How has this not been posted yet? Retro VGS

[+CyranoJ]

As of this post, I am going to chime out here as there is nothing that even remotely comes in the form of meaningful constructive criticism. And Kevin, I guess we will look elsewhere for our core development.

 

That's because you have supplied nothing that even remotely comes in the form of anything substantial to criticize.

 

[Edit]

 

Other than extremely overpriced cases and cart shells.

Edited September 20, 2015 by CyranoJ

[kevtris]

A few more thoughts about some kind of new "retro" videogame system I thought I would throw out there:

 

I was thinking the other day if you really wanted to make some kind of "new" retro videogame system, the best approach might be to start with a retro-style video interface, including sprites, background layers, and all the usual trappings of say the SNES, genesis, etc. but the twist is integrating a modern CPU such as an ARM with it. Think 256+ sprites per scanline, any size, 8 background layers with 'mode 7' style rotation/scaling, and with 32 channel 16 bit stereo digital audio.

 

This would allow for retro-style games, done in a more original form but with a modern CPU to make coding it so much easier and faster. The sprite and background engines would be fairly decent, and more capable of either SNES or genesis, while still operating in a similar same manner. That would kind of "enforce" the look and feel of the games while giving it most of the modern day conveniences like fast CPUs and large storage capabilities and being able to write your code in i.e. C.

 

The big problem with doing this though is the total 100% lack of games for it. Without enticing exclusive games that people would gotta have, it's a total nonstarter. No one is going to take hundreds to thousands of manhours writing games for such a system if it does not have an installed base. And it can't get an installed base without games. Frankly, MAKING the hardware is the super duper easy part. Writing the games to run on it... not so much. You pretty much have to give a developer buckets of money to write an exclusive game, because they might never see any more money once the initial payment is made if it doesn't take off.

 

Just looking at games like Super Metroid (I'd consider this a "gotta have" type title), I can't imagine how many thousands and thousands of man hours this game took to write, and then thousands and thousands more hours of play testing and feedback it took. And this is a lowly SNES title that fit into 3 megabytes (24 megabits). Writing a modern game's code might be easier today, but it's not very easy shortcutting all the artwork that goes into the graphics and such if you want a top tier quality game. This is one problem I had with Tiny Knight- don't get me wrong, it might be a great fun game to play, but it sure is lacking on art direction department which just gives it that "unfinished indie game" vibe to me. I only mention this because the RVGS is using it as their "gotta have" top tier launch title.

 

I had the idea many many times of coming up with this kind of "modern" system but the total lack of software support always stopped me from pursuing it. I would end up being the only person to write code for it.

 

And a final "ferinstance", re: the difficulty of hardware vs. software, I think I spent about 2 weeks designing that HDMI adapter for the NES, and another 2-3 days to assemble it and bring it up (test all the hw), but the software end took another 6 months of on and off work. If I compressed all the software work into a consecutive block, I probably put 3 to 3.5 months into it of 5-8 hour nights. If I sell 800 units I will maybe break minimum wage on the hours put in after paying for the hardware and tools I bought for the project. if I'm lucky. The total project was about 8-9 months from initial discussion to final shipping product. Figure something like an RVGS would take 2-3 months of hardware design (planning, PCB design) and another month of hardware assembly and bringup. There'd be a lot of small sub systems to test, so bringup (getting the hardware to work) would take significantly longer. After all that, THEN the fun begins: writing your software.

 

Going by my off the cuff estimate, the software end takes 8-10x longer than the hardware does, if not longer. So I don't think their 1 year estimate is at all attainable.

 

(not to toot my own horn, but if you want to see the down and dirty progress of how that HDMI adapter was made, I have a series of videos I made on youtube showing pretty much all of it from initial design, initial prototypes, then a timelapse of me doing the complete layout on the redesigned board, up to final testing and shipping. my channel's name is "kevtris").

 

Sorry to throw some water on the fire but I think honesty and reality from someone who does this for a living (yah I do this kind of stuff at work too- just not with videogames) and has over 100 products under his belt is in order here.

[bojay1997]

 

 

Totally misunderstood my post. I was talking more about Trademark. If they hold the Retro Magazine trademark and come after Retro Gaming Magazine, he can prove he used that name before etc. and that the USPS stamp is a good way to cheaply and officially copyright something.

Proving you used a name before a valid trademark holder doesn't necessarily mean you have a defense to an infringement of trademark claim. As others have noted, there were at least two other magazines I am aware of, "Retro" and "Retro Gamer" that predated both Retro Gaming Magazine and Retro Magazine, so they would likely have an even stronger argument. Indeed, the threshold to even obtain a trademark is generally use in commerce and sending yourself a copy of a magazine without proof that it has actually been sold commercially is pretty worthless.

