The Atari Jaguar Game by Game Podcast

[+Biff Burgertime]

  

1 hour ago, JagChris said:

I was introduced to the Rayman conspiracy theory around 2003 when I 1st got my own internet connection.

 

Edited July 12, 2022 by Buffalo Biff Burgertime

[Jag64]

9 hours ago, JagChris said:

 

... So would I ever say that the Rayman conspiracy definitely happened? Absolutely not. ...

It happened. Who knows exactly how, but it did. Knowing what we know now about how the Tramiels treated third-party partners, you have to wonder how hard it was for Sony to convince Ubisoft to do it. The game started life on Atari ST, so movement to the Jaguar was simple. Except now we know it wasn't with development environments (game engines today) basically broken, duct-taped together, or non-existent. And heaven forbid devs have talked to each other back then (looking at you, Mike Fulton ?).

 

Sony came out of the gate with dev tools, examples, open communication, financial incentives and support. It was ruthless and still is, just like Nintendo. The Tramiels (I hate sullying the good Atari name due to that family's actions) provided none of that. They relied on the good nature and passion of European devs and consumers that didn't know Atari was already dead in North America. Ubisoft may have just been one of the last ones to realize they'd never get paid by the Tramiels or sell enough copies on the Jaguar, because again, the Tramiels couldn't even manufacture enough consoles for launch, because they'd screwed over so many people in the industry, no one would give them credit, even with interest.

 

tl;dr Sure Sony wanted the Jaguar version slowed down. It's business. And business is war. Sony just realized that in war, you have to pay your allies. Jack Tramiel never realized that. It's why he lost the war.

Edited July 12, 2022 by Jag64

[Lostdragon]

10 hours ago, JagChris said:

I've listened to the 1st hour of the podcast for Rayman. 

 

As usual it's excellent. 

 

However I'm going to have to disagree with him about him being so certain that the conspiracy theory where Sony paid off Ubisoft to withhold the jaguar version of Rayman in favor of the PlayStation version didn't happen.

 

I remember following Rayman in the magazines when it was rumor to be an exclusive title. It was announced being nearly complete and ready to ship when the Sony and Saturn versions were announced. as having been started. Then the Jag version disappeared from the media for better part of a year.  I never thought much about it.

I was introduced to the Rayman conspiracy theory around 2003 when I 1st got my own internet connection. I can't remember which website I've read it from one of the old websites that is no longer around now But among things were developer comments on the jaguar hardware what they liked about it. To my surprise I thought it would have been the blitter but instead what most did was praise the object processor for it's power. 

Here among the discussions was how Microsoft had paid off a company to withhold a racing game for the PSX until the Xbox version was ready. Then they remarked it serves Sony right for what they did to the Atari Jaguar in paying off Ubisoft to withhold Rayman.

We know that lowly Zoop was gimped graphically in favor of the PlayStation version. And though some argue the developer didn't know where that order came down from the only thing that makes sense is Sony orchestrating that. 

If they did that to Zoop which no one remembers, just imagine what Rayman ranked, a obviously huge franchise then and now. Someone will say Sony wouldn't have bothered because 2D wasn't their business model. Well ZOOP certainly didn't fit into their 3D business model and someone certainly made sure that one was gimped on the Jag in favor of the PlayStation version.

I believe the podcast mentions the developer saying something about they were fine tuning and fixing bugs in the Jag version that was a responsible for the delay.

1. I doubt anybody in that industry is going to confess to being bought off to hurt a smaller company. Yeah we can be bought. That's our integrity.

Or throw their HUGE business partner under the bus that they still do business with and announce that it practices monopolistic business dealings to hurt smaller businesses.

2. It's awfully curious the completion of the bug fixes and tune ups coincided right about the time that the Sony version was finished. Not 3 months before or 2 month afterwards. What a coincidence. 

 

3. The gameplay in the jag is different than the other 2 versions The obviously weren't being developed concurrently

 

Another insider:

 

Gorilla Jones

When I put to him the rumor that Rayman for the Jag was held back due to Sony's deep pockets and it was even confirmed by the developer that lowly ZOOP for the Jag was told to be graphically gimped in favor of the PSX his response:

 

So would I ever say that the Rayman conspiracy definitely happened? Absolutely not. I don't know that. I will say that based on the evidence what I've heard and seen it's what most likely happened and no-one has told me anything that would swing the percentage of that likelihood in my mind the other way..

