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Intellivision 'Dual Action' Controller...


nurmix

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You really do not have to take every single word I say personally. ;)

 

In this case, I wasn't suggesting that there was no labour or effort involved in the process, but that the technical approach was simple or straightforward enough, which you have confirmed: using two matrices and capture only some signals from each.

 

dZ.

 

You really don't have to be personal or condescending with every word you say. You just choose to.

;)

 

Cheers!

 

Just having some fun with you, Dz.

 

I didn't invent this controller idea, just trying to make it viable for those who are interested.

Edited by nurmix
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It's probably something as mundane as using both controller cables, but one #1 is hooked up to the disc and buttons, and #2 to the keypad only.

Maybe this is something "mundane" to you due to your naturally awesome technical abilities, but for those of us who have regular non-technical day jobs we just want to play games in a better way. :thumbsup:

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You really don't have to be personal or condescending with every word you say. You just choose to.

;)

 

Cheers!

 

Just having some fun with you, Dz.

 

I didn't invent this controller idea, just trying to make it viable for those who are interested.

 

I see that you edited your message from the original one you posted to make it seem a bit more light hearted. I guess you noticed you were being more of a prick than you needed to be here.

 

My original comment wasn't directed at you, wasn't intended to be an insult, and wasn't intended to be personal. There was a lot of speculation and someone even mentioned "witchcraft" in jest, and I was pointing out that the answer was probably a bit more simple, and it was. That it is a technically simple solution does not take away from the effort and technique involved; and vice-versa.

 

Feel free to continue engaging in this argument publicly, like before. I have time.

 

-dZ.

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I see that you edited your message from the original one you posted to make it seem a bit more light hearted. I guess you noticed you were being more of a prick than you needed to be here.

 

My original comment wasn't directed at you, wasn't intended to be an insult, and wasn't intended to be personal. There was a lot of speculation and someone even mentioned "witchcraft" in jest, and I was pointing out that the answer was probably a bit more simple, and it was. That it is a technically simple solution does not take away from the effort and technique involved; and vice-versa.

 

Feel free to continue engaging in this argument publicly, like before. I have time.

 

-dZ.

 

You are correct, sir. I edited it about 30 seconds after I posted it, because I did think it was a bit too mean spirited - well before anyone would have a chance to read it I assumed, so it's kind of irrelevant that I did that. That's sort of the point of an edit feature (second thoughts, forgot something). Anyway...

 

OK, I take you at your word that you weren't trying to be insulting in your original post. It was your choice of the word 'mundane' that put me on the defensive.

 

MUNDANE: common; ordinary; banal; unimaginative.

 

Perhaps, given our track record of arguing in threads here, I misinterpreted your meaning. My apologies.

 

So, on a more positive note... would support of this controller be something that could be easily incorporated into new homebrew games; if it indeed did enhance or improve the game play in some way? I realize now it's useful for TRON Deadly Discs, AD&D Cloudy Mountain, Night Stalker / Ms. Night Stalker, NBA Basketball (if anyone still plays that), and...? But what about a Robotron type game, or something like wongojack mentioned where you hold the controller sideways like an NES pad (not sure my brain could wrap itself around that though, after all the years of conditioning)? Thoughts? Ideas?

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NBA Basketball wouldn't be any good - it's two player only, so you'd be activating player 2's buttons with player 1's disc.

 

I haven't tried a 2-controller approach to Slam Dunk or Slap Shot (in 1-player mode) to see if they would benefit from a dual controller.

Doh! You're right, NBA is 2 player only. I was thinking Slam Dunk. It could be a benefit for passing, but shooting is all side buttons on Slam Dunk.

 

Slap Shot (and NHL) make use of the side buttons for shooting and passing, so nothing gained there.

 

I'd have to go through the list and see what other games could benefit from this very niche controller.

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NBA Basketball wouldn't be any good - it's two player only, so you'd be activating player 2's buttons with player 1's disc.

 

 

Off-topic, but this reminded me of something similar. Anyone who hasn't tried this really needs to: fire up TMNT arcade (or similar 4-player game) in MAME. Map one set of keyboard/joystick controls to ALL 4 players. And go nuts. It's ridiculously fun.

 

Not sure there's anything on the Intellivision that would benefit from this, but it's a blast to try.

