Feelies and other Stuff?

[First Spear]

Here is a question outside of the regular hardcore coding issues on this subforum:

 

What is your point-of-view on having "feelies" ( en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feelie ) go along with an Intellivision game? I was thinking it might be interesting to copy protect a game with something off-cartridge that would be required to play. It might even add flavor to a CIB release. Even though there is a risk that folks might just "patch out" the part that requires the feelies (eg code wheel) and post a ROM on a site, do you have an opinion on how something might be done that fits in the Intellivision platform constraints?[

 

Just some Sunday theory, what are some things you think you think?

Edited March 15, 2015 by First Spear

[+DZ-Jay]

Half your comment is mis-formatted as part of the hyperlink...

[freewheel]

Well, I know Rev prints up patches and pens and all sorts of other things - so some people must like them.

[intvnut]

Half your comment is mis-formatted as part of the hyperlink...

 

That's AA's awesomeness there, considering space characters and other nonsense to be valid URL characters. It's bitten me several times too.

[freewheel]

 

I was thinking it might be interesting to copy protect a game with something off-cartridge that would be required to play. It might even add flavor to a CIB release. Even though there is a risk that folks might just "patch out" the part that requires the feelies (eg code wheel) and post a ROM on a site, do you have an opinion on how something might be done that fits in the Intellivision platform constraints?[

 

As a gamer of many decades: using these things as copy protection is, to put it bluntly, absolutely fucking obnoxious. Now I have to sit and play around with a bloody physical artifact every single time I wanna play the game for 5 minutes - and worse, what if I lose it? The game is now literally WORTHLESS. Nothing drove me nuts more than these stupid things, which as you say, can just be patched out anyway.

 

Never mind the fact that in this day and age, it's insanely trivial to reproduce damned near anything you want. In the 80s, when we didn't all have colour photocopiers and such, it made more sense. Today, I can scan anything physical you produce. A code wheel? I can pump out a script to replicate the functionality in about 15 minutes.

 

But as an actual value-add? Sure, they're cool. Like I said, Rev at least has patches and pens and stuff. DZ has created all sorts of swag (not sure what was included with a CIB, but it's the same concept). People eat this sorta stuff up.

 

I'm still a bit mystified as to why some in this community think that ROM piracy is a make-or-break issue, but that's just me. I just don't see how changing 100 sales into 120 suddenly makes this a career. Plus I just can't stand the attitude of treating your paying customers as criminals out of the gate. But that's a whole other discussion thread... suffice it to say that I have less than zero interest in purchasing something that is deliberately crippled on the premise that I am dishonest.

 

Strong opinion on the issue? Never!

[intvnut]

Personally, I would never dream of including additional tchotchkes unless I thought they added something to the experience. That is, anything extra that gets included is exactly that: Extra, because it's cool.

 

But what about artifacts such as maps, etc.? If you design your game such that it isn't really playable without an accompanying map, let's say, then a printed copy with a CIB version seems like a must. If you distribute the game in ROM form or cart-only form, it seems like you should also include a PDF or other downloadable format as well.

 

There are plenty of games that benefit from a map, but are perfectly playable without. (Legend of Zelda on NES is an example.) There, providing a printed map is just an extra, and extras are cool.

[freewheel]

Absolutely agreed. And it's funny that you use this as an example given what I'm currently mucking about with

[carlsson]

I can imagine some timed turn based game where instead of a timer displayed on screen, you get a hour glass with the game. The game puts a message on screen to turn the hour glass and start taking your turn. Indeed you can use a timer to determine how long each turn is, and use some other form of off-line timer in order to not miss to finish your turn within time, but you'd need either the original hour glass, a stop watch or being very good at keeping track of time in order to not run out of time before each turn is completed.

 

I can imagine completely different "feelies" too, but as I imagine this is a family friendly forum, I won't go into detail what I'm having in mind.

[awhite2600]

Including feelies or bonus items is a great idea if they add some value to the package. We included a DVD with the limited edition boxed version of Extra Terrestrials. The DVD contained clips of the media coverage about the discovery of the game. A cart only release is still available from Good Deal Games. The ROM was also released for free after the boxed version sold out.

