike Kennedy is a liar, but I do know that he's at least 99% the reason some people think he's a liar.

 

Before IGG I felt I'd worked harder than I needed to in this thread try to give him a fair chance. On day one of IGG, I finally succumbed to "If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck."

 

If people drug his name through the mud, it's because they saw a duck.

 

Of course, I'd hope it just be something like over-enthusiasm or misspeaking. But he'll have to run a rock-solid campaign this time.

[ninja_gaiden2015]

 

..... Much of the criticism was valuable and I think we now know how to bring a viable product to market with a price point that most will agree with. But again, it's a balancing act trying to please as many people as possible while also trying to keep the price affordable.

 

Now all I ask is that you give my team a fair shot to win back your trust with our second effort that will go long way to address the concerns from the final weeks leading up to the IGG campaign. We will have a playable prototype and it will be on Kickstarter. Will there be some changes to the game lineup? Sure, we will be working on fleshing out the initial game launch list once we have all agreed on the hardware and the price point. ...

 

 

Thankyou for the apology Mike. I will always support a good product and will always endorse a team that openly/accuratley communicates with consumers and potentially new consumers. I respect the fact that you have reached out to us.

 

... Sorry to have to say it, but maybe you should reach out an olive branch to Pat the Nes Punk and Ian. You might not have liked hearing what they had to say, but your response to them wasn't professional.

 

All the best with your future endeavors.

 

Stu

[ninja_gaiden2015]

I don't see the admission to 'making up lists of developers who have signed up in order to mislead people into giving their money to a product that doesn't exist' in his post.....

 

Has everyone forgotten that it all wasn't just 'badly researched' and that a lot of it was deliberately misleading?

 

I agree with you and I won't take any new version of Retro VGS to be anything more than confirmed releases. Anything more is simply wishful thinking

[leods]

I think Parrotheads post here is a step in the right direction. I pull no punches in my Analysis of products and was highly critical of the Project presented to us on IGG. I am also critical of some of the Response from the Team to the obvious community Feedback they got. That said I don't believe there were ill intentions in the Project, but too many half truths and misleading aspecst of the communication between the Retro Team and it's public.

 

I said this and will stick by it: I did a Video saying the Retro VGS was a failure before the plug was pulled. It got over 1000 views. In the next Video I made I say: I don't believe These guys can pull it off, so I'll just stop coverage, because I won't have good things to say, but I consider it unfair to be at their necks from the start. So no more RVGS coverage from me. It's the best I can do to help this Project.

 

If Mike reads this I just want to say one Thing: You product has to do something beyond what a SNES or a Genesis offers. Seriously. Not better graphics and more processing. Thats too Little. The System Needs some sort of edge or it won't make sense purchasiong it even for 100 bucks.

 

That's all. And as so many other here, I do want to see a great product comming out of this Project and I will buy it and Support it if it happens. But just slapping an FPGA in a Jag Shell and plugging in some generic chinese Controller and an SD Card in a custom Shell just doesn't cut it. Not even Close.

[Greg2600]

Outstanding response from Mike, not much more to say. Maybe time to retire this thread?

[AE35]

This whole ordeal surround the Retro VGS has got me thinking. How much of a collector do I want to be? Over the last couple of years I have asked myself this question more and more: Is it my duty to preserve <insert game/thing here>?

 

I mean, during the years since I got LaserDisc in 1993 I have owned/still have 2001: a space odyssey on several different formats. On LD, DVD etc. Now I have a server at home where I keep movies. On that server I have 2001, Donnie Darko, The Thing, Westworld, Close Encounters. My wife always sort of laughs at me. Those movies are preserved by so many other people and companies. 2001 isn't going to get lost in time.

 

If it weren't for saving the data from old arcade games(like MAME, which many seem to dislike) games like Pac-Man and Galaga would disappear. Those pcbs are not going to last forever. Not even Mike Kennedys cartridges+console is going to last for ever. The internet is better at preserving games than cartridges/discs. How many people in the world has the Galaga ROM on their PC/burned to a CD/USB stick/memory card?

 

An old danish song states. "Hvis der er en sandhed, skrevet sort på hvidt, så er det at ingenting er dit".

 

For those of you who need to brush up on your danish, the rough translation is: "If there is a truth, written in black and white, it is that nothing is yours"

 

/Nicholas

Edited October 7, 2015 by AE35

[Parrothead]

I don't see the admission to 'making up lists of developers who have signed up in order to mislead people into giving their money to a product that doesn't exist' in his post.....