 

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So, on a more positive note... would support of this controller be something that could be easily incorporated into new homebrew games; if it indeed did enhance or improve the game play in some way? I realize now it's useful for TRON Deadly Discs, AD&D Cloudy Mountain, Night Stalker / Ms. Night Stalker, NBA Basketball (if anyone still plays that), and...? But what about a Robotron type game, or something like wongojack mentioned where you hold the controller sideways like an NES pad (not sure my brain could wrap itself around that though, after all the years of conditioning)? Thoughts? Ideas?

 

Absolutely easy to do. Development would be a bit tricky, you'd have to custom map your keyboard into the emulator (or just remember what buttons do what). When wongojack mentioned a sideways NES-style controller, at first I shuddered but then realized you'd just have to re-map the direction keys by 90 degrees. You could also fake it in code and then just change for the real console on your final build. A few constants and you're done. But more than one way to skin this cat, regardless.

 

For shits and giggles, it'd be neat. For an actual homebrew release? Given that 10-20 people max would ever own a controller like this, I doubt anyone would spend a ton of time on it. But you never know. Due to the generally simple nature of the platform and my own distaste at having to look at my controller - EVER - I'm a big fan of disc + 1-2 buttons max. So I may be biased. There aren't a lot of game concepts that lend themselves to a dual-stick setup.

 

Different from this, I've pondered the feasibility of a fairly complex strategy game where you use 24 buttons, almost like a full keyboard. If anyone remembers the Atari programming keyboard (which was just 2 of their keypads linked together), I'm thinking something like that. You could have one hell of a complex input setup. Someone would have to build a frame to hold 2 controllers together. Of course most people would just say "use the ECS you dolt" but I like the idea of something that ALL Inty owners can play :)

 

Actually now that I think about it: if you're going the route of Robotron, why not just use 2 discs? You're using both controllers anyway, and coding for 2 discs is as easy as coding for p1 disc + p2 keypad. Arguably simpler, depending on how you do it. Personally I'd find it a lot more comfortable to play - and again, ALL users can play it. Especially if you add on those stick thingies.

 

The "dual action" controller really fits for existing games, but I don't know that I'd recommend it for a new game - maybe someone else can point out the flaws in my thinking here.

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It would be interesting to have two of these and a game that used the other two controller ports on the ECS. Technically it's may not be feasible, but imagine a co-op Robotron / Worm Whomper type game!

Worm Whomper? My ears were ringing ;-)

 

I would LOVE someone to tackle:

Super Pro Worm Whomper: Felton's Revenge!

Edited by JasonlikesINTV
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Off-topic, but this reminded me of something similar. Anyone who hasn't tried this really needs to: fire up TMNT arcade (or similar 4-player game) in MAME. Map one set of keyboard/joystick controls to ALL 4 players. And go nuts. It's ridiculously fun.

 

Not sure there's anything on the Intellivision that would benefit from this, but it's a blast to try.

 

for my future nes pi project the snes/nes controller circuit does 1-4 controllers but in linux it is recognized as 1 giant controller so i had to see if retroarch could program 2-4 players to 1 remote. So i had 2 players mapped to the same buttons on one controller. Played street fighter 2 on snes. Basic moves were identical. Got interesting when trying to do special moves. It was good fun trying to kick my own ass.
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OK, I take you at your word that you weren't trying to be insulting in your original post. It was your choice of the word 'mundane' that put me on the defensive.

Most of those arguments can be traced to someone jumping the gun and taking something I said way too personal when it was not warranted (*hint* *hint*), and attacking me. And lo, it's always the same couple of people. :roll:

 

If you then start an ad hominem attack, I will engage.

 

But you seem to have cooled off this time so let's just drop this.

 

So, on a more positive note... would support of this controller be something that could be easily incorporated into new homebrew games; if it indeed did enhance or improve the game play in some way? I realize now it's useful for TRON Deadly Discs, AD&D Cloudy Mountain, Night Stalker / Ms. Night Stalker, NBA Basketball (if anyone still plays that), and...? But what about a Robotron type game, or something like wongojack mentioned where you hold the controller sideways like an NES pad (not sure my brain could wrap itself around that though, after all the years of conditioning)? Thoughts? Ideas?

 

Support in new homebrews can be easily incorporated. If I understand the technology correctly, you just have to read both controllers and scan for different inputs on each.

