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The Jaguar version of Rayman Conspiracy


Lost Dragon

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The answers i've recieved over the months of speaking to industry people are simply that Atari themselves under-funded projects or publishers allocated such small teams to do Jaguar conversions as Jaguar simply not seen as 'The Format' to back, due to it's struggle to get established in the market place, but then you hear same for CD-i, 32X, hell even Saturn projects.

 

That does'nt mean any of these formats sucked, it's just an honest look back at how they fared in the history of events.

 

No-ones even suggested company X would rather Game Y was delayed etc.

 

 

Sometimes i have to drag info kicking and screaming out of coders memory as it's been 20+ years and understandable things get confused-Just had 1 guy swear blind Atari brought round it's Uber ST Console to publisher he worked for, thought great, new Panther source, sadly after few email exchanges chap realised it was actually the Falcon Atari UK were showing.

 

Fleeting visit left an impression, but not 1 he initally recalled with clarity.

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Back on topic.

 

From: Retro Gamer Load 90, 'The Making Of:Rayman':

 

Michel Ancel talks of:

 

Not doing Rayman on:

 

The Atari ST, as interest in that format was starting to wane.

 

The SNES, as he thought it'd struggle with the huge amount of data he wanted to put into the game.

 

So it was decided to move it to the SNES CD, this was scrapped, so he moved it to the Jaguar, as he felt it was the best console (at that time) capable of displaying the graphics he/the team wanted to do.

 

He also said:

 

Playstation was more powerful than Jaguar, easier to code for and the CD capacity was ideal for storing games giant textures..

 

And that game took far longer than planned (2 years) as the constant change of hardware, from 1 console to another, proved to be by far the biggest technical issue the team faced.

 

So there's your reason for delay, by very person who created the game itself.

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So there's your reason for delay, by very person who created the game itself.

...or was he the mastermind behind the entire conspiracy and this is what he wants us to believe? Who better to head a conspiracy than the very person responsible for the game? The plot thickens!!

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I was on the sidelines, watching when Rayman released on the Jag and PS1 (still debating on if I wanted a saturn or to wait for the N64)... saying the hype was huge for this title is big stretch. Possibly for current Jag owners really wanting a great game...

 

The screenshots looked impressive but it wasn't moving many systems regardless of "timed exclusivity" IMO. Fun game but it wasn't saving our Jaguar alone!

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@Jagosaurus.What you've just posted is so very, very true.

 

I'm sure i've mentioned it before but in UK Press, Rayman simply did'nt fare as if it was the second coming....C+VG's review basically said if your a Jaguar owner, get it, if your a PS1 or Saturn owner however....

 

Playstation Plus: 2 reviewers, overal 59% Reviewer Matt thought it a frustrating waste of time and it was, without a doubt a right old piece of poo.Reviewer Rob found it to be just another platform game at best and at worst, bloody annoying!.

 

I know it went onto sell fantastically well on the PS1, but it certainly was not riding high on the back of any hype that i saw.

 

Something like Heart Of Darkness, now that was being hyped, front page of magazines, lots of multi-page previews etc etc.

 

Rayman i never saw treated any different to say 3DO GEX..as it was just another smashing looking platformer.

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:-) Much as i'm loathe to bring multi-sourced 'evidence' to what's so far had some great speculation brought to the table, again i'm going to ask..Rayman:What hype?

From Edge's preview:
'It's undoubtedly pretty, but will the Jaguars flagship platformer send Mario running for cover?. Edge is'nt so sure.'
Preview ended with:
'With the game obviousily aimed at a young auidance, crunch time for Rayman is Christmas, when it will be up again'st Nintendo's Donkey Kong Country.It could be tough going for the Jaguar'
Source Edge Oct'94.
So again, no hype, questions raised over how a fglagship Jaguar game would compete again'st a SNES title and yet people honestly think Sony saw Jaguar as a threat to PSone? and wanted to delay Rayman...?
I'm just not seeing where such concepts gained any foothold, from a UK perspective at least....
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While it's true that some people simply want to believe that the Jaguar was undermined every step of the way by external forces no matter the evidence, I'll just leave this one last thought out there... Playing along, and assuming that Sony indeed meddled in a potentially "early" Jaguar release of Rayman because of whatever "threat" or "interest" that might have posed to them, why didn't Sony ALSO meddle in any notable upcoming Nintendo, Sega, or even 3DO titles, whose platforms were outselling the Jaguar in some cases by incredible amounts?