 

Has everyone forgotten that it all wasn't just 'badly researched' and that a lot of it was deliberately misleading?

 

I don't recall lying or being misleading when talking about developers. Earlier this year I did have a two hour face-to-face meeting, at Konami's El Segundo HQ with Michael Rajna, Konami's Director of Marketing & Licenses. He is a big retro gamer and liked what we were doing. We discussed brining back some old Konami arcade IP in the form of new games (like Resogun did with Defender) on RVGS. He was all for it but indicated they would like to wait it out until the product got more fleshed out. He did kindly ask me to not discuss Konami's involvement until we a had signed deal. As I said this was early on and I was gauging interest and there was and is some legitimate interest here. I recall a post here from someone stating that "some people consider emailing a company PR person as being in discussions with ....." And that was certainly never the case with any of my contacts with any of the developers I said we talked with.

 

We also met with Mika Mika and his team at Other Ocean up in Oakland a few months ago (Thank's Mike, btw for chiming in here a few pages ago). Mike is also a very big retro gaming fan and collector and liked our idea. I knew Mike was tied in with all the big publishers and always said, he could be our inroads to the bigger devs/pubs and that was all true. And, we discussed having them possibly work on some of the Konami arcade sequels as he already had a good relationship with them. They were also in discussions with SEGA on other business and thought they could help us make inroads there to bring back some of their 8/16 bit IP like Alex Kidd, Streets of Rage, etc. All real and legitimate. Oh, and we discussed having Mike himself create a RETRO game maker cartridge for RVGS and that is all still something that can happen if we are able to bring RVGS to market.

 

All along, I've said many times, that I feel if we as a community can all show there is a market for a machine like this, then we have the contacts and believe we can get the larger devs/pubs on board. Heck, we already had WayForward (and they/we were going to announce Shantae Pirates Curse half-way through the campaign as a purchasable title if the campaign was on the road to success) and DotEMU (Met Cyrille at GDC after having many emails directly with him (They are in France) very interested in porting/making games for this IF they were to see a successfully funded campaign coming together. We were going to start with Double Dragon Trilogy. But early on I mentioned having a SHMUP arcade compilation on RVGS -- that was going to be Raiden Legacy. But DotEMU decided after I revealed that teaser they would like to start with DDt instead. Again, all real but things have been a moving target throughout this process. I will try and not get anyone's hopes up anymore with any sideline discussions we are having that aren't 100% nailed down. That was my fault and it won't happen again.

 

I am sorry to see NG:DEV.TEAM go, but again, believe they will be back if there is a market here. They really saw RVGS as a replacement market for the declining/pirate ridden Dreamcast market. And I was excited to get their cartridge games down to a manageable price so that all of us who can't afford to game on the Neo Geo AES could have an opportunity to own and play their games on cartridges. Again, they were really on board and I believe they will be again IF we are successfully funded the second go-around.

 

As far as having over 150 dev's interested in making games for this. All true. We have been inundated with inquiries from dev's around the world since we leaked this all out a few months ago. Many small and just starting out devs to more established dev's. We have been shown dozens of early game screen shots and some video footage and have been sifting through them slowly. As I've indicated before, we aren't in a rush to launch with more than 6-10 titles until we see what kind of demand there is and what type of first year install base we might garner. We don't want to oversaturate the games as that is not good for anyone. The great news is, we will be able to pick the cream of the crop to bring onto RVGS and have plenty of quality games and developers to choose from. This is going to be Steve Woita's task to identify the games that will be brought onto the system and he is also going to lead a small team of experienced game testers that he's worked with in the past to QA our games before going onto cart. And there are future plans to begin developing first party games exclusive to RVGS (thus our discussions with David Siller, a platform game designing genius, who I am talking with again this week). Again, we needed to first get the console officially launched and funded before adding this component which will take tons of additional effort and resources.

 

Again, I apologize if any of you felt misleaded, but everything that I said revolved around something that actually happened and were more than just a few emails to PR people

Edited October 7, 2015 by Parrothead

[Akito01]

http://www.giantbomb.com/podcasts/giant-bombcast-10062015/1600-1375/

 

[cue to 1:16:00]

 

A surprising bit of mainstream coverage, since I'd have thought the RVGS to be well under their radar. They are clearly missing some of the granular details that everyone in this thread is aware of, but I think it is very interesting to hear the opinions of the more mainstream gaming community in this project.

