Soulbuster's Non-Variant List of Homebrew Games Released

[+cmart604]

set a daily reminder in your phone to keep it fresh in your mind come october.

Super good idea.

[Utopia]

OK, so far the consensus is to list them separately?

 

I agree

Maybe not,

This list has D2K Arcade, D2K Arcade special edition, and Donkey Kong Arcade listed as 3 separate games.

DKA was released by 2 different publishers and they were - by definition different versions and yet they are bundled together in the same descriptive version but in reality we have 5 Donkey Kongs (or do we)?. Enough already!

Are they not ALL the one game?

We have the different versions of 4tris and Minehunter bundled together on this list and yet they are different as the programing changes.

At the end of the day we can decide for ourselves on what is a true "game" and what is a "variation" - And what is the definitive list.

How many DK's do we have as true game versions? ....I'm at a loss.

Edited May 8, 2016 by Utopia

[+DZ-Jay]

So you would have DK Arcade, D2k Arcade and D2K Arcade SE as a single Line?

 

Anyone else have thoughts?

 

It's interesting that you bring DK Arcade and D2K into the question, sort of like a strawman argument.

 

I think there is enough distinction between DK Arcade and D2K, like a sequel. I do not think the same between D2K and D2K SE. I think that's just a money grab and intended to milk the community. But your mileage may vary.

 

-dZ.

Edited May 8, 2016 by DZ-Jay

[freewheel]

We have the different versions of 4tris and Minehunter bundled together on this list and yet they are different as the programing changes.

At the end of the day we can decide for ourselves on what is a true "game" and what is a "variation" - And what is the definitive list.

How many DK's do we have as true game versions? ....I'm at a loss.

 

Your phrasing made me wonder - perhaps this could be tracked the same way ROM variants are. Yes, they're noted as being "distinct", but it's basically Super Mario Bros V1.0, Super Mario Bros V2.0, etc. Minor programming changes make it the same game. Box/printed material changes make it the same game. Changing a screen or two makes it the same game game. Overhauling the entire graphics/physics/sound engine? Different game.

 

So you end up with one entry for DK, with 3 sub-variants. Exactly the same as you would with the others you mention.

[intellivotion]

(...)

We have the different versions of 4tris and Minehunter bundled together on this list and yet they are different as the programing changes.

(...)

...uhmm... does the Elektronite version of Minehunter differentiate from the IntelligentVision one only for the initial splash screen or is there something else I didn't notice? I believed they were exactly the same, except the Elektronite splash screen

[Utopia]

...uhmm... does the Elektronite version of Minehunter differentiate from the IntelligentVision one only for the initial splash screen or is there something else I didn't notice? I believed they were exactly the same, except the Elektronite splash screen

I thought there was some subtle changes in the graphics (explosions?) but I could be wrong, essentially however it's the same game.

[+intvsteve]

IMO, things like "running changes" and small tweaks are, by definition, ROM variants. This can apply across publishers. I'm not familiar with the changes to Minehunter between IntelligentVision and Elektronite aside from title screen, but I'd consider those ROM variants. Same with 4-Tris: Philly Classic, Zbiciak Electronics, IntelligentVision and LTO are all ROM variations, with some small changes for title screens, possibly even Easter Eggs, etc. The Lost Caves of Kroz has a running change, so there are two ROM variants of that - nothing significantly changed.

 

We've even seen this with the original titles, though in a more organic and possibly even accidental way. Auto Racing, Space Battle, Math Fun, Armor Battle, and likely many other titles underwent small changes and possibly even flip-flopped when Intellivision, Inc. made more carts later.

 

To me, it's still astonishing how much "power" the Donkey Kong title wields, after all these years, and on Intellivision, no less! Think about it… When ColecoVision hit the market, Donkey Kong was IT. It was the hottest game in the arcades, and the "killer app" for the newest console. It almost didn't matter if it was a less-than-great version of the game for Intellivision or the VCS - it was there! Fans of Intellivision were naturally disappointed with the quality of the game, considering the contemporaneous titles offered up from Mattel, Imagic, and Activision.

