FPGA Based Videogame System

[Pixelboy]

Can we use it as a combo? I mean, for a Intellivision, use the controle for directional and buttons and keyboard for the numpad?

I'm thinking that if Kevtris can bring his FPGA system to the market and it takes off sufficiently well, you'll see some third-parties making custom USB controllers for the console (which will incidently be usable on PCs or any other computer with USB connectors). Such custom USB controllers could feature a 12-key keypad (for ColecoVision, Intellivision and Atari 5200), or a trackball (for ColecoVision, Atari 2600 and others) or a paddle that could also be used as a mini steering wheel for driving games.

 

Of course, I'm probably being a little too optimistic with this idea of custom USB controllers, but they should be technically doable, at least. Just imagine a controller like this one with a USB connector:

 

[phoenixdownita]

Thanks a ton to everyone for your replies so far! It's been extremely illustrative for me. I will now try to clear up some of the finer details.

 

.....

 

When I release new cores (or update old ones) all you'll have to do is drop the new stuff onto your SD card and plug it in and you're good to go. Speaking of new cores, these are my goals for the project:

 

SNES, Genesis, and Neogeo (and TG-16). I want to do other cores as well but I will feel like I accomplished something with those three. I also have a chubby to add super acan, believe it or not. I don't know why but it seems like an awesome challenge to me. I also own 3 of the damn things I paid 99 cents for :-)

 

I also want a huge galaxy of computers too. This new hardware I came up with is the key to getting all of these cores going.

 

tcdev: thanks a bunch for helping explain the wonders of FPGAs. I like your work :-)

Are the cores part of the deal or do you plan on selling them separately?

If so what kind of per core charge were you thinking?

[kevtris]

Are the cores part of the deal or do you plan on selling them separately?

If so what kind of per core charge were you thinking?

There will be no charge for new ones. Drop them on and go to town :-)

[Shawn]

I'll go $200ish and I would like to be able to run 8bit & 16bit legacy carts via edge connector or equal in an adapter as well as digital binaries via SD card. SD or whatever for the new games that might come out specifically for this console is cool with me. Would be nice to see composite for my old tv and HDMI for my new one. Might even get me to buy 2 of these things in the end.

[Keatah]

Nonono... CRT is the only way you can ever play lightgun games.

With today's tech, you can have a LED based pointing system like the Wiimote ot the earlier Philips CD-i Gun, that need no analog/CRT displays.

 

A tech buddy of mine wired up a light gun that was context aware, had memory, CPU, CCD, and only sent the fire pulse to the console when the gun visually identified the exact target. Had it going with duck hunt.

 

Why bother having hardware cores without it? All the rest I think will make some happy and some angry, that's just the way it is.

Marketing. Can't have your machine run too many old classic roms. You'd never buy the new material on cartridges. Then there was the legal aspect. Surely some cores would need to be rogue and free and not associated with the oem of the console.

[Keatah]

The "extensive industry experience" feels like a 747 with too many D-checks & updates.

 

I'm wary of anyone touting how far back their experience goes when it comes to marketing and producing video games these days. Kinda the same thing happened with David Crane's jungle thing, didn't it?

 

Added: the above is RVGS commentary.

 

I think kevtris' material is alright, but can he and will he market it? It's a niche within a niche. And I do not believe he should expand and polish it to the level of a commercial console. Because if so, then you got cartridge complaints, developer issues, release titles, controllers, more QA.. And a wider audience which wants the kitchen sink and doesn't understand the tech involved. Way too much scope to manage and keep it fun.

 

I personally believe it should sold as a bare board. Market it like the KIM-1 or other early single board computers. Couple a PDF flyers, message board posts. Done.

Edited September 22, 2015 by Keatah

[Andromeda Stardust]

Kevtris, have you given thought to making cart adapters? If the FPGA has enough I/O for a 60/72-pin FC/NES bus in addition to digital/analog output, it should be doable. Also I hope you reconsider 5200. It's controller is atrocious, but would be perfect for a modern USB thumbstick.

 

 

A tech buddy of mine wired up a light gun that was context aware, had memory, CPU, CCD, and only sent the fire pulse to the console when the gun visually identified the exact target. Had it going with duck hunt.


Marketing. Can't have your machine run too many old classic roms. You'd never buy the new material on cartridges. Then there was the legal aspect. Surely some cores would need to be rogue and free and not associated with the oem of the console.

Keatah, please tell me you were doing it on real NES hardware and not an emulator (Like Duck Hunt Wii-U VC with Wiimote - it isn't the same...)

[Keatah]

Real hardware through modern LCD.

[Pixelboy]

There will be no charge for new ones. Drop them on and go to town :-)

I have to ask this: Is there a certain limit to how many times you can reprogram a FPGA? For example, I know EEPROMs have a certain "life expectancy" in terms of how many times you can write to and read from them, so I'm wondering if FPGAs have a similar limit.