 

"Their heart is in the right place, but this is the most misguided thing in the world."

[AE35]

Things that can speak FOR Mike Kennedy:

 

- Been in the community a long time.

- Coming back to this thread

 

Mike, it seems you are still invested in the RVGS. If it were a cash-grab attempt, you would probably be gone by now.

 

If the null hypothesis is that I would never pay money for a RVGS I would have to reject it.

 

/Nicholas

[Keatah]

Regarding RVGS, it needs to find its direction and its audience.

 

 

If it weren't for saving the data from old arcade games(like MAME, which many seem to dislike) games like Pac-Man and Galaga would disappear. Those pcbs are not going to last forever. Not even Mike Kennedys cartridges+console is going to last for ever. The internet is better at preserving games than cartridges/discs. How many people in the world has the Galaga ROM on their PC/burned to a CD/USB stick/memory card?

 

Provided those that make the things want them preserved. Most publishers today seemingly want digital downloads because of cheap distribution charges and that they can pull the plug anytime "to make room" for new games. Keep'em churning, you know?

 

I also don't get why people dislike MAME so much. If it wasn't for MAME I would not be able to enjoy any of my childhood games, not at least without planning a trip and driving several hundred miles to find an arcade that has them running. Multiple arcades even! How many miles would I need to log to play a set of 5 or 10 arbitrarily-chosen games? The time. The cost. The inconvenience. The scheduling. The sub-zero winter weather. Forget that! MAME solves all those problems.

 

Ohh dear gods!! I might have to give up the exact phosphor glow and bloom!! A small insignificant trade-off to make in order to see my old childhood "friends" again. Sigh.

 

Most MAME haters cite accuracy and true-to-life experiences. Bullshit on that too. Every arcade I went to as a kid had all their games adjusted differently from each other. Some had hackjob repairs on their monitors and controllers. Nothing was consistent. And MAME is nothing more than another interpretation, a vehicle, another variation, of the ideal holy-grail of a new (name-X) arcade machine. It comes very close and it does it repeatably and exactly. Who's to say THIS wasn't the way it was meant to be played - and that the first arcade machines were also merely vehicles for the idea of the game? Vehicles now sent to the junkyard.

 

The internet, modern HDD, M-disc, and the concept of multiple copies in multiple locations on multiple media types (including future migration ops) is about the best goddamned package you can assemble for preserving classic videogames for the long haul. What good will several nicely preserved examples of mainboards in a museum be? No one can play them. And they are prone to metal breakdown, whiskers, and umpteen other weird modes of failure.

 

IDK.. Some of you have VCSes from 1977. That's great. They still work. I have my emulator stuff from 1990. That's great. It still works. Which will be around 100 years from now? 200 years from now? Does it matter?

Edited October 7, 2015 by Keatah

[Greg2600]

Developer information is very intriguing. I said from day one, while I was not enthralled with the Jaguar shell reusage, I was always fairly confident that Mike would somehow pull this together. Like I said, the original concept would sink or swim this system. How many gamers out there still wish to buy and collect cartridges for new games? Unfortunately the IGG debacle failed to answer that, because it was overshadowed by the price due to feature creep. To consider this about preservation? No that's the wrong question, it's a test of whether you want to have a physical media for your new indie games? If you're fine with downloading to Steam or PSN or whatever, then this RVGS is definitely not for you. I'm someone who collects (though not usually CIB), so I'd be interested if they either get a new shell or I can somehow get over the Jaguar reuse.

Edited October 7, 2015 by Greg2600

[+5-11under]

Regarding RVGS, it needs to find its direction and its audience.

 

Definitely. There's so many reasons not to buy such a device.

[leods]

 

Definitely. There's so many reasons not to buy such a device.

´Reasons:

1: Atari 2600

2: Colecovision

3: Intellivission

4: Nintendo Famicom

5: Sega Master System

 

And the list goes on and on.

 

Just to reinforce what I said before. You can't see your product ina bubble. You have to look at the market. It's only even worth trying if you think your product has an edge on the others that are already out there. Specially if those products are actually cheaper.

 

Either this System has something great to offer, or only People who already completed their collections for pretty much all Retro Systems has any reason to get this at all (except for pure Hype).

