How has this not been posted yet? Retro VGS

[Flojomojo]

[+Random Terrain]

...

 

TTS;DR

[triverse]

Mike, has anyone from your company, or PR firm, contacted any of the sites that have produced misleading article headlines in an attempt to correct this situation?

[Parrothead]

Mike, has anyone from your company, or PR firm, contacted any of the sites that have produced misleading article headlines in an attempt to correct this situation?

Hey Carl,

 

No and at this point not sure what it would get us. But it might be worth exploring. Most of the comment sections under the stories brought this all into light anyway. And I know you've gone in to dispell it in various places as well. We certainly could have been more careful with our words. As far as PR adding the title, it was run by me right before it was blasted out and it seemed OK at the time with the further indication that this was a step to revitalize a brand that I really figured most knew had long been out of business. The brand name is back would have been more accurate. But I think most understand at this point.

Edited December 23, 2015 by Parrothead

[Andromeda Stardust]

Hello Everyone.

 

It is the end of a very tumultuous year for me and in the spirit of Christmas and the holidays I wanted to come in here and ask those of you who will listen to let the past be the past as it relates to this (ad)venture. RETRO VGS is the past and COLECO Chameleon is the future. The Chameleon is not just a rebranded Retro VGS. Despite sharing some of the same internal components the hardware has been completely redesigned to lower the cost while maintaining much of its ability to play a wide variety of games in a variety of ways. To boil this all down to its essence we just want to produce a product that is different, affordable and will bring joy to people’s lives. The market will ultimately decide if we are crazy enough to believe a cartridge console can stand its ground in this age of digital delivery. There are clearly lots of people on both sides of this fence and ultimately it will all come down to the games that can be played and if they are compelling enough to vie for peoples hard earned money.

 

The COLECO branding was a business decision I made to bring instant brand recognition to the Chameleon. But I did not enter into this licensing agreement lightly, knowing that if done so, we have a lot to live up to. COLECO made some very influential, high quality and fun video gaming and electronic products during their time and we will try endlessly to carry on that tradition with the Chameleon. The recognition of having the COLECO logo on the system and the (game and console) boxes will make the Chameleon immediately identifiable by millions of people right from the beginning. In the end this is a good thing for all involved including us, our customers, our suppliers and distributors, our contract manufactures, potential retailers and probably most importantly to game developers. Mark and Chris at River West/Coleco Holdings are also very behind this product and will be helping out in a variety of ways, beginning by inviting us into their booth at Toy Fair which is where they want to officially begin rebuilding this brand in more concrete ways.

 

We know we have a mountain to climb and are prepared to do what it takes to plant a flag at the top. I will once again apologize to all of you for at times dissing some individuals and this community but it was hard being criticized by a group of my Atari and classic game lovin’ peers. I let it get to me on occasion and I do regret all of it. I am aware that we gave you all plenty to poke fun at and criticize but in the end, I believe the product will be much better for going through all of this. In my mind, the best way for me to apologize once and for all is to ultimately create a game system that will make most of you turn a 180 and win over your support and positive influence. And given the chance that is what I will do.

 

All I ask is moving forward into the New Year is you try and give the Chameleon a fair chance to stand on its own, and again forget about the past. Let it speak for itself when we reveal it to you all early this New Year. And finally, let’s respect one another and our opinions (some advice I am directing towards myself) and that goes for both believers and non-believers of what we are trying to do. In the end, we all love and are passionate about video games and sometimes this passion causes us to do uncharacteristic things.

 

Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays and I hope you all have a very Happy New Year!

 

- Mike

Talking the talk is cheap, but walking the walk is hard. If you've really done a 180 and manage to produce something tangible that wows investors, developers, and gaming enthusiasts alike, then I and possibly a lot of others on this forum will be ready to buy. I look forward to whatever you come up with, but understand that for the time being, people may be skeptical. I only hope that what you have to offer will be as good as you say. I wish you the best of luck.