I haven't yet listened to the podcast, but the supposed Rayman Conspiracy was discussed at great length back in 2015 on here and multiple sources used, among the key factors that came up.. 

 

 

Michel Ancel told Gamestm, in an interview, back in Issue 11: 'When we did the original Rayman, Sony was telling us it was'nt the right style for the current trend'.

 

 

The games full  development path:ST-SNES-Jaguar-PS1 and reasons why it was moved to PS1 (far more powerful, easier to code for, CD storage perfect for storing games giant textures etc etc):

 

http://www.retrogamer.net/retro_games90/the-making-of-rayman/

 

 

Official statement' from Ubisoft's Frank Slater at the time, had him explaining that as this was Ubisoft's 1st title on a then unfamilar platform, there was a learning curve which meant delays, these delays were not intentional, were'nt due to any strategic implications and had nothing what so ever to do with other versions now being annouced/planned.

 

And as for Jaguar Zoop being gimped, again done and discussed, it was myself who contacted those involved and once more for clarity, the response given :

 

 

 

 

"When we were doing the port, our artists (my brother Adam and a chap called Steve Field) came up with a more high resolution set of graphics that enhanced the game on the Jaguar vs the original PC version. (upside of porting to consoles, you’ve got a specific amount of memory and known chipset to work with, so you can optimise and design to use it all )

From what I remember, the improved version was passed on for Hookstone (who we were doing the port for) to ok and apparently they liked it, but then we were told we had to stick with the original artwork as the upcoming Playstation port had to look the best of the bunch. I can’t confirm if this came down from Sony or Viacom specifically as I wasn’t in management.
I know someone who *might* be able to confirm either way, but I’m not sure if he would as there may be some lingering NDA/conflict of interest, but I’ll ask and see what he says

Aaron

Aaron Fothergill"

 

Aaron going off memory bless him, rumour couldn't be confirmed. 

 

Rayman and Zoop developed and published by very seperate entites, very different genres. 

 

 

It's not really a case of some arguing, Aaron honestly didn't know the background to rumours as he wasn't placed to do so. 

 

 

Edited July 12, 2022 by Lostdragon

[youxia]

1 hour ago, Jag64 said:

Who knows exactly how, but it did.

Lol...this could be The Internet's motto. Why bother with facts (or the lack of them) when you can just say something is or is not true, and there will always be somebody on the net to believe it?

[Jag64]

37 minutes ago, youxia said:

Lol...this could be The Internet's motto. Why bother with facts (or the lack of them) when you can just say something is or is not true, and there will always be somebody on the net to believe it?

Hard to argue with reality. Game started as a Jaguar exclusive. Was slowed down and ended up on the Playstation. There is literally no debating this. It would take the most inbred moron to contest documented reality.

 

Now what made it happen, who knows? We've gotten several different stories. Is it even worth weeding through and trying to figure out? Because here's what we know, it happened. It was a Jag exclusive. It's development slowed. It landed on the PS1 (and later Saturn). The Tramiel company was already cold-shouldering devs. People were already not getting paid by this point. Was that why? The reasons why are fun for conversation, but it happened. Can't stress enough just how much of a ****ing idiot a person would have to be to contest any of those proven facts. But I bet somewhere out there, there is, lol. Somewhere.

Edited July 12, 2022 by Jag64

[Shinto]

10 hours ago, JagChris said:

However I'm going to have to disagree with him about him being so certain that the conspiracy theory where Sony paid off Ubisoft to withhold the jaguar version of Rayman in favor of the PlayStation version didn't happen.

Hi, JagChris!  Thank you for your detailed post.  I don't doubt that the gaming industry was -- and still is -- rife with backstabbing and subterfuge, with heavy hitters throwing their weight (and money) around.  I might have given more credence to the Rayman conspiracy theory if not for the comments from Yves Guillemot and Frank Slater, which I mentioned in the episode.  These are people whom I found to be credible, in a position to know, who had logical and believable reasons why the schedule played out as it did.

