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Atari Jaguar vs Sega Saturn hardware power


babrasch

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No, not again. Use the search function.

 

In short, if you can fit an entire game into 4k then by all means don't use the 68000.

I only found this:

 

 

The Jaguar uses 24-bit addressing, and is reportedly capable of accessing

data as follows:

 

Six megabytes cartridge ROM

Eight megabytes DRAM

Two megabytes miscellaneous/expansion

 

All of the processors can access the main DRAM memory area directly. The

Digital Signal Processor and the Graphics Processor can execute code out

of either their internal caches, or out of main memory. The only

limitations are that

 

(1) "jump" instructions in main memory have certain restrictions; the JMP

(unconditional jump) command is longword-aligned, while the JR

(jump-indexed-by-register) command must be either word- or longword-

aligned. And

(2) running out of the cache is much faster (up to four times faster) and

efficient.

 

Some believe that the inability to jump/branch in main memory makes the

main memory feature useless.

 

Swapping data between the caches and the main memory is a quick, low

overhead operation, and therefore the main memory is often used as "swap

space" for cache code. The RISC compiler included in the latest Jaguar

developer's kit produced code that transparently swaps code through the

cache. This effectively allowed developers write RISC code without

concern for the cache size limits.

 

 

[EDIT: guess I found what you refer to

http://www.hillsoftware.com/files/atari/jaguar/jag_v8.pdf

pag 137]

15 Executing JUMP or JR from external memory

Note - This bug applies to both Tom & Jerry.

Level 3 software

Description: If either a JUMP or JR instruction is executed from external memory it is possible for this to

align with the memory interface in such a way that the pre-fetch queue ends up holding invalid

data. This means that these instructions can not be safely executed out of external memory.

Work-around: Do not place programs that contain JUMP or JR in external memory. This rules out almost all

programs.

Edited by phoenixdownita
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I am such a sucker for failed consoles like the Pippin, and their could have been stories, hehe.

 

Hey, at least it has Marathon and Marathon 2, that makes it pretty cool in my book.

 

I have always wondered how hard it would be to port some Mac games to the Pippin, like Wolfenstein 3d and Doom.

 

About how it compares with other consoles, it sure seems quiet weaker than the Saturn and PS1, and a bit better than 3DO and Jaguar (at least at 3d, Jag should beat it at 2d, right?). It had to do everything though the 66 mhz powerpc CPU, but at least it had about 6 MB of RAM, and was expandable. I wonder how better game engines could have gotten on it with time.

 

There is a site that has the original developer documentation that shows you how to port mac games to the pippin. You still need a ROM card 1.3 or dongle to bypass the authentication. I have a disc with Macplay Wolfenstein 3D on it and have been meaning to do some experimentation with other titles. Wolf3D runs really slow on any res but the lowest so it makes me appreciate the effort bungie put into the platform specific version of Super Marathon a bit more. But I collect for the Acan, Pippin, Marty, XEGS so I am a sucker for the failed consoles too :P

 

The nicest looking 2D game (Power Rangers imo) gets a bit choppy so I agree it'd have been nice to see what could've been done later.

Edited by Willard
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There is a site that has the original developer documentation that shows you how to port mac games to the pippin. You still need a ROM card 1.3 or dongle to bypass the authentication. I have a disc with Macplay Wolfenstein 3D on it and have been meaning to do some experimentation with other titles. Wolf3D runs really slow on any res but the lowest so it makes me appreciate the effort bungie put into the platform specific version of Super Marathon a bit more. But I collect for the Acan, Pippin, Marty, XEGS so I am a sucker for the failed consoles too :P

 

The nicest looking 2D game (Power Rangers imo) gets a bit choppy so I agree it'd have been nice to see what could've been done later.

Sounds really cool about the Wolf3D experiment Willard!. You should post a video.

Yeah Power Rangers is choppy and the gameplay is very simplistic. But at least its a glimpse of 2d gaming on the system, hehe.

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The RISC compiler included in the latest Jaguar developer's kit produced code that transparently swaps code through the cache. This effectively allowed developers write RISC code without concern for the cache size limits.

 

 

LOL.

