Classic Keyboards -- The Good, The Bad and the just plain Ugly.

[Albert]

I was quite surprised to learn that people are still paying big bucks for 20+ year old IBM Model M keyboards. Nice to think something from that era is still so well regarded. And if I ever get up early enough to go to garage sales, it will be something to keep my eyes out for!

 

There must still be tons of those out there, but who knows what condition they are in now. Plus, they will have PS/2 connectors, which is fine for PCs that still have those connectors, but not as useful on Macs or PCs that only have USB ports. That's one of the reasons I like the Unicomp keyboards, is they are offered in USB, and they even have a Mac-specific version that has the properly labeled Option and Command keys (although this isn't necessary at all, unless you have to look at your keyboard to find these keys.. )

 

..Al

[danny_galaga]

 

There must still be tons of those out there, but who knows what condition they are in now. Plus, they will have PS/2 connectors, which is fine for PCs that still have those connectors, but not as useful on Macs or PCs that only have USB ports. That's one of the reasons I like the Unicomp keyboards, is they are offered in USB, and they even have a Mac-specific version that has the properly labeled Option and Command keys (although this isn't necessary at all, unless you have to look at your keyboard to find these keys.. <grin>)

 

..Al

I was going to say surely people just use ps/2 to USB adapters, but after googling realised it's not that simple. But there are special keyboard adapters and I guess that's what they re using. Which makes the whole exercise even more expensive! I mentioned it on another forum and it turns out for some people, it's still worth the hassle.

Edited September 12, 2015 by danny_galaga

[JamesD]

I was quite surprised to learn that people are still paying big bucks for 20+ year old IBM Model M keyboards. Nice to think something from that era is still so well regarded. And if I ever get up early enough to go to garage sales, it will be something to keep my eyes out for!

I think the original IBM PC keyboards had the best feel once you get out of the 8 bit world.

Nothing quite like that click. The first model had that odd return key but the models that followed were excellent.

I liked the Amiga keyboards but they were nowhere near as good.

[am1933]

Everybody knows that the membrane keyboards are going to fare badly in the grand scheme of things, however-when it comes to "real" keyboards, there are a multitude of keyboards on the same machine that have dramatically altered the overall feel and quality of the machine.

 

Take the Atari 800XL, early models had a real quality feel to them, then along came nasty cost reduced models and you could literally feel the difference.

There also seems to be a difference in certain VIC20 and C64 keyboards, some are OK, whilst others have a distinctly "spongey" feel to them.

 

Some of my personal favourites would be,

[NinjaWarrior]

I hate the older IBM keyboards, There loud when you type on it

[ovalbugmann]

 

Best keyboard is easily the early IBM PCs. Reasonably close are the later Apple II/IIGS keyboards. Most keyboards of the 70s - 80s fall somewhere between the Apple II and Mattel Aquarius in terms of quality.

Definitely.

 

I think the original IBM PC keyboards had the best feel once you get out of the 8 bit world.

Nothing quite like that click. The first model had that odd return key but the models that followed were excellent.

I liked the Amiga keyboards but they were nowhere near as good.

Yup, agreed.

I hate the older IBM keyboards, There loud when you type on it

 

The clicking sound is part of the satisfaction of typing, when you hear the keys you know work is being done. When IBM made their loud keyboards, the keyboard industry was quite mature, while mice tech was just starting, so IBM produced well engineered keyboards to give the best typing experience with their Model M keyboards. Eveything about it is designed for optimal typing, key color, tactile feedback, pressure to actuate, steadyness of the keys(very little side to side movement), key placement/size, deep dye instead of ink for the letters, composite plastic that doesn't yellow, angle of the keys - everything is there to reduce errors and increase speed, its really a joy to type on. When your witing a book with hundreds of pages there's nothing like original IBM quality to reduce frustration of the work. I cannot ever use "bubbledome" keyboards again, they are not best and don't compare to the more expensive options. I have a few 1980's IBM Model M keyboards and they are tanks - very well built. I heard the keys are rated for a million strokes(MTBF) or something like that.

 

I am currently using the below pictured IBM Personal Computer AT Keyboard from... I guestimate 1984 - it has a has a higher gram weight key actuation as compared to a Model M, similar to Cherry MX Greens keys but is very nice to type on I feel, I like hitting the keys hard when trying to type fast so I don't mind it. I have a Cherry MX blues keyboard and it is nice too.

Edited September 15, 2015 by ovalbugmann

[jdgabbard]

worst has to be the Sinclair computers. I just restored one, and it was horrible.

