TMR Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 The Atari 8-bit line came out in 1980 and the C64 in 1982. The Atari 8-bits first appeared in 1979 if memory serves? And today, Apple II systems and disk drives are more reliable than Atari and C64 systems. And the expand-ability of the Apple II remains a huge asset in allowing modern homebrewers to design incredible hardware. Although many of these innovations are possible on other classic systems, the Apple II always presented a simple expansion path, inviting a diversity of uses outside of gaming. i'll happily admit to not knowing much about the Apple II and would be interested to know how far an original early 1980s machine can be taken with modern expansions; my work C64 is a Breadbin with a 6MHz 6502, 16Mb of Commodore-style RAM expansion and 4Mb of GeoRAM, disk images mounted from an SD card, cartridge-based disk fastloader, PS/2 keyboard and mouse support, VGA and that's a single cartridge which just goes in the back, how does that compare? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianoid Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 (edited) I stand corrected, November 1979. Two years is an enormous amount of time in tech. Even back then. And what products are you using with your C64? I'm always up for convenient disk loading stuff. The hardware I have for C64 is one of those non-cartridge SD card adapters/disk emulators. Haven't had the chance to mess around with it. Really looking forward to it. SO MANY fun and unique C64 titles. I've always thought it would be awesome if someone did a game of the day or game of the week twitter feed for those of us with every disk image ever. Curation would help direct us to new and interesting images. I definitely wouldn't say that the hardware currently available is better on any one system. A popular system makes for more new hardware development, and the C64 is massively popular. If anything the Atari 8-bit modern hardware for utilizing disk images is the hardest to get ahold of, outside of the SIO2SD. Perhaps you need nothing else? OR is there an optimal cartridge based solution for Atari 8-bit? I just got an Incognito, but those are hard to get ahold of. For Apple II, we have CF adapters, Rasp Pi adapters, sound cards (we need those because we are SIDless), ethernet adapters, accelerators, copy cards, keyboard adapters, and more. I'm sure there are those things for most vintage PCs, but there is a certain elegance to fitting stuff inside the computer. For example check out Ultimate Micro. The Atari 8-bits first appeared in 1979 if memory serves? i'll happily admit to not knowing much about the Apple II and would be interested to know how far an original early 1980s machine can be taken with modern expansions; my work C64 is a Breadbin with a 6MHz 6502, 16Mb of Commodore-style RAM expansion and 4Mb of GeoRAM, disk images mounted from an SD card, cartridge-based disk fastloader, PS/2 keyboard and mouse support, VGA and that's a single cartridge which just goes in the back, how does that compare? Edited October 8, 2015 by ianoid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Usotsuki Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 I don't think 8 MHz 65SC02s are exactly uncommon on the ][ line, and the Mockingboard is what, 2 AY8910 PSGs? There's all sorts of addon hardware. If I had the money I'd prolly look into a sprite card (TMS9918, like TI99/4a and MSX) and a Mockingboard. There's a few flash drive adapters out there. Ports of classic games to ProDOS make them accessible to people with flash drives more readily than simply slapping disk images on them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianoid Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 I don't think 8 MHz 65SC02s are exactly uncommon on the ][ line, and the Mockingboard is what, 2 AY8910 PSGs? There's all sorts of addon hardware. If I had the money I'd prolly look into a sprite card (TMS9918, like TI99/4a and MSX) and a Mockingboard. I've never seen a sprite card for Apple II for sale. I'd buy it as an oddity, but it would be useless, aside from writing games for myself, since there was never any widespread support for such. Sprites weren't a serious consideration in 1977 for home computers outside of video game consoles, but really make the difference for the VIC-20, which would have just been a cheaper PET without them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesD Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 I think 4MHz Zip chips were popular with hardcore Apple II users back in the day and even faster Zip GS cards once the IIgs was available.The IIc Plus basically had a 4MHz Zip chip from the factory and it has been hacked to 8Mhz or faster.After people mentioned the newer storage systems I remembered that Apple IIs even had hard drives and networks before the C64 came out.A friend of mine even worked on the networking software if I remember right but I can't remember what it was called. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