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All I can add is that I remember the interview in Next Generation magazine from back in the day touting the Jaguar's relative parity to the competition and even then we all knew it was nonsense. It was good for a chuckle and nothing else. While something like that could be potentially damaging for a platform, there was really nothing more that could be damaged. The platform was already at a low point.

 

For me personally I've always been more focused on the "show me" rather than "tell me" aspects of a system's capabilities. The Jaguar is full of "tell me" stuff, from its paper specs to its "untapped" potential. Unfortunately, there's very little actual "show me" content that backs up the hyperbole.

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'Your' Next Generation Mag is 'Our' Edge magazine or equiv. of?

UK wise we had Edge Issue 18, Atari logo on front cover, Atari:From boom to bust and back again feature.8 page feature 'As Atari prepares for a brighter future, Edge talks to the company president, Sam Tramiel'
Lot of talk from Sam about Jaguar not being a make or break product, Saturn being too expensive, Nintendo not even having a next gen 'product' yet, hardware manufactuers not happy with 3DO group doubling royalties, Playstation being too expensive to be taken seriousily and he could'nt see Sony focusing much on it and whilst Sony would be a player in the hardware race, it would'nt be a big one...and when asked what he saw the future of Atari holding..it was....Success.
So...make of his comments what you will.
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'Your' Next Generation Mag is 'Our' Edge magazine or equiv. of?

UK wise we had Edge Issue 18, Atari logo on front cover, Atari:From boom to bust and back again feature.8 page feature 'As Atari prepares for a brighter future, Edge talks to the company president, Sam Tramiel'
Lot of talk from Sam about Jaguar not being a make or break product, Saturn being too expensive, Nintendo not even having a next gen 'product' yet, hardware manufactuers not happy with 3DO group doubling royalties, Playstation being too expensive to be taken seriousily and he could'nt see Sony focusing much on it and whilst Sony would be a player in the hardware race, it would'nt be a big one...and when asked what he saw the future of Atari holding..it was....Success.
So...make of his comments what you will.

 

 

Based on how Edge has been described here on AtariAge, I don't think so (EDIT: You know, in looking at the design of Edge, there must have been some connection there that I'm not aware of. Still, the editorial content of Next Generation has never really been called into question like I've read that of Edge's). Next Generation was highly respected here in the US and that, along with the original Electronic Games and The Official Dreamcast Magazine, were among the handful of magazines I genuinely felt bad about going under. Here's the issue I was referring to: https://archive.org/details/nextgen-issue-007 ("Atari's President Talks Back" with the most legendary statements being the concluding comments on page 12)

 

(EDIT EDIT: Apparently the editorial content was shared, so there was a connection. Never mind then. Next Generation was clearly intended as a US offshoot of Edge. I assume then that the Tramiel interview then was done by the Next Generation editorial team and subsequently run by Edge, so we're talking about the exact same piece.)

Edited by Bill Loguidice
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Thanks Bill.I've never really explored the connection between Edge and Next Generation mag, more assimed your Next Generation mag was trying to do for your sector, what Edge was, report on then cutting edge hardware (cue our mags title) and stand apart from the more mainstream press.

 

Hopefully Next Generations reporting and use of Freelancers were a little higher up the standards scale than Edge's...

 

Edge here has always presented itself as THE highly respected..the Industry Bible etc etc and it's only once you fug beneath the surface you started to see the true picture..

 

Screens they knew to be fakes passed off as actual game shots, Atari UK correcting them on news reports, airbrushed Xbox screens, questions asked over Rockstar's advertising involvement (reviews reading like lower score than they were awarded) and deals for exclusive cover art (look hard enough online and you'll find the claims), coders quoted as saying they were experts on platforms in reality they'd never touched etc.

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Thanks Bill.I've never really explored the connection between Edge and Next Generation mag, more assimed your Next Generation mag was trying to do for your sector, what Edge was, report on then cutting edge hardware (cue our mags title) and stand apart from the more mainstream press.

 

Hopefully Next Generations reporting and use of Freelancers were a little higher up the standards scale than Edge's...

 

Edge here has always presented itself as THE highly respected..the Industry Bible etc etc and it's only once you fug beneath the surface you started to see the true picture..