 

Obviously Retro collectors with multiple complete Retro collections is a very small niche market.

 

Or did I miss something? Is there anything being offered here that diferentiates this product beyond "cartridges"? I'd very much like to know.

[roland p]

Well it's all about the games. If Konami made a Metal Gear for this system, I would buy it in a heartbeat.

[Parrothead]

´Reasons:

1: Atari 2600

2: Colecovision

3: Intellivission

4: Nintendo Famicom

5: Sega Master System

 

And the list goes on and on.

 

Just to reinforce what I said before. You can't see your product ina bubble. You have to look at the market. It's only even worth trying if you think your product has an edge on the others that are already out there. Specially if those products are actually cheaper.

 

Either this System has something great to offer, or only People who already completed their collections for pretty much all Retro Systems has any reason to get this at all (except for pure Hype).

 

Obviously Retro collectors with multiple complete Retro collections is a very small niche market.

 

Or did I miss something? Is there anything being offered here that diferentiates this product beyond "cartridges"? I'd very much like to know.

 

I've felt all along that there are some great new retro titles being made and I believe there are gamers who would enjoy having them on a cartridge. Yes, many of these great homebrew games are coming out on carts for original systems, but I have friends who grew up gaming on those classic consoles who I know still are retro gaming on their mobile devices, and have absolutely no idea that new games are still being made for them (original legacy systems). When I mention to them a NEW console that plays games like they enjoyed playing growing up they immediately love the idea of having a system like this. I believe there is a larger market for something like this above and beyond the niche collector market that exists here and on other classic gaming forums. We wanted to give developers the opportunity to reach people like my friends who have families and have no idea games are still being made for older systems. Giving these games additional "life" on a "new" system could open the market up and help all developers reach a market that before never existed. That is a really good thing! This was never meant as a replacement for the classic systems, but a new way to show a larger mass market that games like they love to play are still being made and there is a better way to play them than on glass touch screens. RVGS can bring these games to the forefront and out from just under the veil of forums like this.

 

Remember, RVGS was never intended to be an EMU machine. It will certainly have that ability and people will figure it out in no time but it's never been our main selling point. Then add to this the digital only retro games coming out. There are games that I personally wouldn't buy digitally that I would love to have on a permanent cartridge. Maybe I am alone in that thought but I certainly don't think so. This is why a system like RVGS is needed in my opinion. And you can choose to agree or disagree but I would like to find out and see if this could be a viable alternative (or addition) to the other modern day gaming systems.

Edited October 7, 2015 by Parrothead

[Bill Loguidice]

Remember, RVGS was never intended to be an EMU machine. It will certainly have that ability and people will figure it out in no time but it's never been our main selling point. Then add to this the digital only retro games coming out. There are games that I personally wouldn't buy digitally that I would love to have on a permanent cartridge. Maybe I am alone in that thought but I certainly don't think so. This is why a system like RVGS is needed in my opinion. And you can choose to agree or disagree but I would like to find out and see if this could be a viable alternative to the other modern day gaming systems.

 

That's fair, but to play devil's advocate for a moment, let's take a game like Shovel Knight as one example of an appealing indie game that an individual might want on cartridge. It's already available on no less than 10 different platforms, meaning it's not a scarce title and not something that's a concern to be saved for posterity. In other words, if someone wants to play it now, they most likely already have a platform to play it on. Ten, 20 years, etc., there will still almost certainly be multiple platforms to play it on. The same goes for other popular indie titles. There's no scarcity there, no real danger of not being able to play it indefinitely. I personally struggle with seeing how big of an audience there is who specifically wants those types of games on cartridge. If there is a reasonably sized audience that wants that (in the thousands, at minimum, who will buy at least 1 - 2 cartridges a year), then by all means you'll have them all to yourself and a reasonably sustainable business model. That's a big question mark to me, though.

 

I think there's great appeal in a machine that can mimic any other platform and run that platform's physical media, but that's of course not a consistent source of income. Once the console is bought and then the adapters are bought, theoretically the team might never see another cent. That's more of a shorter term business model, and one that's not sustainable once the potential market is saturated.

 

To wrap up the whole devil's advocate thing, personally, I think the basic premise is all right, but I'd just like to see more to it than "because it's on a cartridge" as the primary driver for this initiative to succeed.

[leods]

When I mention to them a NEW console that plays games like they enjoyed playing growing up they immediately love the idea of having a system like this.