[PikoInteractive]

Please stop beating a dead horse.

 

Im talking about them in particular if ever a trademark holder comes after them to shut them down or collect settlement money. Nobody is talking about before and after or othet parties. I am talking about Retro Gaming Magazine in particular and his website.

 

My last post about the subject.

 

Cheers!

[bojay1997]

Wow. Kevin ?!?!

 

First off, we were going to pay Kevin his asking price for the licensing of the cores and this was build into our funding goal ($10K/core) and had another $50K +/- in our funding budget to pay him for the 16 bit cores he has yet to develop. And these could have been shared with the community or whatever, not exclusive to us. And I could care less if Kevin used these cores to sell his board in addition to ours, he could have had both opportunities. We are selling two entirely different kinds of products. It really is amazing how everything gets turned around in these forums.

 

We are just three legitimate guys who want to bring a cool product to market. It's as simple as that. And set up it up as a real sustainable business that can continue to support the platform for a long time.

 

As of this post, I am going to chime out here as there is nothing that even remotely comes in the form of meaningful constructive criticism. And Kevin, I guess we will look elsewhere for our core development.

You're three guys with a poor business plan and no funding that want people to give you almost two million dollars and pay market rate salaries for a year while you spend other people's money to create a commercial venture that isn't even conceptually proven to work. The fact that you have lost a developer (Piko) and the guy who was supposed to develop your cores (i.e. the very heart of how your concept would work) in one day speaks volumes about your incompetence and delusional nature. Why wouldn't you have locked your core developer into a deal before you launched this ill-fated project? The post-mortem is going to make a heck of an article in your magazine and you can probably auction off your cardboard prototype on Gamegavel assuming either one is still around in a month or two.

[bojay1997]

Please stop beating a dead horse.

 

Im talking about them in particular if ever a trademark holder comes after them to shut them down or collect settlement money. Nobody is talking about before and after or othet parties. I am talking about Retro Gaming Magazine in particular and his website.

 

My last post about the subject.

 

Cheers!

Yes, and I have explained to you that just showing that you used a name first by producing a copy of a magazine you purported to send to yourself is not enough to defend yourself against such a claim. Believing otherwise is foolish.

Edited September 20, 2015 by bojay1997

[+CyranoJ]

I had the idea many many times of coming up with this kind of "modern" system but the total lack of software support always stopped me from pursuing it. I would end up being the only person to write code for it.

 

 

Make it happen and Reboot will code for it. Oh look, you now have one more 100% confirmed dev than RVGS does.

 

MegaFly DX Ultra+ would be amazing

Edited September 20, 2015 by CyranoJ

[+remowilliams]

A few more thoughts about some kind of new "retro" videogame system I thought I would throw out there

 

Thank you, again... For MAKING ALL THE SENSE

[triverse]

I may have been off on the date we produced the preview, it is showing 2012 on Magcloud but that is when we made it available for sale:

http://www.magcloud.com/browse/issue/315758(sold commercially, I believe or are we only counting sales at stores like Wal-Mart? If so, then RETRO doesn't qualify either as they are not on news stands that I know of).

 

Still, a year prior to RETRO Magazine getting the "trademark/copyright" but still, as bojay mentioned, years after others were already using those words in the title of publications. We were also using the same initials we are now RGM but it was Monthly instead of Magazine for the "M".

 

Piko, you were a developer for the RETRO VGS? I need to go back through this thread (I was at around page 35 or so and realized there were 60 pages total then skipped to the end).

I am thinking about writing another article about them losing their FPGA core developer, and apparently Piko Interactive if I can find proof of that.

[+Random Terrain]

. . . and being able to write your code in i.e. C.

Or an adapted version of batari Basic?

[PikoInteractive]

You're three guys with a poor business plan and no funding that want people to give you almost two million dollars and pay market rate salaries for a year while you spend other people's money to create a commercial venture that isn't even conceptually proven to work. The fact that you have lost a developer (Piko) and the guy who was supposed to develop your cores (i.e. the very heart of how your concept would work) in one day speaks volumes about your incompetence and delusional nature. Why wouldn't you have locked your core developer into a deal before you launched this ill-fated project? The post-mortem is going to make a heck of an article in your magazine and you can probably auction off your cardboard prototype on Gamegavel assuming either one is still around in a month or two.

And one developer that has actually shipped a physical product.

