Why I got back into collecting ColecoVision...

[Kiwi]

You can set your TV to change it from Fit, Stretched, Zoomed, and other options. See something 4:3 ratio, or don't use Fit, Stretch for HDMI. I think the current TV setting is set to Auto. Changing that may change the picture size.

I think with the F18A mod, it should make Rockcutter flicker less since I have 4 or more sprites on a line a bit too often.

[TPR]

You can set your TV to change it from Fit, Stretched, Zoomed, and other options. See something 4:3 ratio, or don't use Fit, Stretch for HDMI. I think the current TV setting is set to Auto. Changing that may change the picture size.

 

So I went back to my TV tonight to look at the options, because you're right I had totally forgotten about all the different settings, and interestingly enough, under HDMI I didn't have an option for 4:3 aspect ratio. I had "normal", "zoom", and "stretch", then of course comparing that to the native RGB mode. So I took some screen shots to compare. I'd love to get other people's feedback on this because I'm really on the fence about what I think looks better. Take a look:

 

Here's Pac-Man Collection side by side with all the different options. For my HDMI pics, the VGA cable is coming out of the F18A mod into an HDMI converter (see previous page for brand and type) and then into my HDTV.

 

Left to right is: HDMI normal. HDMI stretched. HDMI zoomed. Native RGB mode. (Right out of the CV and into the TV)

Clearly the zoomed and stretched versions look terrible, but I'm on the fence about the HDMI vs. RGB, especially with Juice's new HDMI mod, which I'm interested in, but I'm not sure about now... Here's a few other games we are more used to seeing:

 

HDMI on the left. RGB on the right. The HDMI version is with my TV's "normal" setting.

 

 

Take Donkey Kong for example. The left hand version is what we have been used to seeing since 1982. But could it be that we've just been looking at a stretched out, fatter version of the game this whole time when it's really meant to be a bit narrower? Same thing with Mr. Do. Here's another look at a brand new game:

 

 

While I like both of them, and the HDMI output is light years better than the RF or even an A/V mod, I think I'm starting to lean towards the look of the RGB mod, even though it doesn't fill up the entire screen. The TV I'm running in my office right now is a 22" Vizio M220VA. I'm planning to upgrade to a bigger screen towards the end of the year, and I notice that a lot of newer TV's don't even have an RGB input. Do newer screens allow for the HDMI settings to emulate the 4:3 aspect ratio?

 

Here's one more look comparing both the RGB & HDMI along with the AV mod:

 

HDMI on the left, AV in the middle, RGB on the right:

 

Clearly the AV version is losing the battle here, but as for the other two... What are your thoughts? The wider HDMI version or the narrower RGB? I really can't decide!

[NIAD]

I have to admit that I am really digging the RGB (F18A with VGA cable) output in the picture examples you provided.

[Kiwi]

I think it is normal to be widescreen like that. Old Television were more wider in the 1980s. NES too is similar. The Kirby painting animation on the NES is more rounder on widescreen than 4:3 pixel perfect.

[+Yurkie]

The F-18 is great if you have a VGA input on your display or TV, however when you convert to HDMI and try to output it to a LCD/LED TV your streching the picture from 4:3 to 16:9.

[TPR]

The F-18 is great if you have a VGA input on your display or TV, however when you convert to HDMI and try to output it to a LCD/LED TV your streching the picture from 4:3 to 16:9.

Is there any way to keep the original 4:3 aspect ratio? The more I look into newer TV's I notice they don't have a VGA input. And it looks like I might lose that option. Is there any way to convert to HDMI without having it stretch?

[chart45]

Is there any way to keep the original 4:3 aspect ratio? The more I look into newer TV's I notice they don't have a VGA input. And it looks like I might lose that option. Is there any way to convert to HDMI without having it stretch?

ok this is a vga to hdmi converter out of is box probably kind of thin juice use to out put rgb to hdmi

 

 

 

this can be fit in the coleco pretty easy and its 10$ on aliexpress if i remember right and i use a f18a board

 

if you put your tv in normal mod here what you see

 

mostly 4:3

 

 

here zoom

 

stretch

 

 

dot by dot

 

so if you put your tv in normal mode its pretty 4:3

 

but the major point and we never got a video of a bad flikering sprite game like bagman where the kart desapear and we all have seen the tpr video of the f18a the kart stay there all the time...will the yurkie rgb mod fix this problem cause i pretty sure its what juice use... + the converter to hdmi hope yes cause its pretty cool to have the hdmi port on the colecovision

 

sorry my english is bad but i think people understand

[TPR]

Interesting to see that your TV's "normal" mode basically keeps the original 4:3 ratio even after being converted to HDMI where mine still shows a stretched 16:9 ratio. I wonder if that is my TV doing that or the HDMI converter?