 

I feel that People who can't be bothered to buy an SNES to Play the games they remember from their childhood won't really buy a RVGS. People already have a Smartphone in their pockets. And even if they don't have time they'll just Play somehting while waiting for an appointment, or in the subway or the Airport.

 

It's also really different if someone Encounters their old time friend and he says he's making a new console. Another Thing is People out there living their lives. Maybe they might buy a RVGS? probably not, but more probably they won't ever know about this.

 

Again, If People want to go back to playing old games they can buy an old console. If they want to Play a new game they already have a PC, a cellphone..

 

I know why I might buy a Retro VGS. But I really think this Vision that People really want this is too optimistic. I think People who really want this are a very small niche. This could work in that niche. But as I said, you'll have to deliver more than what all our other old consoles aready do. "because cartridges" doesn't cut it.

 

If you still believe this is a great idea, and if you find the People to buy this more power to you. It does feel though you're not able to filter the bias of your Vision and of the People around you. You're a passionate oldschool gamer surrounded by passionate oldschool Gamers. People made a joke, but it's a bit the truth. You live in retroland. We all do. But the world out there is much colder and harsher, and People might find the idea neat, but practicallity reigns absolute in the modern days. Damn, People are paying MORE on consoles for the convenience of a download instad of having to buy the game physical on Amazon!

 

This is an uphill battle. And the only People who will go for it at all are the seasoned veterans. (oldschool Gamers who are already active). I doubt you'll find too much of a new audience. Maybe something like the Wii, People buy because it sounds so cool, but after a couple months they just get dusty in the Corner. And for the RVGS that would mean failure, since Long Lasting Appeal is the whole Point of it.

Just my 2 Cents.

[toiletunes]

If the RVGS did 2600/5200/7800/Inty/Coleco out of the box, I would buy it on day one. One SD cart for each system instead of a cart adaptor. Retron doesn't touch these systems. All of a sudden, you're increasing your user base by offering something no one else has. My old systems don't like new tv sets. Instant library of games too. I might try Tiny Shovel once I have the console.

[Greg2600]

To wrap up the whole devil's advocate thing, personally, I think the basic premise is all right, but I'd just like to see more to it than "because it's on a cartridge" as the primary driver for this initiative to succeed.

 

Bill, at the end of the day this was the biggest question I had to. To be honest, they're not going to sell thousands of these consoles based on emulation/hardware cores. However, there are enough collectors out there who will want physical releases IF the games are really good. I mean, heck, remember the mania over getting a faux box for the Mega Man 9 digital release (Capcom press kit)? Classic emulation is great, but if it's going to double the price, don't bother. There are two dozen ways to emulate those systems as is.

[jaybird3rd]

It's good to see the apologies and the reflection about what went wrong with the campaign, but as others have said, there are more fundamental problems with the whole premise of the RVGS that don't seem to have been adequately considered. I think it might be a mistake to plow ahead with the project so soon, without more introspection and more market research.

 

The vision of the RVGS that we've been given so far has been shadowy and vague, and the closer one looks at it, the less complete it appears to be. There may be a good product idea there somewhere, but I think more time is needed to bring it into proper focus ... and to make sure that it isn't just an illusion.

[dj_convoy]

Again, all real but things have been a moving target throughout this process. I will try and not get anyone's hopes up anymore with any sideline discussions we are having that aren't 100% nailed down. That was my fault and it won't happen again.

 

 

I sincerely hope this is one of your biggest takeaways from all of this, Mike. We know you were excited but all the name dropping and assurances in the world don't mean a thing compared to tangible results.

[Bill Loguidice]

 

Bill, at the end of the day this was the biggest question I had to. To be honest, they're not going to sell thousands of these consoles based on emulation/hardware cores. However, there are enough collectors out there who will want physical releases IF the games are really good. I mean, heck, remember the mania over getting a faux box for the Mega Man 9 digital release (Capcom press kit)? Classic emulation is great, but if it's going to double the price, don't bother. There are two dozen ways to emulate those systems as is.

 

That's a valid point. There is a reasonably sized community of at least several hundred individuals that go gaga over boxes and manuals. They could even have feelies in some games. Certainly that would add to the value of physical releases of titles available on multiple other platforms. Again, whether that's enough to have a sustainable customer base, particularly at the prices they'll want to target (i.e., they'll need larger production runs to hit the price points they'll want), remains a big question mark.