[PikoInteractive]

I may have been off on the date we produced the preview, it is showing 2012 on Magcloud but that is when we made it available for sale:

http://www.magcloud.com/browse/issue/315758(sold commercially, I believe or are we only counting sales at stores like Wal-Mart? If so, then RETRO doesn't qualify either as they are not on news stands that I know of).

 

Still, a year prior to RETRO Magazine getting the "trademark/copyright" but still, as bojay mentioned, years after others were already using those words in the title of publications. We were also using the same initials we are now RGM but it was Monthly instead of Magazine for the "M".

 

Piko, you were a developer for the RETRO VGS? I need to go back through this thread (I was at around page 35 or so and realized there were 60 pages total then skipped to the end).

I am thinking about writing another article about them losing their FPGA core developer, and apparently Piko Interactive if I can find proof of that.

 

 

They have deleted their announcement in facebook for super noahs ark 3D and obviously not included it on the indiegogo. They havent notified me in writing but I take it as a strong sing we are out of this.

[Mux]

@parrothead...

 

I just don't get it.. Why is it so difficult to show a WIP? All Kevin did was show you the board(s) he made, explained how much time he spent on it and basically tried to explain to people that your numbers were high. You then immediately jumped down his throat and told everyone that you won't be soliciting cores from him. Really? First of all, if this is even true, I would expected to have Kevin mention part of this. Secondly, if you're scrambling for cores, then what the hell are you guys working on?

 

The bad voodoo stems from the fact that you guys just don't show anything other than injection molded cases and slick 3d videos without showing ANYTHING that resembles the tech behind the console, despite the fact that the hardware guys had PLENTY of time to get at least SOMETHING up. I mean, seriously... So now you're making it sound that Kevin was in cahoots with you and is now effectively 'cut off' because he, like most of us here, have some serious doubt about the validity and capability of your team.

 

-Mux

Edited September 20, 2015 by Mux

[+madman]

@parrothead...

 

I just don't get it.. Why is it so difficult to show a WIP?

Because they have no idea at all what they're doing. The entire campaign is based around limited edition this and limited edition that, games that will still work in 20 years, "LOOK, RETRO!!! CARTS!!!" etc. Absolutely zero detail about any actual hardware. Because they have NOTHING. But hey, according to them the Jag molds and OEM knockoff controller are the majority of the project.

[Mux]

As I mentioned earlier, and Kevin backed agreed with, the software part is going to take a very, very long time. From what I understand, they're going to outsource it? That's a recipe for disaster. For the amount of money they're asking, they should be able to staff up and get their hands dirty as well. Just throwing it over the fence isn't going to work. Another point that's completely unaddressed is what 'the toolchain' entails. Drivers, debuggers, assemblers, linkers, etc. Are you going with GNU? LLVM? Who's doing that? What's the timeline? Granted these are all areas that don't need to have been disclosed up front but at least it'd be good to have some insight in.

 

From where I'm sitting, they're hopelessly underestimating what it takes to bring a product to market..

 

-Mux

Edited September 20, 2015 by Mux

[kevtris]

 

As of this post, I am going to chime out here as there is nothing that even remotely comes in the form of meaningful constructive criticism. And Kevin, I guess we will look elsewhere for our core development.

After cancelling the last meeting with me a day after setting up and saying you weren't even sure it was going to have the FPGA on it any more, I figured I had been spec'd out of the project along with the FPGA since it was going to be too expensive.

 

I wish you the best on the project, but I think the time allocated to design and build and program it is going to be too short. So far, no specs have been nailed down yet after this long. If you keep chasing rainbows (newer better faster chips, 3D, etc) you'll never get to the pot of gold. The first part of any of my projects is to nail down specs BEFORE I even think of launching Altium (PCB software). This includes researching and developing what chips I want to use, how much they cost, and what the advantages and disadvantages of each are.

 

I think I spent 4 days on just power supplies alone. Not designing the board for it- just researching different options to find the cheapest/best one I could. I spent 8 hours researching just how to route the stupid differential clocks on my DDR memory. 8 hours for TWO routes. I wanted to make sure I was doing it right, because a failure on the clock means the RAM wouldn't work at all. Spent another day finding good DACs, and so on. I chose PCIe connectors for the analog board and expansion because they were durable and CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP! I think the 8x connector was under 2 dollars (that's the big one along the back).

 

Once all the R&D was out of the way, then finally I started layout. I wanted to lay the board out without having to redo parts over and over because that makes it tough to get good component packing densities.