 

Another thing I mentioned, but probably should have spent more time on, came from the RayWiki:

Quote

This versions[sic] also includes a different type of gendoor which can spawn multiple enemies at random. This was not included in the final game due to the newly made multi-platform engine only allowing a set amount of objects per level, unlike the Jaguar engine which allows objects to be spawned in after the level has been loaded.

This sounds to me like Ubisoft ripped out a chunk of the Jaguar code and replaced it with an engine that was common across the platforms.  It would have made cross-platform development easier, but definitely would have set the Jaguar version's release back a fair bit.  In that respect, it could be said that the Jaguar version was effectively delayed due to the other ports, but for development reasons rather than bribery.

Another thing worth mentioning is that Ubisoft put more people on the Playstation version, 16 more developers according to MobyGames, likely in an effort to get the game out as close to the Playstation console launch as possible, as Yves Guillemot said.

 

Haven't looked into Zoop! at all yet.  It's one of the very last games I'll be covering on the podcast (going in part number order), so I'll have to keep your post in mind when I get there.  If I remember.  It'll be a while.

[youxia]

26 minutes ago, Jag64 said:

The reasons why are fun for conversation, but it happened.

Well, as I was saying...? Who needs boring reasons when you can just say "it happened!" (!@#$ Tramiels)?

[JagChris]

5 hours ago, Shinto said:

This sounds to me like Ubisoft ripped out a chunk of the Jaguar code and replaced it with an engine that was common across the platforms.  It would have made cross-platform development easier, but definitely would have set the Jaguar version's release back a fair bit.  In that respect, it could be said that the Jaguar version was effectively delayed due to the other ports, but for development reasons rather than bribery.

 

Where do you get that from that quote? To me that doesn't say or even imply chunks of the Jaguar code were replaced at the last minute.

[Shinto]

59 minutes ago, JagChris said:

Where do you get that from that quote? To me that doesn't say or even imply chunks of the Jaguar code were replaced at the last minute.

Sure, happy to elaborate.  The Jaguar prototype version(s) have a type of gendoor which, according to RayWiki, was "not included in the final game due to the newly made multi-platform engine."  If this random-enemy-spawning gendoor was in the Jaguar prototype but not the final release, then it must have been removed as they transitioned the Jaguar to the multi-platform engine.  Such a transition would obviously mean taking out what was there and putting in something different.  So the real question is, did the Jaguar move to the multi-platform engine as the RayWiki indicates?

 

If there's any point in Jaguar Rayman where random enemies are spawned in after the level has loaded, then that would prove the Jaguar is not running that multi-platform engine after all.  The closest I can think of would be the flower tentacle which spits out enemies, but this baddie behaves very much the same in the Playstation version, which would certainly be using the multi-platform engine.

 

It's also possible that the Jaguar's fancy random post-hoc gendoor thing was simply hobbled or disabled for the final release, but I consider that to be less likely because of other platform-specific differences (like the Candy Chateau and all its unique assets), which indicate that Ubisoft was not afraid to have the Jaguar go a different way.  See also the ArcadeAttack interview with Frederic Houde where he said he was making changes to the Jaguar version, changes which didn't get applied to the others.  Having but not using a nifty feature like this would be a shame, and somewhat out of character.

 

Given these observations, it seems plausible to me that the Jaguar version was moved to the multi-platform engine in the midst of development.  This wouldn't have been last-minute, but would have taken place around the time that development of the other platforms was ramping up, so I guess I'd put it in the late '94/early '95 timeframe.

[JagChris]

1 hour ago, Shinto said:

Sure,  So the real question is, did the Jaguar move to the multi-platform engine as the RayWiki indicates?

 

Well the Wiki itself says unlike the Jaguar version. So that would mean no and it was gendoor or whatever was disabled later.

 

But it's a Wiki and you can't really trust them for accuracy. 

 

In one of these interviews the original Rayman Jag programmers had to fight to get the Jag version released. Ubi Soft wasn't going to do it.

 

Why would a company invest time/resources at the last minute  in a version they aren't going to release?  It's less likely to me than that it was shelved for 7 months and by the time the Tramiels had done their damage with a little help from the Yakuza the writing was on the wall. 

 

I'm sure the two coders are very nice and it's a plausible story. That would be the point. But even the Zoop coder was worried about NDAs some almost 30 years later.