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It's not about Tomb Raider. It's not about Quake. It's not about Rayman.

 

It's about people who, against every proof of the contrary, still believe that the Jaguar was a magic artifact. That it didn't suceed only because the other manufacturers, the game developers, the gaming press and UFOs from outer space all conspired to make it fail. People who took the Tramiel's claims ("good products don't need any advertising", "it can push 850 millions pixels per second", "it's only slightly less powerful than Sony's Playstation", etc.) at face value, and still believe them today.

 

There's no point in trying to convince them. If twenty years later, they still act like 13-year old rabid fanboys, there's nothing you can do.

 

I don't know who this is directed at, but I'd like to say a few things to some of you, like ZeroSquare, Madman, and Bill, who seem to allude that certain people (I sure get the feeling like I'm one of them) are essentially delusional or cannot be convinced that the Jaguar was not a magical machine and Sam Tramiel was not the saintly Steve Jobs of video games who was undermined by a conspiracy of everyone from Trip Hawkins' dentist to Electronics Boutique.

 

I don't believe the Jaguar was a "magic artifact." Nope. I don't. I couldn't even chime in on the "Top 10 Jaguar Games" post because I don't have a Top 10. Maybe a Top 6. I like Atari and I'd say my favorite Atari console is the Lynx. I'm fascinated by the business of the Atari Corp days. I owned and supported the Jaguar and I wanted it to at least live on back in the mid 90s.

 

I do not believe that the Jaguar didn't succeed only because external forces conspired to make it fail. I believe Atari did a pretty good job of screwing up the Jaguar on their own. They didn't need any help.

 

However, I do not believe that looking at the actions of other companies in the market is a "conspiracy" -- the things that businesses do to and with each other in the realm of strategy are not "conspiracy." Just because something is not divulged in a press release does not make it a "conspiracy." It's a hypothetical business discussion, and I truly figured, "What better place to have that discussion than with people who were there, or who actually know about it and care?" I could have this discussion in a classroom somewhere, but I'd be getting the opinions of a number of self-important people who are ignorant on the topic and don't know nearly as much as the average member of this forum.

 

I will take credit for inserting the thought that there was some deal for exclusivity between Atari and Ubisoft. That was based on Klove's memory of Bill Rehbock saying that Atari had received a big payment from Sony. To me, if that were true, it would mean there was likely some kind of deal for exclusivity that Atari was enticed to give up. I've beaten that point to death, but I do take credit for it and I hereby acknowledge I have no proof of it and was merely playing that "What If" scenario out, in what I thought was a place to do that.

 

My participation in this thread, and others like these on this forum, is that I have been looking at this possible scenario like I would a business case study. I've always enjoyed them, and as an Atari fan, (oh crap, does that make me a "fanboy" for admitting that, or do I need to have a wild cat as my avatar to qualify, Zerosquare?) I thought this (AtariAge) might be a good place to have a discussion like that.

 

Based on so much that I've read here, I guess I was wrong. My f*cking mistake. Sorry. I didn't realize a thread, which I did not start, entitled "The Jaguar version of the Rayman Conspiracy," on a Forum on a website named AtariAge, was a bad place to go about speculating and analyzing the "What If's" of the situation. Was I wrong to assume this is a place to talk about these things?

 

What a warm welcome.

Edited by KappaGuy99
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Debates should never be considered personal unless someone makes the poor choice of making a personal attack. Speculation and what ifs? are fine, but if you engage in it, you have to be prepared for counterpoints and questioning of the idea(s) and vice-versa.

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Well as thread creator, plus he who quoted Rayman Creator, along with Team 17 to give idea of how Sony were'nt all that fussed about 2D, then Rayman Creator and Ubisoft PR guy, both explaining reasons for delay to Jaguar version....