 

I will give you a few design protips too to maximize your chances of success:

 

* Put your high density parts (SOC, etc) onto as small of a board as you can if it's 6 or more layers. The smaller the better. Put all the noncritical hardware (controller port stuff, USB, power supplies, etc) on a 2 or 4 (less desirable) layer board that fills out the enclosure. This will save lots of money in board costs. Link the two with castellations (solder pads on the 2 layer board, edge "hole" doodads on the 6/8 layer one) or maybe flat flex ribbons. Former costs soldering time, latter cost is the connector which isn't that high these days.

 

* Make your board rectangular and not trapezoidal, this will make routing and placement easier.

 

* Narrow the board down some if possible to save material costs. The Y dimension is kind of fixed by the jag case, but X can probably be squeezed down. The limit will be screw bosses and cart port width.

 

 

Don't worry, I have no plans to release any kind of FPGA videogame system at the moment. I still am not sure that people would float the costs.

[+remowilliams]

So it's kind of been long proven that prolonged exposure to the Jaguar plastics causes some kind of inexplicable insanity...

 

It seems that exposure to the actual Jaguar plastic mold dies causes something infinitely worse beyond anyone's imagination.

[toiletunes]

Hahahahah!!!! You will NEVER get my system poopyheads!!!!

 

(sorry, it had to be said.)

[+Tarzilla]

kevtris, on 19 Sept 2015 - 9:12 PM, said:

 

Don't worry, I have no plans to release any kind of FPGA videogame system at the moment. I still am not sure that people would float the costs.

I think you would be surprised by people's response to this when the RetroVGS fails materialize. Many people I know were interesting when the FPGA was part of the specs, with the core being loaded from the cart along with the game. That meant I could use my existing development process and produce new games that I could release on the Intellivision and ColecoVision with native carts and on the VGS. What interested me the most was the idea that the FPGA could be enhanced to be a ColecoVision 2 that would include the Super Game Module, eliminate the 4 sprite per line issue, add more RAM add more sprites etc. Thereby enforcing the retro feel, but eliminating the little deficiencies.

 

Or an Intellivision III as described on the Intellivision Lives site that had more RAM, used the STIC to its full abilities so it could use single line cards, add more MOBs etc.

 

I would have thought that a licensed core would have been an easy thing to get from Intellivision Productions or River West (ColecoVision) for the VGS, now I'm thinking a sample alternate idea is:

 

Get the licence from Intellivision Productions and River West

Produce an FPGA board for a new console called The Visions Game System

2 cart slots or one with adapters.

It'll play all existing games.

Hdmi out only

Enhance the cores to also play the "Super" version of the consoles based on the specs of the theoretical successor.

Now you'll have a bunch of ready made content from homebrewers.

Instead of the modern versions of his games that failed on Kickstarter, now Keith can do smaller kickstarters and release true Intellivision games for this with enhanced graphics courtesy of the enhanced cores.

 

...for example

 

I'd gladly pay 200-300 for something like this...

The big stumbling block would be ATGames Flashback agreements and repoing the controllers. ATgames made great Inty controllers for the Flashback, but crappy ones for the Coleco and worst of all never made extra or replacement controllers available.

 

...just thinking out loud...

[kevtris]

kevtris, on 19 Sept 2015 - 9:12 PM, said:

I think you would be surprised by people's response to this when the RetroVGS fails materialize. Many people I know were interesting when the FPGA was part of the specs, with the core being loaded from the cart along with the game. That meant I could use my existing development process and produce new games that I could release on the Intellivision and ColecoVision with native carts and on the VGS. What interested me the most was the idea that the FPGA could be enhanced to be a ColecoVision 2 that would include the Super Game Module, eliminate the 4 sprite per line issue, add more RAM add more sprites etc. Thereby enforcing the retro feel, but eliminating the little deficiencies.

 

Or an Intellivision III as described on the Intellivision Lives site that had more RAM, used the STIC to its full abilities so it could use single line cards, add more MOBs etc.

 

I would have thought that a licensed core would have been an easy thing to get from Intellivision Productions or River West (ColecoVision) for the VGS, now I'm thinking a sample alternate idea is:

 

Get the licence from Intellivision Productions and River West

Produce an FPGA board for a new console called The Visions Game System

2 cart slots or one with adapters.

It'll play all existing games.

Hdmi out only

Enhance the cores to also play the "Super" version of the consoles based on the specs of the theoretical successor.

Now you'll have a bunch of ready made content from homebrewers.

Instead of the modern versions of his games that failed on Kickstarter, now Keith can do smaller kickstarters and release true Intellivision games for this with enhanced graphics courtesy of the enhanced cores.

 

...for example

 

I'd gladly pay 200-300 for something like this...