 

Best, as a whole, IBM style AT keyboards. The best one I have found was this M-Tek. Clicks and provides good tactile response. In my opinion keyboard layout also plays into the concept of joy of use. The TI-99 has great keys, but I always find myself looking for the specialty keys...

 

[MarkO]

For the IBM "Type F" and "Type M" Buckling Spring Keyboards, I have seen reference to 25 Million Keystrokes of Operational Life..

 

 

I own about a Dozen Type M Keyboards, and I am typing this message on a Model M, ID #:8867733, 08-DEC-93. It's Coming Up on its 22 Birthday..

 

MarkO

[Omega-TI]

Back in 'the good old day's', when there was more profit margin in a devices sold, they could afford to make things to last. Now things are just cheap crap designed to live only as long as it's 'lifetime before planned obsolescence'. Now days when something breaks down it's cheaper for the sheeple to 'buy a new one'. Make sure it breaks down, then people will buy another and keep the company profitable.

[Bill Loguidice]

Back in 'the good old day's', when there was more profit margin in a devices sold, they could afford to make things to last. Now things are just cheap crap designed to live only as long as it's 'lifetime before planned obsolescence'. Now days when something breaks down it's cheaper for the sheeple to 'buy a new one'. Make sure it breaks down, then people will buy another and keep the company profitable.

 

Seems like rose-tinted nostalgia glasses you have on there to me. Things broke all the time in the past on the computer and console sides. Sure, things break now, but, in general, once you pass a certain price threshold (a la, NOT $60 tablet computers), build quality is generally excellent with often higher manufacturing tolerances than were possible in the 70s and 80s.

 

It's not that people today are replacing perfectly good items because they break, they're replacing perfectly good items because the slightly better new item is now available. That's what's changed from the past, not build quality. The modern consumer has been conditioned to lust after new items every year, even though their existing item still functions perfectly fine. While there are significant ecological disadvantages to that type of consumerism, it's also the march of progress, and, frankly, as a life-time techno-luster myself, I can't say I dislike the constant influx of new product, incremental improvements or not.

[Omega-TI]

 

Seems like rose-tinted nostalgia glasses you have on there to me.

 

Hell yeah! That's why I like hanging out at "Atari Age" and play with a "Classic" computer!

Some say, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." I say, "If it ain't broke, don't replace it!"

 

 

I'm also convinced that all the 'free' system updates are just another way to slow down your machine incrementally to the point that you THINK you need a new system.

[ovalbugmann]

 

There must still be tons of those out there, but who knows what condition they are in now. Plus, they will have PS/2 connectors, which is fine for PCs that still have those connectors, but not as useful on Macs or PCs that only have USB ports. That's one of the reasons I like the Unicomp keyboards, is they are offered in USB, and they even have a Mac-specific version that has the properly labeled Option and Command keys (although this isn't necessary at all, unless you have to look at your keyboard to find these keys.. <grin>)

 

..Al

The ps/2 keyboard connector is also called a mini-DIN connection and of course came after the larger original DIN keyboard connectors which some early IBM Model M's have and the IBM PC AT keyboard as well. PS/2 connections are not used really anymore on new pc's, but if someone wants to use an old IBM keyboard on a brand new PC or Mac it shouldn't be a problem as both the original large DIN to PS/2 cable adaptors and PS/2 to USB adaptors are available from places like clickykeyboards, ebay etc. So connections are not a problem.

 

http://www.clickykeyboards.com/index.cfm/fa/categories.main/parentcat/11298

 

When I was in the market for a model M keyboard, there were a good amount to choose from on eBay and most in great condition, albet some a bit dirty or missing keycaps occasionally. When buying an original unit, which I prefer over Unicomp, for the nostalgia and daily use of a historic keyboard, be aware of a Model M weakness; although there is a heavy steel base plate in them which add to reliability, the plate was fastened by a few dozen plastic tabs to the rest and when too many of those break off the whole keyboard will get loose and make typing harder - you can see it when you press a key and all the nearby keys go down too far. It can be fixed by drilling out all the plastic tabs and replacing with screws, so anyone in the market for one should be aware of this. I bought and sold at least 8 model M's and only a IBM terminal keyboard had this problem - I sent it back, the tabs would come out when turned upside down and sections of keys felt mushy.

Edited September 17, 2015 by ovalbugmann

[MarkO]

The ps/2 keyboard connector is also called a mini-DIN connection and of course came after the larger original DIN keyboard connectors which some early IBM Model M's have and the IBM PC AT keyboard as well. PS/2 connections are not used really anymore on new pc's, but if someone wants to use an old IBM keyboard on a brand new PC or Mac it shouldn't be a problem as both the original large DIN to PS/2 cable adaptors and PS/2 to USB adaptors are available from places like clickykeyboards, ebay etc. So connections are not a problem.