[chart45]

Interesting to see that your TV's "normal" mode basically keeps the original 4:3 ratio even after being converted to HDMI where mine still shows a stretched 16:9 ratio. I wonder if that is my TV doing that or the HDMI converter?

i found the exact same conveter on ebay

http://www.ebay.ca/ulk/itm/310638984846

 

but pretty sure i didnt pay that mutch

[SiLic0ne t0aD]

I'm pretty sure I remember Yurkie saying his RGB mod eliminated sprite flicker like the F18a. Juice said his doesn't so I'm not sure what to think. I wish I could see all 3 mods in 3 different CV's, running straight into a TV with minimal processing (without the converter box) to get a sense of what it truly looks like.. which would have best picture (including no sprite flicker) and cost wise. . I'm kind of torn toward all the different options but the f18a seems to be the favorite around here at the moment. No use in comparing composite anymore, it's kind of redundant considering HD is the latest and greatest thing for our CVs. I hope to upgrade all mine soon. :-)

[TPR]

I'm not a technical guy, but can someone explain how a mod that doesn't replace the VDP makes the sprite flicker go away? I thought the thing with the F18A was that it replaced the VDP with a better one so the restriction of having only so many sprites on one scan line was lifted and that's the reason why you don't see the sprite flicker with the F18A. Not that I'm doubting any other mods, it's just that I do want to get a couple other systems modded, and I want to make sure I'm making the correct, most educated decision before I pull that trigger.

 

I like that the F18A removes the sprite flicker and after having one now, I honestly couldn't imagine going back to any version of the CV where you see that in a game. I mean, Pac-Man Collection LOOKS like the arcade version now! It's just so impressive!

[NIAD]

I would assume that since the Juice and Yurkie RGB mods (they are one in the same IIRC that Juice was the developer of the mod) do not alter the original VDP used by the CV in any way, that the reason for the elimination of sprite flicker with this mod is due to how modern TVs refresh the screen or how the mod processes the video and outputs it to the TV.

 

For instance, if an old picture tube mysteriously had an RGB (or HDMI since Juice has announced that one) connection, you might still see the sprite flicker in CV games.

 

So not being technically savvy when it comes to this:

 

- the F18 is eliminating sprite flicker at the hardware level due to the new VDP used by this mod. This somehow even holds true for games like Pac-Man Collection where the programmer developed a flicker routine within his game code.

 

- the RGB (and HDMI now) mods are benefitting from the way modern TVs refresh/draw the screen to eliminate sprite flicker along with it having something to do with the way these mod boards process and output the video to the TV seeing as if it was solely up to the modern TV, we would see no sprite flicker with RF, Composite and Component video ColecoVisions.

 

Me thinks.

[Tursi]

I see the flicker question a lot, if you've forgive a rare contributor speaking up, maybe I can give enough details to make it make some sense.

 

The way that the 9928 (and 9918, and 9929, they're all the same up till the video out section) VDP works is that it can draw no more than 4 sprites on a single scanline. If there are more than 4, the first four are drawn and the rest are completely ignored.

 

So for instance, if your sprites are laid out like so:

 

Sprite 1 - @

Sprite 2 - #

Sprite 3 - $

Sprite 4 - %

Sprite 5 - &

 

@ # $ % &

 

The '&' will be completely invisible, since it is the lowest "priority" sprite on the line. It's never drawn by the VDP. Some games don't attempt to flicker, and so you'll see sprites simply disappear (fully or partially) in those cases.

 

Sprite "rotation" varies the order in which the sprites are drawn to the screen, to give all sprites a chance to be higher priority. There are as many ways to do this as there are programmers, so we won't delve into 'best' practices, but let's assume for the sake of argument that every other frame, we reverse the order of our sprites. So on even frames we draw the above order, and on odd frames we reverse it:

 

Sprite 1 - &

Sprite 2 - %

Sprite 3 - $

Sprite 4 - #

Sprite 5 - @

 

If we don't change anything else, just the ORDER, then the reversal won't be visible to the player. But it will have meaning to the system, because now the same setting onscreen:

 

@ # $ % &

 

... now has the '@' as the lowest priority sprite, so the '@' will be invisible and the '&' will be visible. Put in simple terms, with this rotation happening every frame, the '@' and the '&' will be flickering, but the '#', '$' and '%' will be SOLID, because they are drawn every frame either way.

 

This is how the F18A eliminates flicker in most cases -- because it can draw all 32 sprites on a scanline. Even though the software is reversing the sprite order, the sprites are all drawn every frame, and so remain solid. This is also why games that CAN produce flicker don't produce it on all sprites all the time -- it doesn't have to be clever about detecting flicker, sprites that aren't on a busy scanline won't be invisible on any frame.