 

I do have a few concerns about its practicality, though. First, it appears that for every one of these devices, you will have to cannibalize two Flashbacks. Is this true, or do they sell the controllers separately? If so, this seems a bit extreme and wasteful, not to mention expensive.

 

Second, the ergonomics of the Intellivision hand-controllers do not really conduce to using the disc and keypad simultaneously in a comfortable way. (Well, the ergonomics of the controller do not conduce to any use in a comfortable way, but that's another story! :lol:). Because of this, I would imagine the appeal to be rather limited. I'm sure it is significantly better than trying to grapple with two controllers at a time, but I think that technique is not really all that popular.

 

All that said, it sounds like an interesting concept, and it is something that definitely has to be tried in practice to know how well it works.

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PICS!!!

 

Also, you mention "daughterboard" - is there something in the FB controllers I'm not aware of? I haven't taken mine apart; I just assumed they were passive mylar matrices like the originals.

 

I'll get more pictures of the controller soon. I haven't had any time to work on it this week.

 

But yes, there is a small daughterboard that's attached to the circuit matrix. I don't fully understand why they did it this way, it's not necessary for the controller to function, and invites the opportunity for more problems / less reliability. AT Games could have just as easily soldered the wires directly to the pins on the daughterboard connector (instead of soldering those pins to the daughterboard itself), and completely eliminated this board, but they didn't. I'm guessing it was done for manufacturing / ease of assembly purposes; perhaps the matrices were made by one vendor, the connectors / daughtboards by another? Perhaps as wire 'stress relief' since the daughtboard is screwed into the lower controller housing.

 

Anyway, here are a couple pictures of the daughterboard as it is in an unmodified Flashback controller:

 

Flashback_daughterboard.jpg

 

Flashback_daughterboard_2.jpg

Edited by nurmix
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It would be interesting to have two of these and a game that used the other two controller ports on the ECS. Technically it's may not be feasible, but imagine a co-op Robotron / Worm Whomper type game!

 

And each player partially controls some play aspect of the other players? That would be a challenge!

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Most of those arguments can be traced to someone jumping the gun and taking something I said way too personal when it was not warranted (*hint* *hint*), and attacking me. And lo, it's always the same couple of people. :roll:

 

If you then start an ad hominem attack, I will engage.

 

But you seem to have cooled off this time so let's just drop this.

 

Agreed. But isn't that a hallmark of the Intellivision forum?

:D

 

 

Support in new homebrews can be easily incorporated. If I understand the technology correctly, you just have to read both controllers and scan for different inputs on each.

 

I do have a few concerns about its practicality, though. First, it appears that for every one of these devices, you will have to cannibalize two Flashbacks. Is this true, or do they sell the controllers separately? If so, this seems a bit extreme and wasteful, not to mention expensive.

 

Second, the ergonomics of the Intellivision hand-controllers do not really conduce to using the disc and keypad simultaneously in a comfortable way. (Well, the ergonomics of the controller do not conduce to any use in a comfortable way, but that's another story! :lol:). Because of this, I would imagine the appeal to be rather limited. I'm sure it is significantly better than trying to grapple with two controllers at a time, but I think that technique is not really all that popular.

 

All that said, it sounds like an interesting concept, and it is something that definitely has to be tried in practice to know how well it works.

 

Yeah, it's definitely of limited use. It was done more as a proof of concept. That said, once you get used to the new capabilities, it does enhance the aforementioned 'run and gun' games on the platform. You gain a slight speed / maneuverability advantage that isn't possible with a standard controller.

 

And I didn't find it any more uncomfortable than playing with a standard controller. It might be more comfortable, actually, since you can more or less rest your 'shooting' thumb on the keypad and slide it around without lifting your other thumb off the disc.

 

As for cannibalizing 2 Flashback controllers... yeah, that's unfortunate. I picked up several extra controllers from Byte Knight (who is doing the Ultimate Flashbacks), plus I bought quite a few of the units myself, so I have a small supply. But I don't know of a way to get them individually. AT Games never made that a reality; although I suppose that may be something that happens in the future if there's a Flashback 2.

 

EDIT: Also, I chose to use the Flashback controller for three reasons:

 

(1) It's less offensive to 'destroy' one of these than an original controller.