 

Also the story came from somewhere, with Sony's name attached to it. No one else's. They didn't point the finger at Sega, Nintendo or anyone else, just Sony.  30 years later the same name still popping up from other people in similar directions. Sony. Not Nintendo. Not anyone else, just Sony. 

 

That's a lot of smoke for there to be no fire. 

Edited July 12, 2022 by JagChris

[Shinto]

1 hour ago, JagChris said:

Well the Wiki itself says unlike the Jaguar version. So that would mean no and it was gendoor or whatever was disabled later.

Yeah, that's one way to interpret it.  Another way would be that when they say "the Jaguar engine" they're referring to the Jaguar prototype's engine, since that's the topic of the section, and is also mutually exclusive with "not included in the final game" earlier in the same sentence.  But who knows.  It would have been nice if they had cited a source.

 

1 hour ago, JagChris said:

Why would a company invest time/resources at the last minute  in a version they aren't going to release?

Oh, I have horror stories there.  The sheer amount of software development money I've seen flushed down the toilet at the last minute is staggering.  Frustrating, too, if you're one of the developers.  But that's not necessarily germane to the topic at hand, which should probably move to the Rayman Conspiracy thread.

 

Thank you for the vigorous discussion.  Hopefully you liked the Rayman episode aside from the conspiracy bit.

[Jag64]

19 hours ago, youxia said:

Well, as I was saying...? Who needs boring reasons when you can just say "it happened!" (!@#$ Tramiels)?

Thank you for proving my point. Some people are scared of looking like a fool publicly; I appreciate that you aren't. ?

Edited July 13, 2022 by Jag64

[Lostdragon]

14 hours ago, JagChris said:

 

Well the Wiki itself says unlike the Jaguar version. So that would mean no and it was gendoor or whatever was disabled later.

 

But it's a Wiki and you can't really trust them for accuracy. 

 

In one of these interviews the original Rayman Jag programmers had to fight to get the Jag version released. Ubi Soft wasn't going to do it.

 

 

Have you got a link to the interview in question? 

 

I've seen you reference it at least 3 times on here over the years, but i am still not 100% sure who exactly is making the claims, you say original Jaguar programmers had to fight to get it released... 

 

You heard a story from the coders.. 

 

But I can't see any links to the actual source, nor can I find the claim being made by any of the team in interviews online. 

 

Can you remember where and when you saw them? 

 

The  claim flies in the face of every statement from Ubisoft at the time i have seen. 

 

 

For example :

 

' The good news is Rayman is coming soon to a Jaguar near you - - before it

comes to any other system. Expect to be playing one of the most graphically

eye-popping, amazingly fun and challenging platform games ever made by

June.

 

Rayman is also being developed for other next-generation systems including

the PSX and the Saturn, for a summer 1995 release in Japan and release in

the rest of the world as soon as those systems become available outside of
the land of the rising sun.

 

There is a PSX demo version out in Japan right now, perhaps this is where some of the confusion came from.

 

Hope this clears things up some.

Frank Slater

Ubi Soft France'

 

If we can read the interview for ourselves, we can put it in far greater context. 

Ubisoft had at one point annouced a 3DO version of Rayman, but dropped the idea in favour of a 32X version, which they felt had a greater chance of commercial success, before dropping that version. 

 

 

Looking at Retro Gamer Magazine  Load 90, 'The Making Of:Rayman':

 
Michel Ancel talks of not doing Rayman on:

 

The Atari ST, as interest in that format was starting to wane and  the SNES, as he thought it'd struggle with the huge amount of data he wanted to put into the game.

 

So it was decided to move it to the SNES CD, this was scrapped, so he moved it to the Jaguar, as he felt it was the best console (at that time) capable of displaying the graphics he/the team wanted to do.

 

All very sensible claims. 
 

He also said: that the playstation was more powerful than Jaguar, easier to code for and the CD capacity was ideal for storing games giant textures..

 

 

..That the game took far longer than planned (2 years) as the constant change of hardware, from 1 console to another, proved to be by far the biggest technical issue the team faced.