[triverse]

Mike, I have to tell you man. I have done more work correcting your PR situation than your PR firm has causing it. You have to admit, how many people actually read the comments? How many BELIEVE the comments on articles such as those written about something like this? You took the time to contact me directly when you mentioned several company names in one of your posts on NintendoAge. I called those companies after writing my initial article on this (when it was the RVGS) and was either met with denial of even knowing what I was talking about or, in the case of Konami, asked to call one of their internal PR representatives. I called and was in a meeting call with a PR rep and a rep from their marketing department. They stated that yes, they knew of you and the RVGS but that was it- there was NO indication that they would be supporting the console at that time.

I am not sure why you feel you are "not sure what it would get" you to contact those sites and request the information be corrected but you felt it was worth your time to contact me about just a few names at the end of an article (not even mentioned in the title). You have not even corrected this information on your social media, a much easier task (as I have proven with my articles- I have tagged your company on Facebook and Twitter in multiple conversations about it).

 

Edit to add- just a few comments ago you stated that the PR company added information without your knowledge and released it. Now you state that you indeed did approve it just before release. Please clarify.

I appreciate your taking the time to talk with us about this but if you have a PR firm, why aren't they doing their job? While I appreciate your personally coming here and talking, if I was paying a PR firm I would expect them to do their job and help build/protect the brand they were hired to work on.

Edited December 23, 2015 by triverse

[elmer]

Thanks for the link! Very interesting article. There's lots to say about it, but one part in particular stood out:

 

With all the bulky assets created by modern game design tools—JPEG or PNG graphics, MP3 or WAV audio, and so forth, not to mention the code itself—a 100MB cartridge is going to fill up FAST, even with a relatively simple 2D game.

 

If they're anywhere near being ready to crowdfund a prototype, shouldn't they already know what the maximum capacity of the cartridge will be, and what kind of storage it will use internally? I don't know how you'd even decide on the pinout for the cartridge port unless you've already nailed down those specs, and until you do that, you can't choose a suitable cartridge connector or begin work on your board layout.

 

There are some broader questions about exactly how the cartridge will work in this system, but I'll get into those below ...

 

Mike even mentioning the new "100MB" game size gives us some room for intelligent guesses about the hardware.

 

A quick trip to any electronics site (like Newark) on the web shows ...

 

1GBit NAND flash (10 year data retention) approx $1.90 in qty 1000.

 

1GBit NOR flash (20 year data retention) approx $6.30 in qty 1000.

 

The NOR flash seems the likely candidate for a cartridge given Mike's desire for reasonable longevity, and the potential cartridge costs.

 

I'm guessing 100MB for the game, and 28MB for the OS & libraries.

 

What I'm curious about is the software side ... how careful are they going to be about avoiding any GPL'd bootcode/OS/libs if they're throwing this thing together so fast, seemingly without anyone that's actually had a history of doing the kind of system-software level programming that they'll need (unless they just throw uboot/linux/sdl/android/etc on there without any consideration of the legalities).

Edited December 23, 2015 by elmer

[bretthorror]

Since I'm the only one here not butthurt about the Coleco name being used (who gives a shit how Mike or the press uses the Coleco name, in this day and age, it's just a name and everyone knows that), I'll ask Mike a valid question that isn't all spilled milk.

 

Mike... if your game carts only hold 100MB, what about all the truly exception retro style titles of today that are over that limit? As I use Steam a lot, I know that these games get up there in sizes beyond 100 easily, and those tend to be the most well reviewed and eagerly anticipated ones. I've talked all the shit in the world, but I've also said the only thing I really care about are the games, so I was upset to hear that so many great games wouldn't have a chance on the console, thus basically telling me the games featured on the RVGS would be the really tiny ones that come on sale on Steam for a buck every month. And even though it's a retro style console, why not have the ability to play online co-op of these retro titles? Oftentimes the developers already have this programmed into the game already for the Steam release. As much as I like cartridges, I also feel that in paying a premium for them, we should all at least be able to get all the features out of them that gamers on PC/PS4/Wii U/Xone do. If your system could go online for co-op, for example, it'd make sense to buy a NES style game on the Chameleon rather than just buying a NES game for a system we all already own and don't have to invest in. Without setting yourself apart from the old systems somewhat and improving on what they can do, it seems like you're creating hardware for the sake of hardware.

[leods]

What's wrong with my post? Was I impolite? Was I unreasonable? I got completely ignored. Maybe Mike put me on ignore?

