are all AV mods like this?!?!

[Greg2600]

I've found that RF on an old CRT can be pretty close visually to composite (modded), IF you use the proper equipment. That means using cable industry coaxial, with radioshack adapters to be able to connect it to your system. However, while the video will look pretty good, the sound is not anywhere near as good as an AV mod. Honestly, I mainly had my RF consoles modded to play on newer HDTV's.

[CatPix]

Well, this escalated quickly.

 

I feel like giving some answers and I'll stop here, because AtariAge is a nice forum with people from all origins and all ages, and I hope it will stay that way.

 

Some first I have to apologize, for two things :

First, maybe using the word moot, without indicating that is was my opinion was a mistake. If anyone feel ofeended, then it's not what I wished for. It's a wrong phrasing on my side.

 

Second, the next part of this message isn't going to be related with A/V mod, or so little it doesn't matter. For those who wish to get more interesting informations or just doesn't care about this, feel free to scroll.

 

 

 

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So, let's get it back point by point.

 

 

By the mid 70s, b/w TVs were cheap secondary sets for the kids' bedroom. By 1980, I don't remember anyone even owning a b/w TV unless it was one of the portables that used a dozen D cell batteries (good for camping). In 1988 (my senior year in high school) I bought my 19" Zenith STEREO color TV with COMPOSITE input and audio inputs/outputs. I actually still own it and use it with my 130XE.

 

So on this point you're right. I didn't get further, but that's what I meant to say. My fingers slipped and I typed 90 instead of 80. Also note that I used the words "before the 80's" and not "the 80's". Why is that? because the 60's and 50 are concerned as well (there was certainly more B&W TV in the 60's than color TV, and even more in the 50's.. especially since color TV appeared on the European market in 1967, and I mentionned talking about America AND Western Europe.)

So the mistake is on my side.

 

Then...

 

 

We come to the babbling. Yes, of this I won't apologize.

Because :

I have to ask...in the late 70s did you ever gather with a bunch of friends at your house or one of theirs to play Atari or Intellivision on the family room TV?

In the 80s, did you ride your bike or skateboard to the local arcade, pizza place or bowling alley to meet with a bunch of friends and pump quarters into REAL ARCADE GAMES? Do you remember unwrapping 2600 ET on Christmas morning 1982? How about the disappointment of the first time you plugged PacMan into your woodgrain 2600?

Did you use your Atari or C64 and a 300 baud modem to call local BBSs...or maybe even run your own BBS in the mid to late 80s? How many cool 8 bit games did you copy and trade with friends on 5¼" disks?

 

 

This is totally irrelevant to the thread, or to me, or to anything. No one in this thread mentionned BBS, arcade or pizza. You did. What for?

 

 

I know people who have recreated 1950s malt shops with original restaurant equipment, pinball machines and jukeboxes from that era. I don't tell them that a modern piece of shit mixer, made to look retro, sold at Target it just as good or better than their originals. I also don't tell them that a new replica Crosley jukebox that plays CDs and docks a damn ipod is better than their original juke that plays 45s.

Furthermore, I don't go into an audiophile group and tell them to hack up and modify a 1960s tube amp they paid $15,000 for, or tell them they can hear the same music even better on a modern 7.1 receiver. Also don't tell them to include a subwoofer to their setup which includes 50 year old drivers they paid thousands of dollars for.

 

Again more babbling. Again, this is irrelevant to the situation.

 

Oh, wait, I got it!

It's because I'm talking about modding yeah?

 

Then your analogy is wrong. It would be correct if I was talking about getting a Retron 5 or something (fun fact : étron is the French word for shit. And it's about what I think about those emulator machines) I'm talking about working on that part of the machine that produce the picture.

 

And to re use your example, that's exactly what the "people who have recreated 1950s malt shops with original restaurant equipment, pinball machines and jukeboxes from that era" have to do.

How?

 

Well unless they also used cement, wood panels, lightbulbs, glasses, paint, electric wires, electric plugs, etc.. from the 50's, they did that. They took the heart of the thing thay wanna recreate, and they fixed the little missing parts with moderns ones. Because the past is... well, past. It left some things behind, but not all of them. And if there is still some 50 years old cans and coffee in the world, it would probably be illegal to serve them, or peopel wouldn't even want to eat it.