 

 

Which ties in with the other Ubisoft statement from Ubisoft's Frank Slater at the time, where he  explained  that as this was Ubisoft's 1st title on a then unfamilar platform, there was a learning curve, delay crept in, these delays were not intentional, were not  due to any strategic implications and had nothing what so ever to do with other versions now being annouced/planned.

 

 

If you have the likes of Ancel etc putting counter claims to Slater, I would be very interested to see them and I am sure Shinto would appreciate them, so they can be added to the archives for his podcast entry. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 13, 2022 by Lostdragon

[Lostdragon]

13 hours ago, Shinto said:

Yeah, that's one way to interpret it.  Another way would be that when they say "the Jaguar engine" they're referring to the Jaguar prototype's engine, since that's the topic of the section, and is also mutually exclusive with "not included in the final game" earlier in the same sentence.  But who knows.  It would have been nice if they had cited a source.

 

Oh, I have horror stories there.  The sheer amount of software development money I've seen flushed down the toilet at the last minute is staggering.  Frustrating, too, if you're one of the developers.  But that's not necessarily germane to the topic at hand, which should probably move to the Rayman Conspiracy thread.

 

 

Your research has alway been exemplary and if there was any fresh evidence to add to the old Rayman Conspiracy thread, I would of put good money on you finding it. 

 

Hopefully, JagChris can find and share the interview he refers to, but it itself might simply be a case of the individual pointing out given the dire commercial straits the Jaguar found itself in by the time Rayman was ready, Ubisoft had serious doubts the platform was still commercially viable and were reluctant to risk publishing it, especially given the costs involved in cartridge production runs. 

 

So far, the conspiracy talk here has just been a recount of what was discussed years and years ago. 

 

I'll be listening to your podcast and giving feedback on it later. 

 

Huge thanks for continuing to make these. 

[JagChris]

Its an old interview in one of the French sites in pretty sure. I think it had to be translated to English. I'll keep an eye out for it. However since I am not sure how to find it again ignore the statement as a hearsay until it can be found. 

 

Either way I can't see them rebuilding the engine at the last minute. introduce all new bugs etc. If it was you think they'd make the gameplay like the PSX version. But it's possible.

 

Use the new portable engine going forward on the other ports and have them finish up the Jag version. 

 

But with the new stuff always popping up to point the finger at Sony such as Gorilla Jones the possibility the conspiracy is real gets more likely to me.

 

Anyways those are my thoughts laid out. I'm out until someone can produce something to make me think otherwise. Or I find that old interview.

[Lostdragon]

9 minutes ago, JagChris said:

Its an old interview in one of the French sites in pretty sure. I think it had to be translated to English. I'll keep an eye out for it. However since I am not sure how to find it again ignore the statement as a hearsay until it can be found. 

 

Either way I can't see them rebuilding the engine at the last minute. introduce all new bugs etc. If it was you think they'd make the gameplay like the PSX version. But it's possible.

 

Use the new portable engine going forward on the other ports and have them finish up the Jag version. 

 

But with the new stuff always popping up to point the finger at Sony such as Gorilla Jones the possibility the conspiracy is real gets more likely to me.

 

Anyways those are my thoughts laid out. I'm out until someone can produce something to make me think otherwise. Or I find that old interview.

I'm just looking at the links of Shinto's site. 

 

 

https://jaguar--64bit-pagesperso--orange-fr.translate.goog/FrenchTouch/indexUbi.htm?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp

 

 

This one was a new one to me, but the individual just states Rayman was the only Jaguar title Ubisoft had planned, once Sony and Sega saw it, they wanted versions on their platforms. 

 

 Expetience has shown  industry sources can often change accounts when talking about commercial game development and reasons for a games delay, cancellation can change depending on when interviewed, blame tends to shift etc. 

 

The more information from those involved in coding, publishing Jaguar Rayman that can be found, archived, the better, so much is being lost these days, but as it stands, everything so far seems to point to what i alluded to earlier. 

 

By the time Rayman was ready to go into production, the writing was clearly on the wall, the Jaguar wasn't a commercially viable platform and to recoup development costs, Ubisoft had to get it out on multiple platforms and Sega and Sony were willing to accommodate it, Sony maybe needing more convincing than Sega, given their 3D focus for the platform, but came around to the idea and the title sold exceptionally well on the PlayStation. 