 

I agree with the others that have stated that copy protection is both a waste of time and an annoyance. A determined individual can almost always crack the protection. (It was sort of a hobby for me back in the day.) Almost any protection scheme will do nothing more than piss off your legitimate purchasers.

[carlsson]

It was said that in the 1980's, Infocom's text adventures very rarely were copied and distributed illegally. Not because they were harder to crack than any other game, but because the games came with so many extra items - maps and objects that added value or made the game possible to play. Pure copy protection mechanisms probably could have been circumvented, but the games became less playable without the items.

 

For that matter, I came across plenty of pirate games for the C64 in the time period 1985 - 1992, but not a single time there was an Infocom game among the ones that crossed my way. Whether this helped Infocom sell more games, or their games became less spread and recognized other than on hear tale what they were about, it is hard to tell but from what I've heard and read these are among the best known examples of what adding extra items can do.

[+DZ-Jay]

It was said that in the 1980's, Infocom's text adventures very rarely were copied and distributed illegally. Not because they were harder to crack than any other game, but because the games came with so many extra items - maps and objects that added value or made the game possible to play. Pure copy protection mechanisms probably could have been circumvented, but the games became less playable without the items.

 

For that matter, I came across plenty of pirate games for the C64 in the time period 1985 - 1992, but not a single time there was an Infocom game among the ones that crossed my way. Whether this helped Infocom sell more games, or their games became less spread and recognized other than on hear tale what they were about, it is hard to tell but from what I've heard and read these are among the best known examples of what adding extra items can do.

 

Strange. Infocom text adventures for the C=64 were some of the best games I played from my BBS warez collection, back in the day.

 

-dZ.

[freewheel]

It was said that in the 1980's, Infocom's text adventures very rarely were copied and distributed illegally. Not because they were harder to crack than any other game, but because the games came with so many extra items - maps and objects that added value or made the game possible to play. Pure copy protection mechanisms probably could have been circumvented, but the games became less playable without the items.

 

People who say that, with all due respect, are full of bovine feces. And/or are pushing an agenda to try to "prove" how copy protection schemes "work".

 

Infocom games got copied and shared just as much as any others. I'd argue moreso because they were so damned popular (and good!). HHGTG was a game that seemingly every C64 owner had. Phobos would have been right up there, too. Never mind that the original Zork games were basically sector 1 on any disk you came across.

 

The only games that didn't see widespread copying in the 80s were terrible games that no one wanted to play. The Infocom games are excellent proof that making a good game leads to good sales, and that piracy is just a tag-on effect. Shitty games don't get pirated, and they don't sell. Good games see both. REALLY good games see a LOT of both.

 

Disclaimer: it's entirely possible that you had a different experience over in Europe. I can only speak to what circulated in Canada, given that this was very much the days of sneakernet only, at least for most of us.

 

[+DZ-Jay]

 

People who say that, with all due respect, are full of bovine feces. And/or are pushing an agenda to try to "prove" how copy protection schemes "work".

 

Infocom games got copied and shared just as much as any others. I'd argue moreso because they were so damned popular (and good!). HHGTG was a game that seemingly every C64 owner had. Phobos would have been right up there, too. Never mind that the original Zork games were basically sector 1 on any disk you came across.

 

The only games that didn't see widespread copying in the 80s were terrible games that no one wanted to play. The Infocom games are excellent proof that making a good game leads to good sales, and that piracy is just a tag-on effect. Shitty games don't get pirated, and they don't sell. Good games see both. REALLY good games see a LOT of both.

 

Disclaimer: it's entirely possible that you had a different experience over in Europe. I can only speak to what circulated in Canada, given that this was very much the days of sneakernet only, at least for most of us.

 

 

It was the same way in the US. Infocom games were available from any BBS to which you cared to connect, and we passed them around at school in floppies, just like any other cool game.