 

Plus, you'll notice that I advised to take example of what has been made.

 

All the pictures I showed are original, time made systems.

in 1982, the Colecovision was sold in France with a RGB SCART output. Right from CBS. Not from a second hand modder, not from a grey import company, it was right from the very official CBS box. (just in case : CBS was the European and even Canadian importer of the Colecovision).

My Colecovision have RGB since 1982, not 1992 or 2012. Tho you can argue that it was by CBS, not Coleco. Fine, then moving on to more consoles :

 

Mattel sold the Intellivision in France in two flavors : one with SECAM RF output, and one with RGB SCART output. Again, back in 1982. And from Mattel. And you can't argue that Mattel Europe did it without Mattel USA knowing about. Mattel was eager to create a video chip that would play the games at 100% speed and use 100% of the screen, where actual Intellivision games run slower than their US counterparts and have black bars on the top and lower parts of the screen.

 

Atari sold some Atari 2600 Jr in France with a composite output, and the 7800 with a RGB output. Again, right from the box, not second-hand modded.

 

The Commodore 64 was sold in France either with a PAL composite output, or a SECAM and RGB output.

 

So tell me, why would it be a crime to do again what they did.. BACK IN THE DAY? That's fitting with the era. It existed. You can't deny it. For every French players, using a SCART to conenct your Colecovision or your Atari 7800? That's how it was meant to be played.

 

And I didn't even said that people should use it, I said that people that seek a working video mod should look at those.

 

 

 

 

And yet another brilliant statement by someone who was dropping turds in a diaper when then SNES was released.

 

Stop looking down your nose at people when they mention how something was "meant to played"...especially when the person you're replying to actually lived and experienced that era.

 

We got it, you could be my father. It still not relevant to the fact that console had mostly RF out because of technical issues and not because consoles makers though it was better that way.

Unless you have sources that says otherwise.

You want help?

 

About the Wii, Nintendo clearly stated that it would never have HDMI because they weren't interested into HD games.

So for the Wii at least, if you get into the same case than here, you can quote Nintendo saying that they did'nt wanted HDMI. There, it works.

 

 

 

What name were you going by 20 years ago on alt.atari and RGVC?

 

Region aside, he comes off as highly arrogant for telling people they're babbling on or their point is moot when they don't agree his ideas of emulation or mutilation of a console.

 

Again, pushing your irrelevant experience to anyone's face. Have you so few arguments that you need to push your "old age" and your experience in our faces to look more impressive and knowledgeable?

 

We may not agree with each other, it's a thing. it's possible. We're 7 billion people on Earth (and guess what! an absurdely high percentage of those people is older than you! And an equally large percentage is younger!).

 

We're 7 billions, and it's impossible that we all agree on everyone's ideas.

 

However, it's very possible to discuss about those ideas, to show the weaknesses and strenghs of them, without bashing anyone. Also, you may stumble sometime on threads on AtariAge and other places that talk about things you absolutely dont like and have no interest into. Well, there is a good idea : Don't go!

 

There are on this sub-forum, "High Scores Club" thread. You won't see me there. Why? I'm not interested! But I don't go there and get in a thread to say "look at me I don't waste maah time putting big digits on mah screen LOL". Please no.

(please note too, that while I don't have interest in high scoring, high scoring is a massively impressive gameplay performance that I admire. I'm not mocking people doing it. I am just not interested in doing it myself.)

 

If you wanna debate about A/V modding, fine. Let's do it. By talking about A/V modding, not your evening at a bowling alley with your buddies back in 1986 or how you happily ruined editors and programers by sharing illegal copies of games on BBS. (which is an interesting testimony, but it doesn't belong here.)

 

There are multiple reasons to A/V mod and not A/V mod. We're here to discuss them. But in the end, it's the console's owner that decide.

We can't force him or her to do it, so the best we can do is to give the most unbiased advices. Or biased one, when you explain why.

Edited June 22, 2015 by CatPix

[Turbo-Torch]

You flat out don't get it.

 

In another thread, Nuclear Pac made a comment on collections (not to you) and you felt the need to jump in and tell him he's BABBLING...in other words, what he had to say was IRRELEVANT.