 

The reason that the HDMI mods might reduce flicker plays into this (I haven't used them, but just based on simple theory). An NTSC ColecoVision updates the screen 60 times a second, displaying a progressive signal - it's a 262P @ 60Hz, if you will. However, /televisions/ ran a 525 line interlaced signal at 30Hz. The VDP (and many others back in the day) was a bit of a hack that happened to work with the television standard because televisions just did what they were told. This is the reason that some modern display devices have trouble with the composite video signal out of machines from the day - it's a little off-spec. (My old projector didn't like my Coleco, my TI, my 2600 or my Genesis).

 

HDMI converters put out a progressive digital signal. To do so, they sample two television frames, and "deinterlaces" them to produce a single 525 line, 30 Hz frame. (Then scales it, etc). There's usually some blending involved since even though a full frame was only displayed 30 times a second, most programs still generated 60 frames a second, relying on the glow of the phosphors for some natural blending. The net effect is if the game is flickering at 30hz (ie: every other frame as above), you will probably see a fairly stable image once it is deinterlaced, because the scanlines from the Coleco were meant to go on top of each other anyway.

 

However, some games may have a longer flicker cycle than every other frame. Mario Bros, for instance, needs four frames for the full cycle, so in extreme cases those games will still flicker on the adapter. Furthermore, there's no external fix for games that don't run a rotation algorithm at all - if the sprite disappears completely, it still does with the HDMI mod, guaranteed. Since sprites don't disappear on the F18A, that won't happen there.

 

There's a caveat to that, too. Some games (although I don't know if any on Coleco do) use sprite rotation to increase the number of available sprites via software. That is, instead of 32 sprites, they may decide they want to simulate 64 sprites by displaying a completely different sprite table every other frame. For instance, in the case of @ # $ % & above, they might have a second bank with * + = ~ ^, and display that instead of reversing the sprite order. In this case every frame you're guaranteed one full set is not being drawn, and all sprites flicker. (Although you could overlap the sets and have some that always flicker and some that never do). This trick will flicker on real hardware and on the F18A, although depending on exactly how it's done it may or may not flicker much on the HDMI upscaler. That said, this is a really rare trick, and a bit complicated to summarize so I'll just leave it there.

[TPR]

Furthermore, there's no external fix for games that don't run a rotation algorithm at all - if the sprite disappears completely, it still does with the HDMI mod, guaranteed. Since sprites don't disappear on the F18A, that won't happen there.

 

That was a wonderful post! Thank you Tursi! And this line right here answers a lot of questions I had. So for example, on Bagman, where if you hop in a cart, and you have the cart, two bags of money, the pick axe, and an enemy on all one scan line, where some of the sprites will disappear, that will still happen on an HDMI mod, but not using the F18A. Same thing if you have four enemies following you on Burgertime and the fourth one totally drops off the screen.

 

This is what I was wondering about. I guess both of them are great options over the standard RF or AV mods, but you just have to decide how much you want to pimp out the ColecoVision.

 

Thanks again for that insight!

[Tkat5200]

Today I got an awesome box in the mail from Collectorvision filled with all kinds of goodies, but first I'll focus on these amazing fan-made boxes that create "US Coleco" arcade game boxes for games that never had one. I love this!!! While I like the variety of boxes that are out there, I'll always have a soft spot for the arcade cabinet boxes since I grew up on these and most of the games I had as a kid were in this style. Take a look...

cv_boxes1.jpg

cv_boxes2.jpg

cv_boxes3.jpg

cv_boxes5.jpg

cv_boxes6.jpg

cv_boxes7.jpg

 

I think my favorite thing is that when you put them side by side with the classic boxes, they totally fit right into the library:

cv_boxes8.jpg

I love that Collectorvision made these available, thank you! And kudos to Greg Off who apparently did the design (and he's a guy I used to work with when I was in the games business which just shows how small of a world this all is!) Now I just need to get some more loose carts to put into these boxes to make them more complete! Anyone know how I can get a one-off of Dig Dug or Pac-Man made? =)

ok I seriously need these. Can I buy them from someone or trade?

[Tkat5200]

A few new additions today thanks to CollectorVision and eBay! =) Glad to finally have one of these press kits back in my collection again!

I used to get those catalogs from coleco when I was a kid. all my friends were jealous cause i'd see what was coming and what not...ahhh the good ol days

[matthew180]

To add a little to Tursi's post. The F18A can process all 32 sprites for every scan-line, the original VDPs (9918A, 9928, 9929) only had time to process 4 sprites per scan-line. Unless a program specifically turns off a sprite for a scan-line, it will be drawn.

