Atari Jaguar vs Sega Saturn hardware power

[NeoGeo64]

Personally I think VS threads are OK as long as they don't degenerate into a namecalling fest. I love to read about technical abilities of failed consoles we didn't really see the true potential of VS something that was (more) successful of the same console generation.

[Atlantis]

yes, missed potential comes with the failure - with success the machines potential is shown to the max - that make sense.

i also like vs threads if they make sense, and even though past threads have dealt with it, new perspectives comes with the years
(the subjects we could render are limited anyway, so why set more limits?)

[Lost Dragon]

One aspect i liked with Retro Gamers look at home conversions was when you had the coder responsible for the worst home versions interviewed and you found out just why the conversion turned out so poorly, so i do feel there's great scope to be had reading of why something failed to live upto the potential it had.

With hardware, it is interesting to read how later manufactuers almost sleep walked into same disasters those before them did and how the same mistakes seemed to be made (in Sega's case with Saturn rushing games like Daytona USA to retail, giving high profile games to 3rd parties etc etc) so there can be interesting comparisons, other than a 'straight' performance comparison type approach.

[Jagosaurus]

You think Sega would have learned from the Jaguar and the 32x not to go the dual processor route..

2 CPUs, 8 processors total and we thought the Jag was bad!

 

I'm personally a big saturn fan. I'm a sucker for underdogs I guess.

 

Timeline comment was a little off. That argument fits the N64 well (nearly 2.5 to 3 yrs after Jag depending on market). The Japanese release of the SS was only 1 year after the Jag.

 

Keep in mind the SS was a high end $399 machine. The Jag was built with budget in mind, making a console more powerful than the 16 bit machines at a more price agressive point. The Jag was $150 less than the SS at launch.

 

Edit - grammar

Edited July 5, 2015 by Jagosaurus

[Clint Thompson]

As far as the Saturn goes, it's easy to say it did far better than the Jaguar and Grid Runner was a blast to play!

[Bill Loguidice]

Timeline comment was a little off. That argument fits the N64 well (nearly 2.5 to 3 yrs after Jag depending on market). The Japanese release of the SS was only 1 year after the Jag.

 

Keep in mind the SS was a high end $399 machine. The Jag was built with budget in mind, making a console more powerful than the 16 bit machines at a more price agressive point. The Jag was $150 less than the SS at launch.

 

Edit - grammar

 

I'm not saying you're wrong, but calling the Jaguar a budget-minded machine is not really accurate. The fact of the matter is the Jaguar was never marketed as a budget machine, and certainly its games weren't budget priced. At $250, it was still priced higher than any other competing system out at the time (and eventually the CD-ROM add-on did add $150 to the albeit then lower core console price), save for the 3DO, CD-i, and Neo Geo (and of course the 3DO's price was artificially inflated, much to the detriment of a platform from that era that was otherwise best positioned to succeed).

[Bill Loguidice]

As far as the Saturn goes, it's easy to say it did far better than the Jaguar and Grid Runner was a blast to play!

 

Honestly, if we use sales as a metric, the Jaguar almost always loses (in the Saturn's case it sold over 9 million more units), and in terms of game library, it also almost always loses (in the Saturn's case, it had over 500 more releases). The only "fair" comparison for a system that failed in the way the Jaguar did is really taking individual games and doing comparisons of those or pointing out specific features. At this point I'd say the most interesting new versus threads based around the Jaguar would be to compare it against other epic console failures and see if it "wins" those, i.e., just how bad the Jaguar really was in comparison to other platforms that did poorly.

[Atlantis]

 

The only "fair" comparison for a system that failed in the way the Jaguar did is really taking individual games and doing comparisons of those or pointing out specific features. At this point I'd say the most interesting new versus threads based around the Jaguar would be to compare it against other epic console failures and see if it "wins" those, i.e., just how bad the Jaguar really was in comparison to other platforms that did poorly.

I think an Amiga CD32 vs Atari Jaguar is the most fare comparison on a console-console level.

[Bill Loguidice]

I think an Amiga CD32 vs Atari Jaguar is the most fare comparison on a console-console level.

 

Arguably, I suppose. The CD32 was really only available in Europe, Canada, Brazil, and Australia, though, so it's not necessarily the same type of major release system as the Jaguar. It was a similar failure, though, that I agree with, and certainly much of its potential wasn't realized, much like the Jaguar. It was also the last hurrah for the respective companies, so there's that connection as well.

 

Keeping recent Amiga conversions out of it (and homebrews on the Jaguar), I suppose their game libraries are roughly the same size, with a slight edge to the CD32. Of course, the CD32 could also play many CDTV titles for what that's worth, which makes the available library far larger. It is a bit too heavy on non-AGA Amiga ports, though, which was not good for a 90s console.