The big stumbling block would be ATGames Flashback agreements and repoing the controllers. ATgames made great Inty controllers for the Flashback, but crappy ones for the Coleco and worst of all never made extra or replacement controllers available.

 

...just thinking out loud...

 

Fortunately, the INTV and Colecovision are so old now that there's no license required. The rights holders don't own the rights to anything except the copyright on the ROMs themselves, and the imagery in them such as sprites/motifs/look and feel and other similar things. I doubt either company so much as even has a schematic any more for the system main board let alone anything more substantial hardware wise. This is good though since it leaves everything wide open for anyone to swoop in with their own "compatible" designs.

 

I suspect everything up to PS1 level is free game. The only possible protection is patents, and those are good for a maximum of 18 years (20 now from date of filing). Since the SNES and Genesis are older than this (damn I feel old), it means these are free game too. The N64 would be about the top end of this limit when it comes to patent protection, Anything newer might still be under patent protection.

 

Removing some of the original hardware constraints like sprite limits is doable and can help a bit I think. Bunnyboy's FPGA NES he is going to release can show extra sprites per scanline for example. On that HDMI Adapter I did for NES, I added some extra things for homebrewers to use- the programmer can turn on and off all the expansion hardware from the NES side, so if you want the FM synth of VRC7, you can turn it on. Or VRC6, N163, etc. I hope people use this feature on their homebrew titles for better sound.

[Mux]

Kevin's point about chasing rainbows is a valid one. Friend of mine a long time ago did an atari 2600 core and kept adding stuff to it until eventually Jax Pacific released their 2600 clone. He was all pissed off about it but they just hunkered down and built it while he was going down the road of LVDS and God knows what else. At least Ouya didn't make that mistake. Btw, so wait... They're not adding an FPGA for $1.9m in dev cost but only for the 'higher tier'? One might expensive FPGA that is...

 

-Mux

[Mux]

I suspect everything up to PS1 level is free game. The only possible protection is patents, and those are good for a maximum of 18 years (20 now from date of filing). Since the SNES and Genesis are older than this (damn I feel old), it means these are free game too. The N64 would be about the top end of this limit when it comes to patent protection, Anything newer might still be under patent protection.

Nintendo will *NEVER* release their IP, ever. They're incredibly protective and while they tolerate emulators and what not, anyone who's trying to make a buck of their older technology will get a cease and desist letter.

 

-Mux

[phoenixdownita]

I wish you the best on the project,

.......

I will give you a few design protips too to maximize your chances of success:

....

 

Don't worry, I have no plans to release any kind of FPGA videogame system at the moment. I still am not sure that people would float the costs.

Please oh please, contact the RPi guys and make your board a HAT for that system (go KS if you need funding, I'm in). There will be droves of people attracted by the combo.

The base CPU/GPU of the RPi2 is enough to drive a decent FPGA, depending on how/what you can tap from the GPIO and how you can buffer the communications between the VideoCoreIV GPU and your FPGAs it could still allow for a hell of a hybrid system AND it will open up cheap FPGA dev to the masses (using the RPi has the host dev and controller if nothing else).

I can see a set of FPGA HATs, from cheaper (for 8bits system) to more powerful (for more beefy cores).

Edited September 20, 2015 by phoenixdownita

[phoenixdownita]

They have deleted their announcement in facebook for super noahs ark 3D and obviously not included it on the indiegogo. They havent notified me in writing but I take it as a strong sing we are out of this.

SNA3D is still linked on their Games page:

http://www.retrovgs.com/games.html

 

 

On the glide path:

 

13h for 53K -> 490h to go to hit the goal at this rate -> 20 days

Edited September 20, 2015 by phoenixdownita

[+Tarzilla]

 

Fortunately, the INTV and Colecovision are so old now that there's no license required. The rights holders don't own the rights to anything except the copyright on the ROMs themselves, and the imagery in them such as sprites/motifs/look and feel and other similar things. I doubt either company so much as even has a schematic any more for the system main board let alone anything more substantial hardware wise. This is good though since it leaves everything wide open for anyone to swoop in with their own "compatible" designs.

 

I get that you don't need to get a licence for 20 year old consoles, and maybe it isn't the term I'm looking for. I would expect the participation (even if just using the official brand names like Intellivision/ColecoVision/Genesis) would certainly lend a lot of credibility to a FPGA console that has a narrower focus...and make it easier to KickStart and for a lower buy in cost to backers. I wouldn't even bother with Nintendo, but I would think Sega would at least be open to discussion, based on all the ATGames stuff from the last couple of years.

 

An "official" Intellivision III branding would get more traction than "<Insert-cool-name> Retro Console"