 

"1GBit NOR flash (20 year data retention) approx $6.30 in qty 1000."

 

20 years? Even Super Nintendo games would be gone by now....

[Parrothead]

What's wrong with my post? Was I impolite? Was I unreasonable? I got completely ignored. Maybe Mike put me on ignore?

 

"1GBit NOR flash (20 year data retention) approx $6.30 in qty 1000."

 

20 years? Even Super Nintendo games would be gone by now....

Hi Leods, notice that the AT story says 'closer to 100MB'. Kyle wrote the balance of that paragraph himself. We are still finalzing much of this info and we will let you all know where it falls when we are ready. In the end we want to support the largest games we can while keeping the cart prices in check. Edited December 23, 2015 by Parrothead

[jaybird3rd]

Mike even mentioning the new "100MB" game size gives us some room for intelligent guesses about the hardware.

 

A quick trip to any electronics site (like Newark) on the web shows ...

 

1GBit NAND flash (10 year data retention) approx $1.90 in qty 1000.

1GBit NOR flash (20 year data retention) approx $6.30 in qty 1000.

 

The NOR flash seems the likely candidate for a cartridge given Mike's desire for reasonable longevity, and the potential cartridge costs.

I did some quick searching, too—the prices are slightly higher on Mouser, which is where I looked—but I didn't do any digging beyond that for two reasons. First, $6.30 per 1GBit chip, even bought in bulk, is going to make for some rather expensive cartridges. There are new USB flash drives selling for that price which contain flash memories many times that size. Granted, this is a higher grade of memory, but consumers who don't understand that will balk at the price.

 

Second, that technology still wouldn't provide the kind of longevity that Mike said they were looking for in his interview: "If [older systems] had 20-year retention times, they'd all be unplayable right now ... whatever modern-day technology can give us for the best price we're trying to build as long a retention time as we can ... that's hugely important to [co-founder] Steve [Woita] and I, because everything we play is over 20 years old right now. Nobody builds a product to last 20 years these days." These chips are rated to retain data for "only" 20 years at the outside, and according to the spec sheets I've looked at, that's only a "typical" retention rate; they may fail even sooner.

[cybercylon]

Mike,

 

Can you see why there are a fair number of people are not going forget the past and trust what you say? As Stardust said, the talk is cheap, and I think it is unrealistic to expect people to take you at your word without something to show for with actions. It seems like there is an "answer" to something that someone points out (the PR, for example) without having said much of anything at all in the answer. Was buying a brand name without a working prototype a good idea? You said that line added by PR seemed okay at the time. Do you see how that does not make sense given what happened the first time around? triverse suggested that you should contact those sites that produced misleading article headlines to get them corrected? I would do more than "explore it". Taking the time to make sure those sites have it corrected is an action. I suggest fixing your own posts and announcement as well so it is just not festering there making people say "WTF?". That was my reaction.

 

If it is the publicity and business side of things that are giving you trouble, please get someone that knows what they are doing to work with you. That would be another action. There is no shame in getting the help in areas that are not a strength so things move forward. People are asking for more details about the cart design and the console itself. Providing some information with pictures and a time line of progress would be another form of action that would help with the trust issues that people understandably have. You don't need to get into every technical detail, but actual signs of concrete progress will help. Without some actions to back things up, it's another pile of crazy madness.

 

When this project was first announced, I did have some interest, but what took place... I still can't figure it out. At the end of the day, whether or not something nice and substantial exists won't make or break my life one way or another. It is a hobby after all. So we will see what happens in the next 2-3 three months, especially after that toy fair. That said, I would highly recommend some sensible actions to back up the words. Take that as you will... at the end of the day, all someone can do is recommend, and it is up to you to act on it or not.

[bojay1997]

It was time for us to establish a new identity for this product moving forward and that was one of the main goals of the press release. We are having a variety of ongoing conversations with companies and people who are working with us in various capacities on this project and we've stopped referring to it as the RVGS. It was something that needed to be done.