 

Screens they knew to be fakes passed off as actual game shots, Atari UK correcting them on news reports, airbrushed Xbox screens, questions asked over Rockstar's advertising involvement (reviews reading like lower score than they were awarded) and deals for exclusive cover art (look hard enough online and you'll find the claims), coders quoted as saying they were experts on platforms in reality they'd never touched etc.

 

Yeah, like I said, I've never heard about or myself once questioned the editorial integrity of Next Generation magazine, though ours had a shorter run than Edge (and I'm not counting when Next Generation came back briefly as NextGen). The fact that they shared editorial content though does throw some of that in doubt, but again, I can't point to any facts that Next Generation posted or claimed that haven't been substantiated over time. They were certainly a favorite resource of mine in writing a few of the chapters of "Vintage Game Consoles" because they did such a wonderful job on early access stuff and previews with what eventually became the Nintendo 64 (Ultra 64) and PS1. I remember at the time being quite enthralled by the ongoing coverage leading up to the respective launches.

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Just had a look, blimey Edge only had 1 page, so a lot more to 'digest' in the Next Generation article.

Interesting to hear him mention sales figures on Jaguar, Bob Brodie from my limited exposure, always seemed to imply this was an Area Atari were unwilling to discuss/was'nt policy to give figures...
The Co-Jag (or Ko-Jag as it's stated there) hardware i saw mentuioned elsewhere the other day, glad to see Atari explaining it was 'beefed up' hardware, but it's more than just audio and newer, more powerful CPU is'nt it? lot more Ram and HDD (in all but 2 Co-Jag games).
As for his Saturn comments..well i suppose there you'd be looking at a VS of things like Saturn Gun Griff. 1+2, Mech Warrior 2 Vs IS2 and as for AVP not being done as well on Saturn, Colours? i guess not, but we already know (from scan i had put up here) Rebellion were doing an enhanced conversion from Jaguar to Saturn/PS1 with lot of features missing from Jaguar game.
So would of been interesting if they'd of done a follow-up interview :-)
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:-) Luckily for myself Bill, i've likes of Rebellion, Darryl Still, Richard Barclay, upcoming interview in Classic Console Mag with said miss-quoted Saturn coder (never touched it) who've corrected and commented on Edge's reporting and in Rebellion's case reviewing also....which have lead me to question a lot of the 'Holier Than Thou (mainstram magazine)' stances they've taken over the years.

 

But to be fair, Edge is far, far from the only UK magazine to report utter rubbish as fact...both then and indeed now.

 

I'm sure i've ruffled many a feather over the years by taking a press or freelancers claim, presenting it to the person/people involved and getting the bigger picture as it was.....

 

 

Something i'm not done with yet :-)

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One of the rarer models/revisions of the AtWorld Pippin can be hacked relatively easily and standard Mac games can be played on it. Unfortunately, the standard AtMark model doesn't have this ability. I'm not sure how easy it would be to actually convert Mac games to the Pippin. Maybe if someone had an official Dev kit it would be possible? I have no idea.

 

Interesting platform. Unfortunately, there's little reason to own one outside of Shockwave, Marathon and Tropic Island Pinball (the first two which are easily acquired on other platforms). The hardware is nice though and its 3D capabilities seemed to be a step above the 3DO from what I can tell, with everything running at 640X480 with crisp visuals and smooth framerates. It's a shame there weren't more worthwhile Pippin-specific games or at least a wider array of nice Mac ports (a port of the Mac Wolf 3D would have been awesome, for instance).

Like this one?

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/APPLE-PIPPIN-WORLD-BLACK-LIMITED-VERSION-JAP-PIPPIN-AT-WORLD-APPLE-JP-/271903745092?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f4eb9e444

 

I'd love to play 90's mac games on a console...

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Was'nt just Sam T. speculating how PS1/Saturn would struggle to do games as well as his system, RJ Mical said 3DO Road Rash with it's blend of 3D horsepower and 2D character animation made for a rich experience and it was doubtful some of these new polygon systems coming out would be able to do that very well.

 

Edge Dec'94.