 

However, it is known that some programs took advantage of the fact that a 5th sprite on a scan-line would not be drawn and used this characteristic of the VDP to mask other sprites. For this reason the F18A has a jumper (USR1) that allows you to set the default number of sprites on a scan-line. With the jumper "on" the number of sprites per scan-line is 32 (which is how I ship the F18A since this is what most people want), with the jumper "off" the F18A will be limited to 4-sprites per scan-line just like the original VDPs and sprites will flicker or not be drawn just like the original VDPs.

 

The number of sprites per scan-line is also configurable via software for new programs that unlock the F18A's enhanced register set. There are also other settings built into the F18A to limit the number of sprites on a scan-line that cause a collision. This was added to allow 32 sprites on a single scan-line but still have the collision bit in the status register act like there were only 4 sprites on the scan-line.

 

Both of these settings (and others not mentioned) were added to try and keep the F18A true to the original VDP, yet still add enhancements in a way that does not interfere with the original functionality. As you can see, no matter what you do there will always be exceptions and it is very hard to cover all the cases. Sprites were particularly difficult due to all the ways they are used, the undocumented functionality, etc.

 

Also, there is a jumper (USR2) added in the V1.6 firmware to reproduce virtual CRT-looking scan-lines. Basically every other scan-line is reduced by 50% intensity. If you have a V1.6 firmware F18A, give it a try (remove USR2 and power-cycle you computer.)

 

If you have a V1.5 or lower firmware in your F18A, there is an in-system update available for the 99/4A computer. I apologize for not having an in-system update for other systems right now (I'd be interested in working with anyone in the CV community who would be willing to help write the updater for the CV.) Alternatively I offer an firmware update service on my web store, or you can do the update yourself if you have (or buy for about $30..$50) a JTAG programming cable.

[matthew180]

Is there any way to keep the original 4:3 aspect ratio? The more I look into newer TV's I notice they don't have a VGA input. And it looks like I might lose that option. Is there any way to convert to HDMI without having it stretch?

A VGA to HDMI converter could add borders during conversion to output a 16:9 ratio image with the original 4:3 VGA image centered in the middle. Now, whether or not any HDMI converters do this I don't know. This is basically what a TV with "normal 4:3" support is doing.

 

Trying not to go off on a soapbox or tangent, but supporting modern video displays is a PITA. Most people want it to "just work", yet all the old retro-systems were born in a 4:3 aspect world and it is not that simple. There is always the question as to how do you fit the 4:3 video into a 16:9 or other aspect. Something has to be padded, chopped, or stretched. Even if the F18A could output HDMI directly, how should the original 4:3 256x192 pixels be translated to a 16:9 1920x1080 display?

 

The other comment I see is people not wanting to see the up-scaled pixels on their 50" TV... Uh, ok... Not sure how to fix that one. Personally I like pixels, the more square and crisp the better. :-)

[TPR]

Personally I like pixels, the more square and crisp the better. :-)

 

Thanks for all the great additional information Matthew! And I agree. I really like the squared off looking results of the VGA screen more than the stretched out 16:9 screen. Please let me know when you get more F18A's in stock!

[chart45]

matthew do you think you could do the same kind of board for the nes to replace the ppu....

 

vga nes

[matthew180]

The short answer: yes. I've been thinking about such a thing since before the F18A was done. I actually based the F18A's scrolling and name-table layout on the NES PPU (since it in-turn is based on the 9918A.) But based on what I learned about the retro-computer market through the F18A, I'm not so motivated to put in the effort. Also, working alone on projects like that sucks. I guess I have yet to find any positive reasons to begin.

[chart45]

nes have 100000 more fan than the colecovision but if you are alone to build all those board with familly and full time job its too mutch for sure

 

hope it will happen one day

[juice2839]

 

Thanks for all the great additional information Matthew! And I agree. I really like the squared off looking results of the VGA screen more than the stretched out 16:9 screen. Please let me know when you get more F18A's in stock!

 

He was saying the more squared the more pixels. So which do you like the 16:9 or the original aspect ratio? LOL

[TPR]

 

He was saying the more squared the more pixels. So which do you like the 16:9 or the original aspect ratio? LOL

 

Yes, I know that. And I was saying I liked the 4:3 aspect ratio because it looked more square. (the actual image on the screen, not the pixels) Sorry my post went over your head. Maybe it was "too technical" for you. LOL

[juice2839]

 

Yes, I know that. And I was saying I liked the 4:3 aspect ratio because it looked more square. (the actual image on the screen, not the pixels) Sorry my post went over your head. Maybe it was "too technical" for you. LOL

 

It's okay I get a kick out of how you regurgitate knowledgeable individuals information (sometimes just picking what you think is right in some fashion) and blindly going about life not understanding any of it... I have a knob that goes to 11 i'll sell you.. LMAO

Edited October 16, 2015 by juice2839