 

http://www.clickykeyboards.com/index.cfm/fa/categories.main/parentcat/11298

 

<< SNIP >>

 

If your going to use a PS/2 Clicky Keyboard with a USB Adapter, you want THIS ONE listed above...

 

The IBM Keyboards pull A LOT of Power, and since the USB Ports are Limited to 500mA, most PS/2 to USB adapters Won't Work with them..

 

When I got my new Work Machine, I had to buy one of these from Clickykeyboards.... All the other I tried wouldn't work...

 

MarkO

Edited September 17, 2015 by MarkO

[MarkO]

Last month, IT World had an article, "Just their type: 12 keyboards beloved by programmers"....

In No Particular Order...
Slide #2 is, IBM Model M
Slide #3 is, Northgate OmniKey
Slide #8 is, Dell SK-8115 (AKA L100)
Slide #10 is, Das
Slide #13 is, Apple Aluminum Wireless

I use the Model M, regularly, I have used the Northgate in the past, just as good as the Model M, I use a Dell SK-8115 at Church, very nice for a Non-Clicky, --- Ω --- mentioned the DAS and the Apple Aluminum looks just like the Apple keyboard I am using Right this Minute on my Mac Mini, typing this message...

 

 

MarkO

[jaybird3rd]

Wow, I didn't realize that the Dell keyboard featured in the article had so many fans. My university is a Dell shop, and we have tons of those keyboards. I guess they're okay, as far as budget keyboards go, but they're hardly something I'd seek out. I got a bunch of new ones with a mixed lot of computer equipment and donated them to the school without thinking twice. I've also used that Apple keyboard, and I found it to be incredibly limiting.

 

I understand why programmers would like the Northgate OmniKey, though. I seem to recall that I had a Keytronic keyboard that used the same Alps switches. I didn't like it quite as much as the Model M, but it had a good feel, and I'd happily use it if a Model M wasn't an option.

[MarkO]

Wow, I didn't realize that the Dell keyboard featured in the article had so many fans. My university is a Dell shop, and we have tons of those keyboards. I guess they're okay, as far as budget keyboards go, but they're hardly something I'd seek out. I got a bunch of new ones with a mixed lot of computer equipment and donated them to the school without thinking twice. I've also used that Apple keyboard, and I found it to be incredibly limiting.

 

I understand why programmers would like the Northgate OmniKey, though. I seem to recall that I had a Keytronic keyboard that used the same Alps switches. I didn't like it quite as much as the Model M, but it had a good feel, and I'd happily use it if a Model M wasn't an option.

the Dell keyboards are ok.. I have had much. much worse.. but the Model M is my first choice, and the Northgate a second.. I haven't tried the Unicomps, but their buckling spring so they're good..

 

the apple is usable, but I am getting another clickykeyboard ps2 to USB to see if the IBM works on the mac mini.

[SoundGammon]

The Atari 400 keyboard is the best for its design: school use with kids and sticky stuff that falls between the keys!

 

Can't imagine any other keyboard that could take that kind of environment!

[The Usotsuki]

Didn't Dell sell Lexmark Ms at one point?

[Mr SQL]

Definitely.

 

Yup, agreed.

The clicking sound is part of the satisfaction of typing, when you hear the keys you know work is being done. When IBM made their loud keyboards, the keyboard industry was quite mature, while mice tech was just starting, so IBM produced well engineered keyboards to give the best typing experience with their Model M keyboards. Eveything about it is designed for optimal typing, key color, tactile feedback, pressure to actuate, steadyness of the keys(very little side to side movement), key placement/size, deep dye instead of ink for the letters, composite plastic that doesn't yellow, angle of the keys - everything is there to reduce errors and increase speed, its really a joy to type on. When your witing a book with hundreds of pages there's nothing like original IBM quality to reduce frustration of the work. I cannot ever use "bubbledome" keyboards again, they are not best and don't compare to the more expensive options. I have a few 1980's IBM Model M keyboards and they are tanks - very well built. I heard the keys are rated for a million strokes(MTBF) or something like that.

 

I am currently using the below pictured IBM Personal Computer AT Keyboard from... I guestimate 1984 - it has a has a higher gram weight key actuation as compared to a Model M, similar to Cherry MX Greens keys but is very nice to type on I feel, I like hitting the keys hard when trying to type fast so I don't mind it. I have a Cherry MX blues keyboard and it is nice too.