You seem to lack patience or any ability to plan in advance what you are going to do and this just seems like another situation where you rushed to get something out that now you acknowledge was at best inaccurate and at worst grossly misleading. Your first attempt to create this "console" was an unmitigated disaster and yet here you are just a couple of months later announcing a new identity and that you will be showing a prototype at a national trade show attended by the very people who in theory could make or break this product in less than two months. You also seem to be making the same misleading claims about industry heavy hitters wanting to meet with you or support your product. Guess what? Toys R Us attends the Toy Fair every year and they will likely meet with just about everyone there with any kind of tangible product. Claiming that this shows industry support is just totally false.

 

Why not take a year or two to create a really compelling prototype, do some testing and then go out to developers and show them that prototype with an actual financial and marketing plan for how you intend to sell the hardware? Why not give the developers time to create actual unique and proprietary content rather than forcing them into your hasty and haphazard schedule? Why continue to pursue a crowdfunding approach to this when you seem to want to start an actual business? Why not raise the funding yourself, prove the concept by actually generating some sales and by answering to real investors? I think that perhaps at the end of the day, the answer to all of these questions is the same. Deep down you know this isn't viable and putting the actual time and effort into doing this right would just distract you from your ability to live in this fantasy world you've created where you can launch a viable niche hardware and software business in the modern era with little or no money, experience or relationships and have it become a massive success.

[roland p]

I'm really not interested in the specs until this system is materialized into some sort of prototype/proof-of-concept. Last time we kept asking for specs it went all wrong, so let them finish their work (building the thing) first.

[+Gemintronic]

Mike, I have to tell you man. I have done more work correcting your PR situation than your PR firm has causing it. You have to admit, how many people actually read the comments? How many BELIEVE the comments on articles such as those written about something like this? You took the time to contact me directly when you mentioned several company names in one of your posts on NintendoAge. I called those companies after writing my initial article on this (when it was the RVGS) and was either met with denial of even knowing what I was talking about or, in the case of Konami, asked to call one of their internal PR representatives. I called and was in a meeting call with a PR rep and a rep from their marketing department. They stated that yes, they knew of you and the RVGS but that was it- there was NO indication that they would be supporting the console at that time.

 

I am not sure why you feel you are "not sure what it would get" you to contact those sites and request the information be corrected but you felt it was worth your time to contact me about just a few names at the end of an article (not even mentioned in the title). You have not even corrected this information on your social media, a much easier task (as I have proven with my articles- I have tagged your company on Facebook and Twitter in multiple conversations about it).

 

Edit to add- just a few comments ago you stated that the PR company added information without your knowledge and released it. Now you state that you indeed did approve it just before release. Please clarify.

 

I appreciate your taking the time to talk with us about this but if you have a PR firm, why aren't they doing their job? While I appreciate your personally coming here and talking, if I was paying a PR firm I would expect them to do their job and help build/protect the brand they were hired to work on.

 

I think Mike is getting a pretty bumpy ride. If he shuts up it's vaporware. If he makes speculative statements they are picked apart and deemed lies when things change. Likewise, he has to appease big companies and manufacturers but also us retro gamers at a ground level. It's a niche market but requires the momentum of a non-niche gadget. Mistakes were made. Mistakes are being made. All I know is that I have neither the balls or foolishness to attempt what he is doing - TWICE.

 

Let's call him out but also encourage forward progress. I missed out on the FPGA Arcade. The Chameleon64 is too expensive. This is a step forward.

[tep392]

People are asking for more details about the cart design and the console itself. Providing some information with pictures and a time line of progress would be another form of action that would help with the trust issues that people understandably have. You don't need to get into every technical detail, but actual signs of concrete progress will help. Without some actions to back things up, it's another pile of crazy madness.

These sound like the requirements of an investor or someone within the organization. When was the last time you made a request like this to Sony or Nintendo about a system they were developing? What exactly does Mike owe you and why? I'm not trying to be argumentative. I'm just trying to understand these demands that in my opinion would be out of line if we were talking about a major corporation developing a new system. Timelines? It's not like you are an investor that has something to lose. You act like you are Mikes boss.

[InnovaX5]

These sound like the requirements of an investor or someone within the organization. When was the last time you made a request like this to Sony or Nintendo about a system they were developing? What exactly does Mike owe you and why? I'm not trying to be argumentative. I'm just trying to understand these demands that in my opinion would be out of line if we were talking about a major corporation developing a new system. Timelines? It's not like you are an investor that has something to lose. You act like you are Mikes boss.