 

Decades later, Carl smashes our preconceived notions of how good Donkey Kong could have been with his version. Clearly there's pent-up demand for seeing this game done right - we get the IntelligentVision release and the inaugural cart-only DK Arcade from Elektronite. Later, there's the full boxed release. I'm still a bit unsure of the precise differences between these three, but they seem to be of the 'ROM variant' category. Going from memory is always a shady deal these days, as we age, so I'm sure someone will offer up corrections.

 

D2K Arcade is absolutely an entirely new game, and it just happens to include DK Arcade as well - a definite bonus for people who were unable to get DK Arcade.

 

D2K Arcade Special Edition is possibly the first title that makes the decision to categorize the game as "different enough" to warrant being a separate game somewhat difficult. We don't have a cold, measurable metric to decide this, e.g. "what percentage of code must be new" to constitute a "new game".

 

If we try to apply the simple approaches we've taken in the past to D2KSE to determine if it's "different enough", what do we find? In D2K (and I'm sure I'll be corrected for inaccuracies) we have a partial port of Jumpman Returns, with 3 of the 5 levels, but one level unique to Intellivision. It also contains the DK Arcade game. In the D2KSE we presumably get the two levels from Jumpman Returns that were not in D2K, and I'm not sure if we get other levels besides. And rather than including DK Arcade, it includes the original D2K.

 

Those are substantive differences. Given the more elaborate nature of the levels in Jumpman Returns as compared to the original Donkey Kong, how different are these two new levels compared to others already in the previous D2K cart? I'm not well-informed on Jumpman Returns. If the mechanics in the new levels are notably different, then the development effort to pull them off may have been quite a challenge. Does anyone know why the two levels not in D2K were left out? Was it cartridge space? Time? Difficulty to implement?

 

Guessing at the motivations behind the release is not (to me) a constructive exercise, nor germane to how we categorize the release, IMO.

[+DZ-Jay]

Guessing at the motivations behind the release is not (to me) a constructive exercise, nor germane to how we categorize the release, IMO.

 

I think it is, though, because it opens up a can of worm that promotes abuse and exploitation. I believe this is precisely the motivation behind it. If this release succeeds (and it probably will), and it is added to the official canon of Intellivision games, then we open up the community to opportunistic parties that will be encouraged to milk a single title over and over and over.

 

This is more than just D2K SE and the immediate supporters. Think about anybody else joining the community and wanting to build up a collection. Facing an "official," community-sanctioned list that includes three or four variations "releases" of the same game, all of which are out of print. What do you think will happen? We have just created yet another shady market for e-Bay speculators to exploit unsuspecting collectors at artificially increased prices (if retail was $150, how much will the "out-of-print collector's item" need to go for?).

 

Treating them as the ROM variants that they are can mitigate this, and attract only those obsessive enough to want every single variant. That's a rather limited market, though, which is why it is in the interest of the producers to market it as an entirely new game.

 

Like I said before, my own game has variations from one release to the next, including one specific variant in which you cannot play to the end, and each may even have different sets of easter eggs; yet I wouldn't dream of considering them separate titles. Even if I were to change the order of the levels, add a couple more, and went full George Lucas on them, I would still consider them the same damn title.

 

Of course, in most cases this is rather obvious and glaring, and like you said, there is no question. This particular case, however, opens itself to discussion precisely because it blurs the lines that have informally being drawn before -- whether intentionally or not.

 

In my opinion, if this were happening back in the 1980s, nobody would consider D2K SE a new title or even a sequel; it would be precisely what it says on the tin: a special edition variant of an existing title, and an attempt to cash in on people who haven't bought the previous version.

 

Anyway that's my opinion, it may be different from yours, but there you go. I don't care either way. I bought DK Arcade and D2K Arcade when they were first released, and I was satisfied with both. It just pains me to see the collector's community being exploited with ever-increasing retail prices and artificially inflated after-market prices. I am part of this community, and even if I feel myself immune to the gotta-collect-them-all mentality, this is not the way I wish the Intellivision Community to be driven.

 

-dZ.

[+Rev]

If Baseball can count as the 125th game for the official count. Then Minehunter, Same Game& robots, and all 5 'donkey kong' games count as seperate entries.

 

end of discussion. rev has spoken. you cant argue this point, you will look like a fool in front of the class.

 

 

 

[note: I am not reading all of you guys comments above. haha]

[+Rev]

wow! look at the difference between Baseball and World Champion Baseball. Its mind blowing!