 

They both also had pretty dreadful stock controllers, though I will say the CD32's are far worse.

[Atlantis]

 

They both also had pretty dreadful stock controllers, though I will say the CD32's are far worse.

Yes, the CD32 pads are the worst ever: the d-pad had little dots which you had to push and it did hurt pretty bad fast, AND the d-pad also were a little tilted so to push it right or left you needed to hold the pad a little tilted otherwise you'd push left-down, left-up instead... horrible. A real tough time to push up, down, right, left since you needed to push those dots which hurt. And most of the old ports only used one action button, all you needed, pretty much was the read button. Look on a game like "Naughty ones", the yellow action button was....... pause!!!! omg.

 

To me, who owns a CD32, the Jaguar pad is heaven, and in lots of games you use lots of buttons on the Jag which is cool. Always used old Amiga joypads instead.

[sd32]

I think an Amiga CD32 vs Atari Jaguar is the most fare comparison on a console-console level.

 

Hmm, i donk know. In terms of specs, the Jaguar beats it pretty handly... worse than the Saturn beats the Jaguar. Hell, the CD32 has some tech disadvantages even againts the Sega Genesis and SNES. Not an impressive system at all considering it launched in 1993, same year as 3DO and Jaguar.

 

The CD32 is a repackaged system (AMIGA 1200), while the Jaguar chipset was an exclusive design, pretty darn nice for its time.

 

Most of the software on CD32, are ports, and in most cases, coming from lesser hardware (AMIGA500) with little enhancements (CD soundtrack, fmv, etc). The Jaguar got its share of port from lesser systems, but at least it also got a lot of exclusive games designed for it, regardless of the quality.

 

I agree with Bill about the Jaguar having the better controller of the 2. A lot of us find the Jag pad pretty comfortable.

 

Initial price. CD32 went for a CD based system, costing around 400 dollars. The Jaguar was much cheaper at 250.

 

About the libraries. The CD32 has a pretty nice one, with a bunch of really cool titles. Most of them ports of A500 titles, but slightly improved. All in all, it may have more "good" titles than the Jaguar, but overall its game catalog feels less impressive (16-bitish) than the Jags.

Edited July 8, 2015 by sd32

[+remowilliams]

In terms of raw capability (and not library) the Jag can fairly easily wipe the floor with the CD32 in many aspects.

[Atlantis]

They both, Amiga and Atari, went down with a last console as a swansong.

Both tried to use their old industry and old knowledge in their last effort: Amiga trans-mutated their computer A1200 from a floppy disk reader to a CD reader, and Atari with both a computer and a console side tried to stick with what they knew, creating once again a cartridge based console in line with the 2600, 5200, 7800, Lynx in try of cutting cost and not pour too much into the hardware development part in going for the cartridge based Jaguar. Probably two cheap strategies.

They both might have asked themselves: "- What do we have in our industry and what knowledge do we already have in the staff? Lets take advantage of that."

Hey, even Nintendo went down the same road as Atari Jaguar much later with their cart based N64. Even Nintendo went for cartridges a last time; they had it going with NES, SNES, which both did wonderful, why not try it again? The future for video game consoles back then was very much uncertain at this time with an open space for opportunism from both old-timers and new-comers; the one and only generation with nine competitors. What have we today, three (Xbox, PS and Nintendo).

Both Amiga and Atari maybe relied on hopes for 3rd part developers to come running like in the past, but ran out of luck in the new grim reality. That's my point, but it is off-topic, but my contribution to the topic is that Saturn isn't a fair comparison. Maybe CD32 and also N64 is a good comparison too, probably, when I think of it.

Yes, Amiga CD32 sucked, its control pad sucks and all its games suck! Can't count to 5 good games, and no exclusives come to mind. That is why I can't understand all this head bashing on Jaguar, when both CD32 and CDi suck sooo much more.

[Atlantis]

Lets say Atari did the same mistake as Amiga and trans-mutated/transformed their computer from a floppy drive reader into a CD console, wouldn't that have been even worse?

[+phoenixdownita]

Amiga was not a company anymore when the CD32 (or the first A1000 for that matter) came out, Commodore was.

 

So everything you say about the company, you meant Commodore.

 

The "bashing" on the Jag is due to the perceived "world changing experience" it was supposed to usher, none of the rest claimed that much (for sure not CDi or CD32). 3DO kind of tried but it's over-inflated price did not help.

 

To be fair now that I had more time to play again some 3D games on Saturn (or even PS1) I have to say most didn't age well. I believe it isn't until DC/Xbox/GC/PS2 that 3D looked "coming of age".

All of a sudden even if the proto 3D of Jag games is way worse it kinda makes sense to be that way (sort of a necessary evolutionary step, nowhere near the revolution it claimed to be, hence the bashing).