 

Nobody I knew were aware of the "feelies" in those games, and nobody I knew cared. They all played the games, and they still copied them around.

 

-dZ.

[carlsson]

Hm, perhaps you're right that Europeans pay more attention to feelies than Americans do.

[+DZ-Jay]

Hm, perhaps you're right that Europeans pay more attention to feelies than Americans do.

 

I don't think it's a matter of "paying attention"; I'm sure Americans enjoy feelies as much as Europeans do. I know I like them, as a matter of adding to the immersion.

 

I think our objections are against them being counted as a successful anti-piracy measure, and promoted as such. Personally, I believe that is disingenuous.

 

I know that Sierra On-Line tried to do the same by including comic books and other paraphernalia with their games. The result is a lame and cumbersome tie-in with an external artifact, and still tons of pirated copies, most of which came with a post-it on the floppy with the key or pass code needed to bypass it.

 

dZ.

[+nanochess]

I always liked the little extras for games like stickers, and I always disliked the ones that looked like password books specially if these didn't have any game-related function.

 

At this date I still have fond memories of my Delta Force: Land Warrior for PC, that came with a precut cardboard to put over your keyboard to remind you of commands

 

I also like the small books, diaries and maps that give you clues about the game. And I like very much a well done poster (even if I don't have space in my wall!)

[pimpmaul69]

In america we get kind of screwed in the "feelie department." I have bought tons of import games and dvd's because they had so much more to offer with the game/dvd. Now day i am living with as minimal stuff as i can so it doesnt matter as much to me, but i still like collecting patches, overlays and game maps and stuff.

Edited March 20, 2015 by pimpmaul69

[Keatah]

The added paraphernalia was nice, sure, but it did nothing for copy protection. We'd dupe the code wheels, or transcribe the necessary books and maps and sheets. Or crack it properly and do away with it.

[freewheel]

When my small town got colour photocopying in the mid 80s, there were suddenly a lot more games I was willing to play. Bard's Tale is certainly playable without a map, but it's way more fun to have a nice color map next to you. You still had to map the dungeons out manually, however.

 

There will be some feelies coming with games in the near future. Nothing to do with copy protection, but just cool added stuff that makes it worth buying a physical copy in the first place. Consider it the carrot rather than the stick.

[+cmart604]

When my small town got colour photocopying in the mid 80s, there were suddenly a lot more games I was willing to play. Bard's Tale is certainly playable without a map, but it's way more fun to have a nice color map next to you. You still had to map the dungeons out manually, however.

 

There will be some feelies coming with games in the near future. Nothing to do with copy protection, but just cool added stuff that makes it worth buying a physical copy in the first place. Consider it the carrot rather than the stick.

Cool. I'm excited at the somewhat cryptic comments I've seen you make about your upcoming game.

[+Tarzilla]

Cool. I'm excited at the somewhat cryptic comments I've seen you make about your upcoming game.

Let's hope it isn't a limited edition goat turd...:-)

[pimpmaul69]

Let's hope it isn't a limited edition goat turd...:-)

a nom nom patch with a bite taken out of it.

[intvnut]

Today's Dilbert was funny in the context of this thread...

 

 

(At least, I got a chuckle.)

Edited March 21, 2015 by intvnut

[First Spear]

If I ever release a game, I am absolutely going to jam it in 77 tons of packaging. Then I will get you to sign one at random. Guys on AA love package variants.

[intvnut]

If I ever release a game, I am absolutely going to jam it in 77 tons of packaging. Then I will get you to sign one at random. Guys on AA love package variants.

 

Fun fact: Before I had my own Sears Tele-Games unit, I borrowed William Moeller's to do some testing. When I shipped it back to him, I double-boxed it. The inner box was already a pretty big box, with the unit all bubble wrapped as I recall, and the outer box was positively huge cube, and filled with packing peanuts. I think I may have added some reinforcing cardboard too; I don't recall. It was super-over-packaged.

 

The whole package was so hilariously overdone that Canadian Customs sat on it for something like 6 or 8 weeks. I guess they figured that with such a huge box, I must be up to something.