 

See how the improved the graffix so much. Its amazing folks.

 

Now I know why its the 125th official game.

 

 

 

 

[+Rev]

If Baseball can count as the 125th game for the official count. Then Minehunter, Same Game& robots, and all 5 'donkey kong' games count as seperate entries.

 

end of discussion. rev has spoken. you cant argue this point, you will look like a fool in front of the class.

 

How do I "like" my own comments?????

[+cmart604]

wow! look at the difference between Baseball and World Champion Baseball. Its mind blowing!

 

See how the improved the graffix so much. Its amazing folks.

 

Now I know why its the 125th official game.

 

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6L1sWZCeCgw

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYU4U6X6DqU

You'd better wear a cup to Portland.

[+BBWW]

We have a ton of "Baseball" variants. I count a different box with a a different name as a different release for my collection. I don't need to have all the different BOXES of Venture. They are all the same, but having a CBS in the collection is important to me. I think a collection is not complete without all 3 AtariSoft titles and the INTV Pacman is an important variation. I think the AtariSoft Pacman is one of the 125 not the INTV. It was first!

 

I'm mixed about DK2 SE. I bought one, not sure why...and would have preferred early ones, but it was not important enough for me to be sitting at my computer the minute it was released.

 

I have the IntelligentVision Donkey Kong and am looking for the IntelligentVision Mine Hunter and would like to have both versions of Same Game / Robots, I just have one. I'm lucky to have ONE of the 4-Tris releases and at some point would like to get others than the LTO version I have.

 

I don't see anyone saying anything about the collapsing Lupin Lock & Chase Cart only release? Clearly a ROM variant and released on a Cart! It was never released before?

 

There will always be some disagreement in collecting, for me different box and rom, different release. Except for 4-Tris because I don't have all four.

[Games For Your Intellivision]

D2K Arcade Special Edition clearly offers new game play and is not the 'same game'. If that were the case, the original would not be 'included' on the cartridge. There would only be one game.

 

It isn't a HUGE deal, but it definitely addresses some of the 'mistakes' that the original version had.

 

D2K Arcade was NOT an exact clone of the unofficial arcade game 'D2K Jumpman Returns. Hence, it doesn't even have the same name. It was BASED on the game. It does include a couple of screens from Jumpman Returns but also has three unique to Intellivision screens that include the 'eliminator'. Jumpman Returns does NOT include the eliminator.

 

The reason that Carl made unique to Intellivision screens instead of cloning Jumpan Returns exactly was that he deemed them too difficult to do on the Intellivision. He also didn't bother with the new climbing screen nor the elevator 'How high can you get?' screen, opting to use the original DK Arcade screen.

 

Probably including DK Arcade on D2K Arcade was a 'mistake'. The reason? It seemed that some people tried to frame it as their copy of DK Arcade being 'incomplete' rather than getting DK Arcade as a 'bonus' on the sequel. Carl spoke to me briefly about continuing this 'mistake' on the Special Edition. I encouraged him to include the original D2K Arcade on the cartridge and get rid of DK Arcade. In effect, you could view this in two ways. Either this is a copy of D2K Arcade with a 'bonus' of Jumpman Returns, or it is 'Jumpman Returns' with a 'bonus' of D2K Arcade. Either way, there are two separate versions on the SE cartridge.

 

D2K Arcade Special Edition also includes high score flash support on the cartridge. This means that high scores will still be there when you turn off your machine. You can clear the high score by holding down the clear key on the keypad and waiting until the menu screen appears upon startup.

 

Another thing that was changed was the built in digitized 'voice' has now defaulted to 'ON'. Most people didn't know about the feature, because they didn't bother reading the manual....and when they did, they generally didn't bother enabling it.

 

Carl took the time to add the Jumpman Returns version of the 'climb' and 'How high can you get?' screens for the Special Edition.

 

He also added the two screens from Jumpman Returns that never made it into the original. (I've included only one of them in this message)

 

Despite D2K Arcade selling over 500 copies there is STILL demand for the game. I keep getting requests for it. A used copy of D2K Arcade was recently sold for over $80 on eBay and typically are sold for $100 up.