Because its being funded by the public. It's a Kickstarter project in the works. When was the last time Nintendo did a crowdfunding campaign? If the Chameleon wasn't a Kickstarter then mike doesn't need to show us or tell us anything. Only a complete idiot is going to donate to the Kickstarter when again nothing is known about this thing other than the name, the controller and a 3d render of what it might look like.

[108 Stars]

 

I think Mike is getting a pretty bumpy ride. If he shuts up it's vaporware. If he makes speculative statements they are picked apart and deemed lies when things change. Likewise, he has to appease big companies and manufacturers but also us retro gamers at a ground level. It's a niche market but requires the momentum of a non-niche gadget. Mistakes were made. Mistakes are being made. All I know is that I have neither the balls or foolishness to attempt what he is doing - TWICE.

 

Let's call him out but also encourage forward progress. I missed out on the FPGA Arcade. The Chameleon64 is too expensive. This is a step forward.

Yeah, that's why I said I can understand he is NOT promoting the system with details on specs and games right now. The Coleco news has gotten some broad attention, but also gotten negative reactions in the retro community. With this negativity being so fresh, pretty much anything he would announce right now would likely be shredded to pieces.

 

I think it may actually wise of him to wait a bit and let everything cool down before presenting more.

Edited December 23, 2015 by 108 Stars

[bretthorror]

One thing I never thought of that just popped into my head, will save progress require an internal battery in the cart or would it be in the system? No use carts lasting 100 years when the battery lasts for 20, leaving you with a useless cart. I know my beloved NHL '95 battery stopped work a few years after I got it when I was a kid and it killed me since it's one of my top 50 games of all time, easily. It wasn't as easy as buying NHL '98, because the gameplay was night and day.

[tep392]

Because its being funded by the public. It's a Kickstarter project in the works. When was the last time Nintendo did a crowdfunding campaign? If the Chameleon wasn't a Kickstarter then mike doesn't need to show us or tell us anything. Only a complete idiot is going to donate to the Kickstarter when again nothing is known about this thing other than the name, the controller and a 3d render of what it might look like.

When the design specs are finalized and a proto is built and it's ready to actually start the kickstarter, then I would expect all these questions should be answered. Then and only then do people need to decide if they are going to fund it. I really think you all are being too pushy for info and feedback. Be patient and wait for the kickstarter to be ready.

[PlaysWithWolves]

These sound like the requirements of an investor or someone within the organization. When was the last time you made a request like this to Sony or Nintendo about a system they were developing? What exactly does Mike owe you and why? I'm not trying to be argumentative. I'm just trying to understand these demands that in my opinion would be out of line if we were talking about a major corporation developing a new system. Timelines? It's not like you are an investor that has something to lose. You act like you are Mikes boss.

 

Mike was asking forgiveness, patience and to trust him. Cybercylon was was laying out the path to achieve those goals.

[bretthorror]

Yeah, that's why I said I can understand he is NOT promoting the system with details on specs and games right now. The Coleco news has gotten some broad attention, but also gotten negative reactions in the retro community. With this negativity being so fresh, pretty much anything he would announce right now would likely be shredded to pieces.

 

I think it may actually wise of him to wait a bit and let everything cool down before presenting more.

 

If he wants good news, the system is online, costs $129.99 and carts are $24.99 and he has 10 games officially announced. That is the only way he's gonna get good news. If prices go higher and game quantities lower, the fewer and fewer people will want it and the shredding increases. RVGS totally missed was people want retro gameplay with modern aspects. That's why everyone shit on the non-online part of it. Even hardcore retro gamers thought that was stupid... because it is in 2015. As a console maker, their team is supposed to be giving us what we want, not to mention they're crowdfunding the thing, adding further insult to injury. When no one backed their RVGS vision, that was their ideal console being left in the dust because nobody wanted it in that form. The Chameleon will be the same way, even if the price is dropped considerably, if they didn't listen to what people wanted. If all Mike did was lowered the price, he's still got a basically hopeless console. A low goal and lower prices might help them bring the system to fruition, but if 500 saps raise 200 grand, the world isn't gonna be jealous of their console because it's not gonna have any games to play.