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Hey - I heard that the Jag wasn't actually 64 bit, but actually 2 32-bit processors in parallel. Is this true? (ducks for cover)

Wait, there is also a 16 bit cpu in there, making it an 80-bit beast!!!!. That Atari was selling their console short!. No wonder they went out of business.

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Wait, there is also a 16 bit cpu in there, making it an 80-bit beast!!!!. That Atari was selling their console short!. No wonder they went out of business.

 

The 68000 is a 32 bit CPU stuck on a 16 bit bus, so there's actually 96 bits!!!!!!

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The 68000 is a 32 bit CPU stuck on a 16 bit bus, so there's actually 96 bits!!!!!!

You are right!. There is no doubt about it, Atari sucked at math!. So the Jaguar is basically a 3 core architecture ;) ?

 

With that sort of bittage (is that even a word?), they should have held the Jaguars release until about a year after the N64 was released, and it would still have more bits than the competition...oh wait that darned Sega Saturn, has even more cpus that the Jaggy, damn :_( ...

Edited by sd32
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Yep, that's it. Interesting to see one boxed like that!

 

That's just a normal @World. You can see the number 1 on the bottom. The retail @world set came in a large box with 3 boxes inside of it (box 1,2 and 3 :P). Those were being sold for a little while by a Japanese wholesaler and some people decided to flip them a a bit of a markup as per that guy. I got one and it wasn't anything unusual.

 

There is a rumor that some unsold @World stock were sent back to Japan and sold with a ROM that allows unauthenticated software to run, but I don't know how well substantiated it was.

 

Honestly you cannot tell which model @World runs unauthenticated software by looking at it. Even some of the Katz consoles didn't allow it (I know, I have one that doesn't).

Edited by Willard
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Sounds really cool about the Wolf3D experiment Willard!. You should post a video.

Yeah Power Rangers is choppy and the gameplay is very simplistic. But at least its a glimpse of 2d gaming on the system, hehe.

 

I just put up a video showing with my iphone, don't have any capture software setup. This runs with the 16MB memory expansion, it's actually quite a bit worse without it. But it shows that some optimization is required aside from just running mac game strictly on the pippin.

 

if you watch it all the way through you can see how the game reacts to different screen sizes and that you can still save to the flash memory, although with some extra work you can add hard drives, zip drives .etc to your Pippin too.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wz4BQzOmZAY

Edited by Willard
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I just put up a video showing with my iphone, don't have any capture software setup. This runs with the 16MB memory expansion, it's actually quite a bit worse without it. But it shows that some optimization is required aside from just running mac game strictly on the pippin.

 

if you watch it all the way through you can see how the game reacts to different screen sizes and that you can still save to the flash memory, although with some extra work you can add hard drives, zip drives .etc to your Pippin too.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wz4BQzOmZAY

Wow, Wolf 3D actually running on a Pippin... thats really cool. One would think a game like Wolf 3D would run perfect on the Pippin, given the hardware specs. So converting or Pippinizing Mac games isnt that easy. Certain level of optimization needs to take place.

 

Still, really cool project Willard, thanks for sharing with us.

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Wow, Wolf 3D actually running on a Pippin... thats really cool. One would think a game like Wolf 3D would run perfect on the Pippin, given the hardware specs. So converting or Pippinizing Mac games isnt that easy. Certain level of optimization needs to take place.

 

Still, really cool project Willard, thanks for sharing with us.

 

Wolfenstein 3D doesn't run well in the 640x480 mode but as shown it's fine in the 320x200 mode runs fine, I guess if you want to think of it in the sense that most console games of the time run nearer the 320x200 resolution it runs fine for the time. I'm sure someone with some reasonable coding skills could configure the game to run in the low res mode on the pippin so it runs full screen pretty easily.

 

When I get some time I'd like to test out a list of games (like Blackthorne .etc) to see which ones can be run on the Pippin pretty much as-is. But as I've never really been too enthusiastic about that side of computer/console systems (like running floppies on the CDTV or CD32 or converting Amiga Floppy games to CD32 disc) there's not a lot of motivation. Especially with no crack to the authentication to allow wider release of these games. I actually have the mac version of shockwave (North american version) so someday I can take a look and see if they just slapped it on the system or did some actual work :P

Edited by Willard
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