 

And...Sony and Atari UK's perspectives of how 1 viewed the other, i found myself suddenly in the Jaguar Sux Brigade, which did make me chuckle somewhat having invested a lot of time and money into the Jaguar itself along with software, everything i bought Jaguar related was day 1 purchases.

 

For the record: I personally welcome ALL input from fellow AA posters on this matter, KappaGuy99 i've very much enjoyed reading your posts.

 

I have found from personal exp.thought that even when you get info direct from the source:Be it John Romero, Mike Diskett, Darryl Still or find and quote from interviews others did (John Carmack etc) there's always going to be someone who does'nt believe person said that or it does'nt prove anything.

 

All you can do is put the info out there.

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@KappaGuy99

:-) I would'nt be concerned about the Jaguar Top 10 thread.I posted, but could'nt muster 10 games myself.
Had i bought things like Iron Solider 2 or Skyhammer on cart.or invested in a Jag CD i probably could of, but i did'nt so could only pass judgement on what i had purchased and why certain titles, IMO, did'nt deserve to go in.
Had so many Jaguar projects of been completed, who knows? we might have had a Top 25 Jag games thread?.
I'm honestly not that concerned how my Lost Jaguar games research is viewed.
All the views expressed are those of the coders or PR people themselves, not mine.Nothing altered to suit any particular bias by myself.
If nothing else i found out just how far along attempts at converting things like Creature shock/Magic Carpet to Jag CD really got, truth behind Tomb Raider screens, could have shed light on Freelancer screens.Know who coded Jag CD Soul Star, what really happened with Jaguar Conan etc etc.
Was either look into them or go blindly on UK Press claims...
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I don't believe there's a conspiracy. Jag was a stop-gap mid-generation console, a "4.5" if you will. It fell flat on it's face because it was premature. So did it's contemporaries, the CDi and 3DO. Neo-Geo, also part of the "4.5" gen, only saw success because it's arcade based hardware gave it a cool reputation among rich kids. That Raymond got delayed on the Jag is not due to underhanded dealings. It released on three consoles and the Jag version by far was the worst selling. Do not think the publishers or Atari failed to see the writing on the wall. Jag was dying a slow death to the PS and Saturn.

 

The pre-crash consoles like 5200, Coleco, and Vectrex, albeit awesome in their own right, faced a similar predicament as Gen "2.5". Or the Nokia N-Gage, as a Gen 6.5 handheld. Possibly Ouya and the rest of the Android based micro consoles will face a similar fate.

Edited by stardust4ever
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I guess to many developers/publishers, the Jaguar seemed like an odd 'patch-together' of different technologies: Risc Chips, a 68000, Blitter, etc plus it wanted to offer both Cart and CD technology...Psygnosis for example mentioned the confusion (it being either an over-priced cart machine or under-specced CD machine).

 

Atari had already pulled the rug from under 1 'Super Console' (The Panther) so bound to be questions asked about just how serious Atari were with Jaguar....

 

I guess the decisions made about what degree of support to give any platform are based on a perception of how it's going to be doiung in the market place in some 18 months+ time, but this in turn will effect how it'll do, as if consumer does'nt see a lot of 3rd party support, key exclusives planned or in development, they are less likely to buy the platform.

 

But this chicken and egg situation has been part n parcel of the industry long before and long after the Jaguar arrived.

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Neo-Geo, also part of the "4.5" gen, only saw success because it's arcade based hardware gave it a cool reputation among rich kids.

The Neo Geo's success had absolutely nothing to do with rich kids having one at home. Even today, the Neo Geo is still a popular platform for gamers. Metal Slug isn't an awesome game because rich kids thought the system was cool.

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I guess to many developers/publishers, the Jaguar seemed like an odd 'patch-together' of different technologies: Risc Chips, a 68000, Blitter, etc plus it wanted to offer both Cart and CD technology...Psygnosis for example mentioned the confusion (it being either an over-priced cart machine or under-specced CD machine).

 

This is an interesting take on the Jaguar that puts it in the context of the mass-market consumer entertainment industry.