Right on! I could sit down with these keyboards and type away at 80 WPM and nothing beat the feedback the keyboard would give - it sounded cool, not just to me but to anyone walking by. You have one of those keyboards and no one needs Microsoft MOM to determine developer productivity - hard to tell sometimes today anyway with so many paperclip "Microsoft Bob" tools slowing things down. Microsoft MOM heuristics actually make exceptions for them!

[ClausB]

The Atari 400's is as good as a membrane could be. The keys' raised edges make them easy to locate. You can feel as well as hear the speaker click to be sure it registered. Once you adapt to a light touch followed by a firm push, rather than a poke, you find it just fine.

 

The Sinclair/Timex is not so nice but if you type in FAST mode the TV blinks with each keystroke. Some TVs even make a little noise when they blink and provide audible feedback. The clever BASIC with its single-stoke keywords helps too. And there is so little RAM you can get away with single-character variable names and short strings, so there's not as much to type.

[MarkO]

The Atari 400's is as good as a membrane could be. The keys' raised edges make them easy to locate. You can feel as well as hear the speaker click to be sure it registered. Once you adapt to a light touch followed by a firm push, rather than a poke, you find it just fine.

 

The Sinclair/Timex is not so nice but if you type in FAST mode the TV blinks with each keystroke. Some TVs even make a little noise when they blink and provide audible feedback. The clever BASIC with its single-stoke keywords helps too. And there is so little RAM you can get away with single-character variable names and short strings, so there's not as much to type.

I found the Sinclair ZX81 ( Timex-Sinclair 1000 ), Adequate for entering code... I was 17 at the time...

 

It was Impressive what the "Little Wedge" could do.....

 

MarkO

[JamesD]

I found the Sinclair ZX81 ( Timex-Sinclair 1000 ), Adequate for entering code... I was 17 at the time...

 

It was Impressive what the "Little Wedge" could do.....

 

MarkO

Defending the worst keyboard ever to grace a personal computer. Nice!

 

 

Actually, I'm posting because I remembered another bad keyboard.

This is the Interact One.

Not only is it chicklet but look at the numbers! (among other oddities)

This is definitely in the running for the worst!

 

 

But they did offer a keyboard upgrade at some point

Edited September 22, 2015 by JamesD

[+OLD CS1]

Good Lord! You know, I have often wondered if some of the horrible keyboard (and expansion, for that matter) layouts were the results of people actually thinking, "oh, man, this is GREAT!" or perhaps the results of hours of hard work and toil to create THE perfect layout which would change the world. Maybe the end of numerous meetings or focus groups trying to find the perfect ergonomic solution.

 

Or perhpas some poor guy saying, aw bugger it, I have a deadline to meet.

[BydoEmpire]

 

Seems like rose-tinted nostalgia glasses you have on there to me. Things broke all the time in the past on the computer and console sides. Sure, things break now, but, in general, once you pass a certain price threshold (a la, NOT $60 tablet computers), build quality is generally excellent with often higher manufacturing tolerances than were possible in the 70s and 80s.

Not in my (completely anecdotal) experience. Old CD players, toasters, coffee makers, game consoles, computer mice, printers and even computers still worked great after 20+ years. I've had many newer CD players, toasters, coffee makers, game consoles, mice, printers and computers break in a few years. Granted, some of these things like computers are more complex than they were decades ago, with more failure points, but in my experience household items from 20-30 years ago were generally more reliable than today. I wouldn't say it's rose-colored glasses, it's personal experience. I'm not saying that experience is the same for everyone, or even necessarily true across the entire market but I do think there's a reasonable argument to be made. Maybe I buy too many $15 mice?

 

It is an interesting question, though. My family's original Inty died after a few years (we replaced w/ an Inty2). My near-launch ps2 still works fine, although it doesn't get a lot of use anymore. My original c64 still runs fine (although the 6 key popped off years ago), although I do have a 15+ year old PC that also work great... it just sits in the closet most of the time. I have a lot more examples of "older things lasting longer" outside of the console/pc realm, and I'm not sure it's fair to compare 80s consoles and computers with modern ones with so many more failure points. It's not really an apples-to-apples comparison.

 

 

 

they're replacing perfectly good items because the slightly better new item is now available. That's what's changed from the past, not build quality.

I think they're probably both true. Sure, there are people buying "new shiny things," but for many household goods build quality and lifetime has probably decreased. Cost has decreased, but so has quality along with it.

Edited September 22, 2015 by BydoEmpire

[JamesD]

The only reason I can think of for the Interact to intentionally have the numeric keys in that order is to make typing binary easy.

Even if that was the reason it's like... you make typing binary easy, which only a tiny number of people would ever do, but make typing everything else harder?
All it would take to fix that is change the keyboard polling routine so I don't see any other reason for it.