 

Retrogamer made a general comment in this thread to no one in particular, yet you needed to tell him his view is a MOOT POINT...in other words, what he had to say is IRRELEVANT.

 

I thought maybe a few analogies of other hobbies or how people experienced the real deal and want the original real deal may clear things up, but it was just more BABBLING to you.

 

Maybe terms like babbling means something different in your country, if so let me know.

 

As far as RF vs. Composite...I don't care! People can do what ever they want with equipment they own. If someone wants to change the output, more power to them. If Retrogamer decides he wants an original RF cord in the same shade of black and the same length as the original, I'm ok with that too (and personally my first choice).

 

However, you don't seem to be ok with what other people do when it goes against your beliefs. It actually IRKS you and drives you berzerk.

 

But some colelctions, like shrinkwrapped collections, irks me the most. Because it's USELESS.

 

 

 

Useless huh? Nice.

[ApolloBoy]

I have to ask...in the late 70s did you ever gather with a bunch of friends at your house or one of theirs to play Atari or Intellivision on the family room TV?

In the 80s, did you ride your bike or skateboard to the local arcade, pizza place or bowling alley to meet with a bunch of friends and pump quarters into REAL ARCADE GAMES? Do you remember unwrapping 2600 ET on Christmas morning 1982? How about the disappointment of the first time you plugged PacMan into your woodgrain 2600?

Did you use your Atari or C64 and a 300 baud modem to call local BBSs...or maybe even run your own BBS in the mid to late 80s? How many cool 8 bit games did you copy and trade with friends on 5¼" disks?

Are you seriously pulling the "no true Scotsman" fallacy now?

[ledzep]

I recently got my Intellivision mod back from a fellow atariage forum member and I'm shocked! It's picture perfect compared to the coaxial. Are all AV mods for old systems like this? Why don't more people mod their systems? I love the audio and picture quality.

 

I have a modded 5200. I got it because I saw the future. Understand, I didn't like the future I was seeing, just that it was becoming obvious that less and less CRTs would exist. I owned one, a beautiful Sony Wega 36" TV, 4:3 aspect ratio. The consoles looked amazing on it. It died last year, now I have a Sony 4K flatscreen 16:9 aspect ratio. The games don't look the same on it, don't look "right". The CRTs glowed with juicy colors, flatscreens do not. But (always a but), I was thinking that I want it to be easier to hook up my 5200 to whatever TV I might have later and I wanted to be able to take the thing to someone else's house and be able to play it there without bringing along an RF box or some other archaic gear.

 

I'd prefer CRTs to flatscreens (so far) but I'm not in charge of manufacturing TVs. So flatscreens, and their changing connection formats, are my problem. The 5200 is actually S-Video, haahaha, nice slap in my face since many new flatscreen TVs don't support that, only composite and (maybe) component and then the rest is all HDMI... until that changes, too. I have a heavy-sixer Sears 2600 that I plan to have modded (I'm in no mood to butcher it myself and screw up the mod kit) by someone eventually. It will be just so much easier to deal with that way. I just wish the flatscreen TVs looked better, had truer colors for 8-bit games.

[+madman]

For me, I'll never have a mod done on my "original" systems, I still own the INTV and NES I had as a kid. Would I consider purchasing a modded 2600 or 7800? Definitely. When I hook up those older systems, the RF noise just seems "right", though I realize many would prefer a cleaner picture. For more modern systems, PC-Engine and newer, I prefer RGB output, many systems natively output it without mods, or with mods that don't require cosmetic changes. At the end of the day, that's my choice and certainly we all have our own opinions.

[Turbo-Torch]

I'd prefer CRTs to flatscreens (so far) but I'm not in charge of manufacturing TVs.

 

 

On the positive side, CRT TVs are easily found for free.

Here's an example in my area.

http://chicago.craigslist.org/sox/zip/5083562003.html

 

I have a feeling things won't stay that way and in 5 to 10 years you'll pay dearly for that Wega.

[Oge]

I agree about using CRTs (as the quality is superior with Composite, S-Video and/or analog RGB when compared to any LCD out there) but I know several people who sticks to RF even if their Console or Home Computer has better outputs.