 

There has been a lot of money spent since 1993 on trying to find a new entry into the living room. The television was a revolution. The VCR was a revolution. But the DVD was just an evolution. TiVo and OnDemand are interesting candidates but the holy grail has always been a new general-purpose box.

 

If you look at it from the Tramiel's early-90s perspective, I think they were dead serious about the "Interactive Multimedia" aspect of the Jaguar. Commodore's C64 success was based on a couple of low-cost but powerful chips and a cheap base-price that locks you into a system that you can expand. The Jaguar was similar: a CD add on + MPEG Cart, a modem, an oft-touted Time-Warner stake in Atari Corp (Sam mentioned their cable network on more than one occasion), and a chip set with a broad number of features and no particular emphasis (like 3D).

 

But the differences were more important:

  • With both the C64 and the ST, the first feature touted out of the gate was the amount of memory you could get for the price. A no brainer, clear as day, bang-for-the-buck. A lot of companies don't understand this. It was why Jack Tramiel was so successful. But 64K of memory for the $595 Commodore 64 and $1000/1MB 1040ST is only good for so long. The C64 lasted because VIC & SID chips. The ST lasted because of DTP, and more importantly, MIDI. In both cases, the value of the hardware and its purpose are self-evident.
  • What does the 64-Bit Interactive Multimedia System offer to the living room?
    • 64-bit? Why does my living room need 64-bit?
    • "Interactive Multimedia"? What sort of killer experiences are you offering?
      • Games? I already have a SNES and you're showing me 68000 Genesis ports?
      • Multimedia? Great peripherals, but you still haven't sold the game system.

The Jaguar was trying to be everything and became nothing. Even before it was irrelevant, it was confusing developers with both its mission and its design. This is actually a very tempting and easy mistake to make.

 

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re: asking why your living room needs 64-bits... look at set top boxes ever since the advent of DirectTV and Dish Network. Cable boxes... hell, even todays Blu-ray Players and streamers ALL need faster and faster computers built in to handle the bloat and inefficiency that is the modern UI. And then there's eBay, Amazon, Hulu, YouTube - ugh. ALL crap experiences anymore that beg and beg for faster equipment with each and every worthless and unnecessary update.

 

So yes, we need 64+ friggin' bits today. And then some! :rolling:

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So yes, we need 64+ friggin' bits today. And then some! :rolling:

Again, bits are meaningless, and to a lesser extent clock speed. Aside from applications which require more than 2-4Gb RAM and big num arithmatic, primarily used in cryptography and my personal favorite, deep zoom fractal calculations, the majority of software still runs 32-bit, even on a 64-bit OS.

 

Bits became meaningless in the mid 90's when the graphical capabilities such as 3d polygonal shading and overall throughput became more important than how many bits the CPU logic supported. The Turbo Grafx and Atari 2600 had basically the same CPU architecture but the Turbo/PCe clearly could run with the best of the 16-bit era. 32 bits are plenty for almost any 90s era system, and most modern ones...

 

Companies outright lying about the number of bits didn't help much. A 16 bit and a 32 bit coprocessor somehow add up to 64? Sonebody did not pass their grammar school arithmatic. My friend and I used to joke that "bits" doubled each gen, skipping over 32. Pong was one-bit, Atari VCS was 4, NES-SNES-N64 were 8-16-64 and the Game Cube was somehow 128. LOL, so naive was I back then... :P

Edited by stardust4ever
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@Schmudde :Ian Hetherington (Pysgnosis) went onto say:

 

'If you are going to launch a CD machine, you must be committed to the format and make it CD-Based from day one.If Atari wanted to launch a cartridge machine, then they should have looked at a price point of £75.If they wanted to launch a CD machine then £250-£300 is fine, but it would have to offer a lot more than this'.

 

 

He said Psygnosis had a Jaguar machine for about 12 months and were not massively impressed, not impressed at all and:

 

'If you compare the Jaguar to virtually any of the other emerging formats, then i think it comes off second best'.