high voltage Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 As mentioned, it started the computer gaming revolution, and the 'killer-app' terminology: VisiCalc, software selling hardware (A8 had this too, C64 didn't) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkO Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 I think 4MHz Zip chips were popular with hardcore Apple II users back in the day and even faster Zip GS cards once the IIgs was available. The IIc Plus basically had a 4MHz Zip chip from the factory and it has been hacked to 8Mhz or faster. After people mentioned the newer storage systems I remembered that Apple IIs even had hard drives and networks before the C64 came out. A friend of mine even worked on the networking software if I remember right but I can't remember what it was called. Corvus Systems was the one I remembered... MarkO 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adamchevy Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 I'm curious what the best version of the apple 2 is if your looking to get one. So far from what I have read its the Apple IIe . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 And what products are you using with your C64? I'm always up for convenient disk loading stuff. The one i mentioned is a Turbo Chameleon (i forgot to mention a few features like second SID emulation, infra red port for a CDTV controller and a couple of options like RTC and 10mbit network port that i didn't go for personally). It's also able to emulate a number of other machines at an FPGA level including an OCS '020 Amiga, Sinclair Spectrum, Atari 8-bit and i think someone was porting the Apple II core...? Oh... and give it power via USB and it'll be a C64 without the C64 attached. =-) Another option is the 1541 Ultimate 2, it's more a disk drive emulator (and a very good one at that) using micro SD cards or USB drives, but can emulate most utility or game cartridges and optionally a 16Mb RAM expansion. There's optional tape emulation too for those who like the authentic experience of Ocean or Thalamus loaders but i got mine before that was available. There's also the UK1541 but that's more limited and i haven't had a try with one personally to comment, but all three are more complete solutions than the SD2IEC-based options; i was given one of those and use it on my VIC where there aren't many loaders relying on the drive electronics. If anything the Atari 8-bit modern hardware for utilizing disk images is the hardest to get ahold of, outside of the SIO2SD. Perhaps you need nothing else? OR is there an optimal cartridge based solution for Atari 8-bit? I just got an Incognito, but those are hard to get ahold of. i've never found the need for anything past an SIO2SD, although i would like a SIDE2 for the other 800XL... and a VBXE and perhaps an Ultimate 1Mb now i think about it! Both of mine are stock right now and that loses you access to at least some demos and a couple of games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Usotsuki Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 The ideal Apple ][, imo, is the enhanced or platinum (65C02) Apple //e. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted October 9, 2015 Author Share Posted October 9, 2015 (edited) Absolutely right. Each variant of the II series will have its own coffin-corners and will fail to run some oddball bit of software here and there. But we're talking a fraction of a fraction of a percent. And the //e (enh) or Platinum will run the most software with the least fails. And most of the stuff that did fail has been patched or updated anyways. Edited October 9, 2015 by Keatah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlegamer Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 I love C=64, but one of my favorite games of all time, Choplifter, had its origin on Apple ][, so that fits with what ianoid posted. Of course, I prefer the Master System version by Sega, but credit where credit is due. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlsson Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 My random points: 1. I'd agree that the Apple ][ was an important business computer, but the thought of it as a gaming computer still boggles my mind. I know the other year there was an initiative to at least list all Apple ][ games, as a precursor to a possible GameBase. Numbers like 10000 and 16000 titles have been flewn around, but as far as I remember, that listing never even got to 5000 titles, even counting variations on the same game. Also given how expensive the Apple computers were, only the wealthiest of homes could've afforded to buy one to use for playing games. At least over here, Apple computers were priced at unobtainable levels, surely 5 if not 10 times as much as e.g. a C64 even in the mid 80's. 2. The VIC-20 does not have any hardware sprites. The TMS-99xx VDP chips have though, as well as various Atari chips etc. 3. The C64 may not have needed VisiCalc. It had Calc Result instead (shared with the PET, CBM-II and eventually IBM PC) that was just as good, if not even better than VisiCalc. If it hadn't been for the even more advanced Lotus 1-2-3, Calc Result probably would've dominated its share of the software market in 1983-84. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tep392 Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 The Apples were definitely obtainable in the US, as least if you considered a used machine. I bought a lightly used //e in high school around 1984. I don't recall what I paid but I was using money I had saved working part time in a grocery store earning minimum wage, so it couldn't have been too much. But still a poor game machine compared to the other computers available at the time. I already had the Atari for games. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesD Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 My random points: <snip> 1. I'd agree that the Apple ][ was an important business computer, but the thought of it as a gaming computer still boggles my mind. I know the other year there was an initiative to at least list all Apple ][ games, as a .....3. The C64 may not have needed VisiCalc. It had Calc Result instead (shared with the PET, CBM-II and eventually IBM PC) that was just as good, if not even better than VisiCalc. If it hadn't been for the even more advanced Lotus 1-2-3, Calc Result probably would've dominated its share of the software market in 1983-84. Where do you think SSI and other companies that went on to produce software for the C64 got their start? The C64 didn't need Visicalc because it sold largely as a game console. Yes, the C64 had Calc Result and we've all heard of Calc Result and Handic Soft... except me I guess; I've ever heard either name before. There were a lot of spreadsheets that claimed to be "better" than VisiCalc, most just came out about the time Visicalc was being replaced by integrated packages. I don't think Calc Result was much of a standout from what I could tell. Calc Result supports 63 columns x 254 rows just like Visicalc. For the sake of comparison, Dynacalc for OS-9 and the CoCo supports 256x256, supports more commands than Visicalc supports more memory and has integrated graphing capabilities on the CoCo. Visicalc sold over 200,000 copies in it's first two years. It sold over 700,000 copies in 6 years and as many as 1 million total copies according to the Wiki. "In 1981, Software Arts made over $12 million in royalties from VisiCalc." Software Arts was basically sold to Lotus who stopped publishing VisiCalc or it might still be around. And you have to remember, AppleWorks came out in 1984 and went on to be one of the best selling pieces of software of all time on any computer. You can still buy AppleWorks for the Mac. Calc Result is where today? Handic Soft? Really? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Usotsuki Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 One of the few incompatibilities with the Enhanced //e was that One On One will crash if you run it on an Enhanced //e with a Mockingboard. (Firmware bug.) qkumba and I patched that and so the version on my site will work just fine in that configuration (afaict). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkO Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 The Apples were definitely obtainable in the US, as least if you considered a used machine. I bought a lightly used //e in high school around 1984. I don't recall what I paid but I was using money I had saved working part time in a grocery store earning minimum wage, so it couldn't have been too much. But still a poor game machine compared to the other computers available at the time. I already had the Atari for games. I got my ][e, 6 months used for $1200.00 USD, when list price was $1995.00. USD. MarkO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tep392 Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 I got my ][e, 6 months used for $1200.00 USD, when list price was $1995.00. USD. MarkO I think mine was under $1000. It came with 2 floppy's and the monochrome monitor. I later added a printer, 64k 80 column card and modem. I sold the whole setup in 1987 for $500 to help fund a car in college. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nebulon Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 Interestingly, I didn't own any of these three machines, but from what I recall... The Apple II was the best well-rounded machine. The Atari 800 was a very impressive graphics/audio machine. And the C64 deserves mention, since although released quite a while after the A800, it was also a very important graphics/audio system. So I'd pick those three for different reasons. If we're just talking 1970s computers, then the Apple II and the Atari 800 are tied (IMHO). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlegamer Posted October 10, 2015 Share Posted October 10, 2015 This may be of interest to this thread 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkO Posted October 11, 2015 Share Posted October 11, 2015 (edited) I think mine was under $1000. It came with 2 floppy's and the monochrome monitor. I later added a printer, 64k 80 column card and modem. I sold the whole setup in 1987 for $500 to help fund a car in college. That sounds like an excellent price... I have a picture in my Gallery... http://atariage.com/forums/gallery/image/10138-central-hackers-inc-03-nov-1983-1024x1254/ MarkO Edited October 11, 2015 by MarkO 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkO Posted October 11, 2015 Share Posted October 11, 2015 I have never worked with an Atari 400/800 or similar model.. Most of my family purchased the C64, basically for the cost savings, but the Disk System, even being Smart, was a real Drag on productivity.. Personally, I was impressed with the Graphics and Sound... Otherwise, the Apple ][ was a much better all around system.. My dad use the Apple][e from 1983 to 1994 as his main machine... MarkO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlegamer Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 Is there a good Apple ][ emulator? I think that will be the best way for me to go back an experience those games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkO Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 Is there a good Apple ][ emulator? I think that will be the best way for me to go back an experience those games.I use AppleWin on windows.. I have heard good things about Virtual II on the mac.. I use Active GS for ][gs emulation.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Usotsuki Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 AppleWin is great if you're a Windows user. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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