 

Back in the day we used RF because the lack of other inputs on the TV, no more no less. Sticking on RF nowadays while there is the chance to relieve our eyes (and ears) with a better output is preferable.

 

 

Cheers,

Oge

[Nutsy Doodleheimer]

On the positive side, CRT TVs are easily found for free.

Here's an example in my area.

http://chicago.craigslist.org/sox/zip/5083562003.html

 

I have a feeling things won't stay that way and in 5 to 10 years you'll pay dearly for that Wega.

Bought mine. A 21" at the Goodwill store for $5. It's a flat screen CRT. I had to pay an extra $8 as it didn't come with a remote so I had to buy a RCA remote at a Walgreens. Took 2 minutes to activate and configure it. Old school games plus light gun zappers are crucial to it.

[phoenixdownita]

I personally AV mod myself all my systems to get SVideo out of them (the one that don't have it already that is), can't use RGB over the pond and don't want to buy the XRGB-Mini.

 

The only one out of the systems I own is the Coleco that I attempted to composite mod with mixed results (maybe I messed up), also the 7800 SVideo seems not to play too nice with my LCD TV [blue screen every few secs] but at least the composite out of the same board works fine. Also my NeoGeo SVideo sometimes blue screens, again it has to do with some (mine) modern TV being pickier about the signals they accept and old consoles playing dirty wrt sync frequencies and stuff.

 

The main reason for me to mod to SVideo is that my LCD TV processes composite rather poorly, while SVideo is so much cleaner (MD, SMS, NeoGeo .....).

Some consoles have better composite than others (PCE seems to be among the best at least for my LCD TV).

Some consoles do not have RF at all. Some consoles (NES) have a weird roping effect due to how they generate colors (in specific analog color signals), mine has Tim's RGB mod which I only use for SVideo once more.

 

Only thing that is lost going SVideo (or RGB) is the "artifacts" inherent in RF/composite (on CRT) which allowed old systems to feign (via clever tricks) transparencies or extra colors (case in point being Tower Toppler on 7800, so unbelievably different composite vs SVideo -> SVideo looks ugly, and given the 7800 could render more colors than its siblings of the time totally unnecessary; second case the waterfalls in Sonic MD looks like crap over SVideo due the missing blending or bleeding of rendering alternating columns, obviously there's more but you get the gist).

 

Given many console manufactures of the time did provide RGB as an alternative on their AV connectors as a superior connection it seems weird to assume that RF was their first and only choice, it likely was the most market effective to get into any house.

 

Peace out. AV mod if you like it, don't AV mod if you don't like it, neither is reason to be rude, neither makes the experience truer. I prefer clean visuals even if it means loosing some level of artifacts as blurry things give me headache and I cannot afford to have in the house a decent sized CRT.

Edited June 23, 2015 by phoenixdownita

[ApolloBoy]

can't use RGB over the pond

Yes you can, I use a Sony PVM for RGB stuff and it works great.

[7800fan]

Commodore monitor also has RGB. You may need to fashion a custom cable with inline sync separater such as LM1881M to get H and V alongt with RGB.

 

I am planning to mod my Duo-R with standard RGB amp and pinout, then a custom cable for Duo with inline LM1881M to a 6 pin DIN for the monitor I have.

[phoenixdownita]

Not my cup of tea.

 

I want to play in a 27' or better, and that is a too much CRT to have in the house.

 

Truth be told I do have an older 42' plasma TV that accepts RGB-HV, still not gonna happen for me (and this one even over SVideo doesn't look as great)

 

And in all seriousness the vast majority of my SVideo modded consoles looks just great over my current LCD TV (a 27') so I don't feel like going any further given how easy usually SVideo mods are.

If I was in Europe then obviously it would be Scart RGB all the way, no point in anything else.

[7800fan]

Same here. I would love to RGB everything I got but RGB weren't common on USA side and generally it's hard to find one bigger than 13". I am using a 32" Vizio TV that has almost everything and works with Atari to PS3 (it does not have 15Khz RGB input and can only take 31KHz)

[ApolloBoy]

That's where SCART to component converters and upscalers come in...

[7800fan]

But $300 for a quality scaler means no rare and fun game from eBay, no sushi for about 20 days or cheap pizza for 60 days.