 

 

[Jagosaurus]

Looking forward to the episode!

 

I find Shinto's software engineer logic around the code, engine, & timeline logical (pun intended).

 

The conspiracy theory is fun though. Timed exclusives, higher res assets, etc all still "strategically" happen today.  

[troff]

I am currently making my way through this XXL sized episode.

 

And, as always, I am enjoying it immensely.  This podcast is always top-notch, and worth the wait, no matter how long.

 

Rayman is a game I've always wanted to get for the Jaguar, but the cart is a little out of my price range.

[Lostdragon]

On 7/10/2022 at 5:08 PM, Shinto said:

At long last, the Rayman episode is complete!  It's been over a year in the making, and is over four hours in the listening, but I hope you find it informative and entertaining and reasonably accurate.

 

Next up will be an out-of-sequence episode covering RetroHQ's Jaguar GameDrive, so if you have any thoughts you'd like to share in the episode, please post here, DM me, or e-mail jaguar@gamebygamepodcast.com.  Thank you as always for listening!

Properly into this one tonight, so around the 2 hr mark, you talk of running Colour Code tests on various screens and at best, finding them using only 8,000 colours, the average seems to be between 2 and 3,000 colours. 

 

 

 

The Jaguar version has always been held in such high regard due to it's apparent use of 65,000 colours.. 

 

 

So has this been an absolute myth for all these years?? 

 

Box claimed 65,000 colours. 

 

I'm very confused now. 

 

?

Edited July 14, 2022 by Lostdragon

[Zerosquare]

65.000 (65.536 actually) is the color bit depth, not the amount of unique colors per screen.

[Lostdragon]

6 hours ago, Zerosquare said:

65.000 (65.536 actually) is the color bit depth, not the amount of unique colors per screen.

Thank you for the explanation. 

 

Even in more recent times, i have seen reviewers where it claimed the Jaguar version had twice as many colours on screen (65000 vs 32000) compared to both the Saturn and PlayStation versions and thus the Jaguar version was the best. 

 

Things are a lot clearer now. 

[TrekMD]

I finally finished listening to the Rayman episode.  Another excellent episode, Shinto! 

[+cubanismo]

On 7/14/2022 at 6:06 PM, Zerosquare said:

65.000 (65.536 actually) is the color bit depth, not the amount of unique colors per screen.

Yes, I would find it rather odd if any game actually used every color in it's representable range in a given screen, or even in the entire game once things got beyond palette-based images. Still, I found this part of the episode interesting, and just take it as proof the game used 16-bit color rather than the next step down (8-bit/256 colors via a lookup table AKA palette).

[agradeneu]

26 minutes ago, cubanismo said:

Yes, I would find it rather odd if any game actually used every color in it's representable range in a given screen, or even in the entire game once things got beyond palette-based images. Still, I found this part of the episode interesting, and just take it as proof the game used 16-bit color rather than the next step down (8-bit/256 colors via a lookup table AKA palette).

A painted 16 bit color background has around 2000-4000 colors. And that is quite an high number of sim. colors.

For a pixel art sprite, 48-64 colors are very high numbers too. 

 

 

So yes, the 65.000  represent the color space or range.

 

I think Jeff Minter uses/shows almost whole range of colors in the Virtual Light Machine.

 

As for Rayman, I  guess that it works with a mix of 8 bit and 16 bit sprites/bitmaps/tiles.

 

 

 

Edited July 31, 2022 by agradeneu

[Jagosaurus]

@Shinto

The Rayman episode was great. I always enjoy the history of the development teams, but this one was especially interesting.

 

I started going back through some older episodes while driving & came across the section in Episode 01 where you covered the Denver Atari shop, Horizon Computers. You mentioned having that owner's info still on file. I think that would be a fun interview to hear his side of the store & interfacing with Atari.

 

I've been fortunate to work in the tech space for the past decade or so & I did once run across a guy who started out as an Atari reseller or VAR as we call them nowadays. I had so many questions lol...

 

Also, I finally made the switch from Stitcher's platform to Spotify on a new phone so you migh've lost your only Stitcher audience member that was still left over there 😝... but now the issues I was experiencing with new episodes are gone. Happy to be back.

Edited August 10, 2022 by Jagosaurus
typos