Edited July 9, 2015 by phoenixdownita

[Austin]

The best comparison to the Jag is the 32X. Similar library, similar demonstrated capabilities in their day (limted "3d"), similar sales (even though the 32X still probably sold five to ten times more units... man, the Jag sales numbers are so depressing the more I think about it), etc.

 

From a concept standpoint the CD32 is more like the FM Towns Marty. Lots of ports of existing computer games the hardware is based on, many with minimal additions/improvements, a good concept but ultimately failed execution (although I'll take the Marty's excellent arcade ports over a lot of the half-ass CD32 software any day).

[+madman]

The best comparison to the Jag is the 32X. Similar library, similar demonstrated capabilities in their day (unharnessed "3d" POWAH), similar sales (even though the 32X still probably sold five to ten times more units...

Fixed.

[sd32]

Yes, Amiga CD32 sucked, its control pad sucks and all its games suck! Can't count to 5 good games, and no exclusives come to mind. That is why I can't understand all this head bashing on Jaguar, when both CD32 and CDi suck sooo much more.

 

Amen to that my friend.

[+phoenixdownita]

The 32x seems to have sold 650K+ by 1994 end and I found it weird as by that time it was in the market for only 2 months.

It was in the market for 1 more year at a discounted price but there's no numbers on total sales over its lifetime

 

Virtua Racing on it is pretty decent, better than Checkered Flag, Club Drive, and WTR imho.

 

With the prices involved how CDi managed to sell 1M and the 3DO 2M I'll never get it.

Edited July 9, 2015 by phoenixdownita

[+remowilliams]

Virtua Racing on it is pretty decent, better than Checkered Flag, Club Drive, and WTR imho.

 

VR is great on the 32X > Checkered Flag, Club Drive, WTR and several other games combined

[+madman]

Virtua Racing on it is pretty decent, better than Checkered Flag, Club Drive, and WTR imho.

Worth the price of the 32X alone.

[Austin]

Worth the price of the 32X alone.

 

True story.

[Atlantis]

Yes, maybe the comparison between Jag and 32X is the most proper, and yes it is very depressing to compare them and yes the fact that 32X sold 6 times more in lesser time is really depressing.

I think the arrogant, rude and aggressive "do the math" and "cave" campaign really backfired and made a fool out of Atari, provoking every game critic to prove them wrong - an easy target, for sure. Aggressiveness is desperate in itself, and only shows that you're out of control and weak trying to "scare" people into respect with technical comparisons as did Neo Geo with their aggressive hot dog campaign. But Neo Geo, compared to NES and Genesis sure was a beast. Had they skipped the aggressive "do the math" and skipped the 64-bit ambition, just being a Atari console nothing more nothing less, things could have been more humble and worked a little better.

In the end consoles and video game companies had to die back in the 90's, when the experience changed and Atari among others just were the "victims of change". (As with Wii U today trying to pull off the same trick as with Wii with only better graphics.) The console market sure is grim and depressing.

Edited July 9, 2015 by Atlantis

[sd32]

OK, so the Saturn is more advanced than the Jaguar on many levels. But the Saturn has a big weakness... transparency effects. Its VDP2, in charge of backgrounds, can do them fine. But VDP1, which is in charge of sprites/polygons cant. All this resulted on the Saturn trademark mesh effects in 3d games, and even in some 2d games, depending on the situation. Some games, like Sonic R, Burning Rangers, etc, used the VDP1 and VDP2 combo to create some interesting transparency effects, but never in the level of say, a Playstation.

 

3DO, an overall weaker machine than Saturn, did use transparency effects in a bunch of games, and looked really nice.

 

So, how about the Jaguar?. I remember the HUD in AVP, the car windows in Club Drive, and some stuff in Native being transparent...and thats all i remember. I think Missile Command 3D used mesh effects similar to Saturn, but i am no sure, havent played it in a long time. Can anyone come with other samples of transparency effects on the Jaguar?. Did Jaguar hardware help in anyway with it, or was it as bad as the Saturn?

Edited July 10, 2015 by sd32

[Otto1980]

as you maybe know.. you can calculate (nearly) everything with the jag.. some with hardwaresupport (like Blitter,GPU stuff) some with GPU commands via routines..

in theory you can do the newest texture filters on the jag.. but then you have 0,001 frames per second or something

 

the window in clubdrive is a simple blitter modification i think.. (take a shape and calculate its colors to some value darker)

same on native.. take the background and do a blitt with the foregroundimage.. or something like that

 

maybe there is an ObjectProcessor trick for doing transparent.. but i dont know about that.

anyone else?

 

compared whit 3do, the 3do got hardwaresupported full transparent effect

.. the jag can do it also.. but has to calculate it by feet :-( wich coult maybe cause to much time in games

Edited July 10, 2015 by Otto1980