[Andromeda Stardust]

One thing I never thought of that just popped into my head, will save progress require an internal battery in the cart or would it be in the system? No use carts lasting 100 years when the battery lasts for 20, leaving you with a useless cart. I know my beloved NHL '95 battery stopped work a few years after I got it when I was a kid and it killed me since it's one of my top 50 games of all time, easily. It wasn't as easy as buying NHL '98, because the gameplay was night and day.

I have games that are 25 years old and the battery still saves. Granted some of these games do have batteries that need replacing, and before I start any 8- or 16-bit RPG or adventure game, I replace the original battery regardless of what the multimeter says. Truth be told these batteries were only rated for a 5 year lifespan, but in practice many lasted ten and in some cases 15-20 years and still work. Your NHL '95 was clearly a fringe case, the exception rather than the rule. The 10- or 20-year flash retention may be a bare minimum. Just like the batteries were guaranteed to last 5 years but many lasted for 20, the flash may very well last 40 years or more for all we know. Flash is basically like dozens or even thousands of EPROM cells that can be erased electronically. Many EPROM games are pushing 30 years old and even 40 in the case of arcade boards, and the games still work error free without bit rot. The manufacturers probably did not have any expectation that the arcade games would last longer than 5 years or so continuous usage, as popularity would fade and new games inevitably replace them, but with a little TLC, some have been kept in service for nearly 40 years now.

[elmer]

Second, that technology still wouldn't provide the kind of longevity that Mike said they were looking for in his interview: "If [older systems] had 20-year retention times, they'd all be unplayable right now ... whatever modern-day technology can give us for the best price we're trying to build as long a retention time as we can ... that's hugely important to [co-founder] Steve [Woita] and I, because everything we play is over 20 years old right now. Nobody builds a product to last 20 years these days." These chips are rated to retain data for "only" 20 years at the outside, and according to the spec sheets I've looked at, that's only a "typical" retention rate; they may fail even sooner.

 

The chip isn't doesn't self-destruct in 20 years ... it just suffers bit-rot on the last-programmed data.

 

Simple solution ... have the console itself reflash the game image when a game is run. That extends your date another 20 years. 100,000 write cycles on a NOR flash.

 

Silly solution ... it's Mike's plan to pass a business down to his kids and grand-kids ... charging $10-a-time to reflash the 100's of millions of Coleco Chameleon cartridges that will be sold.

[bretthorror]

I have games that are 25 years old and the battery still saves. Granted some of these games do have batteries that need replacing, and before I start any 8- or 16-bit RPG or adventure game, I replace the original battery regardless of what the multimeter says. Truth be told these batteries were only rated for a 5 year lifespan, but in practice many lasted ten and in some cases 15-20 years and still work. Your NHL '95 was clearly a fringe case, the exception rather than the rule. The 10- or 20-year flash retention may be a bare minimum. Just like the batteries were guaranteed to last 5 years but many lasted for 20, the flash may very well last 40 years or more for all we know. Flash is basically like dozens or even thousands of EPROM cells that can be erased electronically. Many EPROM games are pushing 30 years old and even 40 in the case of arcade boards, and the games still work error free without bit rot. The manufacturers probably did not have any expectation that the arcade games would last longer than 5 years or so continuous usage, but with a little TLC, some have been kept in service for nearly 40 years now.

 

I have games that still save too, I'm just saying this would be a severe kick in the balls to the games on this system that we're paying a premium for to last 100 supposed years to die out in 25. It's just another example of shit that was done 25 years ago out of necessity and doesn't hold up in the modern day when it can be easily fixed with the modern touch. That's why I don't understand why it's so hard for some people to grasp that as much as everyone will entertain the idea of a retro inspired console for a good price, it still has to be efficient and work. That new Raspberry Pi Zero is $5, Christ, put the game on there and put it in a cart shell and plug it into your TV and and outlet, I guess. I dunno what else to say when a Raspberry Pi is $5 in today's world and we're looking to put a couple hundred MB on a cart for $50. Don't sacrifice integrity, but use modern advances to make this system the best it can be instead of a stripped down machine is all I'm saying. If there's a way to have a game on a cart and fake it, do it, because the authenticity means nothing to most people. If it did the Retron 5 wouldn't just be emulators.