 

So to certain key developers in the UK at least the Jaguar did seem somewhat oddly placed, trying to place itself between beating existing hardware (SNES/MD etc) and being perhaps over powered and thus over-priced and also being able to compete again'st emerging formats where it found itself somewhat lacking as hardware was'nt designed to compete on a level playing field as it'd been eclipsed.

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Daryl Still: 'The Playstation is very strong, certainly in comparison with the Saturn, but Sony has absolutely no experience in this market and the games market really is like no other.You can't just come in and buy market share.You have to build it'

 

2)How Sony viewed Atari entering the market with the Jaguar:

 

I was at the ECTS show when Sony had their stand launching the PS1 next door to Atari's. I was helping Daryl out by demoing Mutant Penguins at the show so spent 3 days next to the Sony stand. It was immediately clear to me Atari were stuffed. They had a stand with a few average looking 2D games and a few rough looking 3D ones and Sony rolled out Wipeout. Which it was.

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@Schmudde :Ian Hetherington (Pysgnosis) went onto say:

 

He said Psygnosis had a Jaguar machine for about 12 months and were not massively impressed, not impressed at all and:

 

 

I actually interviewed at Psygnosis after Slam Racer didn't happen, and they said they didn't have and had never had any Jaguar hardware.....

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Oh dear, reading the first post in the thread only... what's the deal with fans of Systems who failed to be as successful as their competition to always make conspiracy theories? Sometimes market realities like brand Name, Distribution and Price Play a role. Often, it is Marketing or plain simple the games available.

 

Rayman was very lucky to be one of the top selling PS1 games thanks to ist early release; had it come out later I think it would have made much less of an Impact. However, never would sony (and/or Sega) have conspired or paid Ubisoft Money in order to Keep a freakin' 2D jump'n run from appearing on the stillborn Jaguar. They couldn't have cared less. The Jaguar was meaningless to them in the grand picture, sad as it may be for the fans. If anyone paid to Keep games from coming to a System, it would have been spectacular 3D stuff for more competetive systems.

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:-) Starting to wonder if UK Press did'nt simply make stuff up as they went along.So the claim Psygnosis had a Jaguar for over 12 months to evaluate looks to have joined the following B.S Atari related UK Press claims.

 

Bob Armour converting Gauntlet to 7800, Gremlin converting Technocop to 7800, John Croudy converting Druid II to A8, Polar Pierre seen running, 7800 Turrican would be seen running, Tomb Raider screens were from Jaguar CD version of the game, Thallion handling ST Nebulus 2, a Jaguar CD Drive blew up, Tramiel also present at same event, ST Myth was released, Defender Of The Crown was released on ST before Amiga, Jeff Minter doing Lynx Star Raiders, Thallion planned Jaguar games, Rebellions claimed Jag CD plans, Jaguar Quake 40% complete..etc etc etc.

 

To think i used to subscribe to so many mags and trusted what i read....no wonder i started interviews off my own back.

Edited by Lost Dragon
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Just emailed Ian Hetherington, regarding what he was 'quoted as saying' by UK Press.Doubt very much i'll get a reply or if i do, that he'll remember much about it (being over 20+ years ago), but it'd be great to find out if this was a simple miss-quote or missunderstanding (these things happen, enough corrections to last months article...type things popped up over the years)....OR:

 

It's as simple as yet another case of a Freelancer for or main staffer themselves, simply making claims up, which until now have pretty much gone unchallenged.

 

:-) Never mind the Rayman Conspiracy, i'd love to know why UK Press made so much up about Atari formats from A8/ST to Jaguar and passed it off as 'fact' and sometimes still do....

 

Often wondered if it was a case of them knowing they'd get so few complaints that a story or item was incorrect (or a dirty fib) they were happy to run a story or article and be damned.

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Rayman was very lucky to be one of the top selling PS1 games thanks to ist early release; had it come out later I think it would have made much less of an Impact.

 

 

Well that's not helping the argument that a 2D game of Raymans magnitude wouldn't have helped the Jaguar had it come out a year earlier. Or that it didn't matter to Sony.

 

Just sayin'.

Edited by JagChris
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