 

D2K SE makes the game available again. If I had D2K Arcade, I'd probably pass on the release. If I had DK Arcade, but NOT D2K, I'd definitely get this one. It seems to me that this release is for two types of people. Those who missed out on a copy of D2K Arcade, or those who want more of the 'Jumpman Returns' experience on the Intellivision. It isn't 'milking' anyone as they shouldn't feel compelled to buy it. However, the people who do buy it will probably have a game that will increase in value due to the fact that it is very limited. Yes, it is a 'collectible'. Lots of companies do collectible releases. I recently bought Baldur's Gate - Siege of Dragonspear and really really wanted the special edition but the cost was OVER $100 so I didn't get it. I was disappointed that I couldn't get it cheaper. However, I didn't go on the Beamdog forums and say how they were 'milking' customers.

 

If you weren't aware, Carl has health issues that make it VERY painful to program for him. Tim came along and got him to re-visit D2K by PAYING him. I know that the game would not have seen an update otherwise.

 

Regardless of the debate on what price should have been asked for Special Edition, the debate on being the 'same game' is just nonsense in my opinion. If you play it, you will see that it is clearly a new version.

[+DZ-Jay]

Just to be clear, when you and others say that it "clearly offers new game play," do you actually mean "different screens"?

[+Rev]

I'm still not clear on the new screens. What are their names and is there a gameplay vid or gif?

[mr_me]

The first screenshot above is called "the Foundry" in Jeff Kulczycki's D2K version ( http://www.jeffsromhack.com/products/d2k.htm). The other screen that wasn't in Carl's D2K Arcade is Jeff's "the Incinerator". That could be the second new screen in D2K SE but I haven't seen a screenshot or description of the Intellivision version.

Edited May 14, 2016 by mr_me

[mr_me]

I'll also say that if Electronytes DK Arcade has Japanese mode and Intelligentvision DK Arcade does not than they should be thought of as different games and not a rom variation. Japanese mode lets you play all the screens at lower levels; its a different game.

[Games For Your Intellivision]

Just to be clear, when you and others say that it "clearly offers new game play," do you actually mean "different screens"?

 

Of course. The first screen in the 'Jumpman Returns' mode is new. It offers new challenges. I'd have a screen shot of it if I could actually get to the second Jumpman Returns screen. However, I'm not that good of a player.

[Games For Your Intellivision]

The first screenshot above is called "the Foundry" in Jeff Kulczycki's D2K version ( http://www.jeffsromhack.com/products/d2k.htm). The other screen that wasn't in Carl's D2K Arcade is Jeff's "the Incinerator". That could be the second new screen in D2K SE but I haven't seen a screenshot or description of the Intellivision version.

 

I asked Carl to give me a screen shot of the screen that I can't get to. (I have the ROM on my LTO Flash!) I will post it when I get it.

 

I forgot to post the 'How high can you get?' screen.

[Games For Your Intellivision]

I'll also say that if Electronytes DK Arcade has Japanese mode and Intelligentvision DK Arcade does not than they should be thought of as different games and not a rom variation. Japanese mode lets you play all the screens at lower levels; its a different game.

 

The Elektronite version of DK Arcade does have a Japanese mode that was not included on other releases. It also has voice default to 'ON'.

 

The order of the screens is unique, but offers no new screens.

 

I don't have any objections to people lumping all versions of DK Arcade together because the different versions all have the same game play screens. Nor do I have a problem lumping Minehunter from Elektronite in with the original.

 

However, I don't think that it is fair to say that D2K Arcade Special Edition offers nothing new.

[Eric7100]

I'd have a screen shot of it if I could actually get to the second Jumpman Returns screen. However, I'm not that good of a player.

 

Just use a hack like everyone else, and hack your way there...

Edited May 15, 2016 by Eric7100

[Games For Your Intellivision]

 

Just use a hack like everyone else, and hack your way there...

 

I may ask Joe to get the screen for me as Carl's computer died and he lost his old stuff.

[JasonlikesINTV]

 

I may ask Joe to get the screen for me as Carl's computer died and he lost his old stuff.

Oh no! Always back up your files!

 

Note to self, I should probably do this someday...

[+fdr4prez]

 

I may ask Joe to get the screen for me as Carl's computer died and he lost his old stuff.

 

Does that mean his old work on DK Jr Arcade is gone? I was hoping someone would take up the reins on this.