 

(2) The original controllers method of connecting the matrix to the wires is that bulky 'pressure pin' connector... no way to get two of those to fit inside a controller housing.

 

(3) I could have used an Intellivision II controller, but... it's an Intellivision II controller. Enough said!

Edited by nurmix
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And each player partially controls some play aspect of the other players? That would be a challenge!

What I was envisioning is two-player, co-op Robotron type game, in which the dual-action controller on the console was P1, the dual-action controller on the ECS was P2. Each player could use the 'run-n-gun' capability.

Edited by intvsteve
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What I was envisioning is two-player, co-op Robotron type game, in which the dual-action controller on the console was P1, the dual-action controller on the ECS was P2.

 

Gotcha. I was just thinking of the bizarre new play mechanics this could open up for games in general (not necessarily a Robotron type game)... like a random element where what you are controlling switches to what your opponent WAS controlling, then back again? Do you work together or sabotage your opponent's progress when you temporarily control some of HIS assets?

 

Of course you wouldn't necessarily have to have these controllers to do that, but when Rick mentioned NBA Basketball, where you'd be running YOUR players, but passing with your opponent's players... it made me think.

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The thing that made me think of the NES pad idea is that when I play Pinball, I typically hold the controller sideways and I press a button on the top row with 1 thumb and on the bottom row with another to work the flippers. This actually works surprisingly well. On a vertical or horizontal shooter, you could control the disk with a thumb and use your other thumb to push a number on row 1 and/or row 3. I think this would be much easier than repeatedly pressing the side buttons. A Mission X hack could be a first test case.

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It would be interesting to have two of these and a game that used the other two controller ports on the ECS. Technically it's may not be feasible, but imagine a co-op Robotron / Worm Whomper type game!

 

Lots of thought going into that on my end. If I ever get spare time again, and get better at "action" style games, one of the first things I wanna get into is utilizing all 4 controller ports (with graceful fallback to 2 for most users). I was mostly thinking 4 player games, but I also had this thought as well.

 

It certainly would be unique. How many 80s games had 2 player dual-stick controls? :D

 

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I'll get more pictures of the controller soon. I haven't had any time to work on it this week.

 

But yes, there is a small daughterboard that's attached to the circuit matrix. I don't fully understand why they did it this way, it's not necessary for the controller to function, and invites the opportunity for more problems / less reliability. AT Games could have just as easily soldered the wires directly to the pins on the daughterboard connector (instead of soldering those pins to the daughterboard itself), and completely eliminated this board, but they didn't. I'm guessing it was done for manufacturing / ease of assembly purposes; perhaps the matrices were made by one vendor, the connectors / daughtboards by another? Perhaps as wire 'stress relief' since the daughtboard is screwed into the lower controller housing.

 

Oh wow, thanks. I had no idea. To be honest, if the originals were built that way my life would be a lot happier when it comes to repairing old controllers.

 

They probably manufactured them that way because that's kinda how everything is done these days. Much simpler to produce and assemble than the "shove this block of pins down on this mylar and hold it in place while you frantically screw the cover back on". And in my experience anyway, the daughterboard is a lot less likely to fail than the soldering to the connector. But your first guess is almost certainly correct - 2 different manufacturing lines/vendors. The matrices would have been custom jobs from some place that specializes in them, the rest is extremely common. A 9-wire lead to DB9 with a 9 pin connector probably costs 3 cents a piece in bulk. Including the daughterboard. And I don't know if I'm kidding about that price either. China is insane when it comes to that sort of thing. EVERYTHING is built off of those in the Famiclone world.

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Here is the cut keypad-only matrix (this one sits on top of the disc/side-buttons matrix):

 

I kept the traces intact that are needed for circuit continuity, and cut out the ones that were just an end point of a trace, which obviously coincides with the circular disc area. So once assembled and layered with the other matrix, the disc functions the same as it would if only using one matrix.

 

Note: It's not shown in this picture, but I put a piece of thin plastic (like the thickness of a freezer bag) cut to fit between the two layers of the disc area of the cut matrix - just to make certain there aren't any connections made between those layers, and it has the added bonus of making the disc feel a tiny bit more smooth when sliding your thumb around.

 

I'll post some more pictures later.

 

DAC_cut_matrix_2r.jpg

 

DAC_cut_matrix_1r.jpg

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