[tcdev]

I have to ask this: Is there a certain limit to how many times you can reprogram a FPGA? For example, I know EEPROMs have a certain "life expectancy" in terms of how many times you can write to and read from them, so I'm wondering if FPGAs have a similar limit.

 

In theory, no. The bitstream in most FPGA's is stored in SRAM.

[PlaysWithWolves]

So in this system, are there not enough bits and maths for Jaguar?

[tcdev]

So in this system, are there not enough bits and maths for Jaguar?

 

For the base option, hell no! The current FPGA implementation (reportedly) requires a Stratix II that is (again, reportedly) roughly equivalent to an EP3C40, only faster!

 

They're saying the base option can't even emulate classic systems which fit easily into an EP2C20 - half the size of the EP3C40. So they're obviously looking at something smaller again for the RetroVGS (although to be fair it's not clear whether it's the logic, RAM or I/O count that is the limiting factor in the chosen FPGA), but my guess would be the EP3C5/10. If the stretch goal is reached, apart from being inundated with Flying Pigs, it's still unlikely that the larger FPGA (my guess EP3C16/25) would be adequate.

 

It would be somewhat ironic if it could emulate most classic systems, excepting the one whose case it is housed in!

Edited September 22, 2015 by tcdev

[PlaysWithWolves]

It would be somewhat ironic if it could emulate most classic systems, excepting the one whose case it is housed in!

 

Whoops, I was referring to Kevin's system. But, I appreciate the insight into what that other one can do!

I'm just curious since there'd be no legal issues (as I understand it).

[GroovyBee]

There are a couple of jag FPGA versions :-

 

SCPCD: http://scpcd.free.fr

Torlus:

 

Both are members here.

[EvilDragon]

Wow, awesome project

If I can help out, I'd do it.

 

I certainly would like to resell them in Germany, in case you're looking for resellers

(www.dragonbox.de and www.everdrive.de are my shops, as I'm not sure how much I'm known here )

[Kaijuseijin]

Kevtris, this sounds amazing. I'm the guy who started the original Neogaf thread regarding the RetroVGS and the plans for it to be Kickstarted.http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1043605&highlight=

The point being I was really behind the project and really excited for the system's potential. Then IMHO, the project started to unravel when they doubled their original price target from $150 to over $300(feature creep), never

really showed "wow" with the game support, had a goal of over a million dollars(in reality they want 3 million) and literally changed the campaign over to Indiegogo from Kickstarter at the last minute. I went from hardcore
"believer/backer" in the system to basically "a stood up date" and backed off even supporting/backing the system. So that's that.

 

When I saw your post regarding your project, I was like "now that's what I wanted the RetroVGS to be!" and immediately thought you should do some community out reach(which you are doing ) for a possible Kickstarter campaign(hint, hint)

to get your system out there. I'm convinced you'd smash any reasonable goal on Kickstarter and I like the sheer amount of system support you have built into the project already. I'm 43 and grew up playing the Atari 2600, Vectrex, Intellivision, Colecovision and so on.

 

So basically what I'm trying to say is I'm posting here(hello Atariage!) to voice my support for your project and really, really hope you consider doing a Kickstarter to get the system out there for us. I voted in the poll as well. I'd like to see a $150-$200 price point(but wouldn't mind it hitting $250), cartridge based(but would settle for sd card or thumbsticks), HDMI output and target the 16 bit era though you have a nice selection of all the systems.

 

About the only way I'd support RetroVGS at this point is if they work out the behind the scenes issues with you and bring you on board to help reshape the project and put you in charge of the system specs and tech, get the price under control, get a reasonable funding goal agreed on and relaunch the campaign on Kickstarter.

 

I'm a firm believer in forgiveness and "moving on, water under the bridge" and perhaps you can still salvage a working relationship with the Retro guys.

 

If not, I'd love to see your project irregardless brought to the masses and would again, happily support a Kickstarter campaign for your system!

 

Thanks Kevtris!

[Andromeda Stardust]

Real hardware through modern LCD.

YT Video or it didn't happen. No "Wiimote guts into Zapper casing" mods allowed either. That's been done before with a hacked Wii playing Duck Hunt and an NES deck in front for show.

[cimerians]

 

I had huge plans for doing all kinds of computers on here as well. C64 is pretty much done- I have made an FPGA SID player! This includes 90% of the C64, because it runs every single SID file (yeah I tested all of them) and you have to run the BASIC ROMs and such. For "realSIDplay" files, it actually boots the C64 OS and waits for the blinking cursor before faking typing in SYS nnnn or RUN depending on which type it is (ASM or BASIC).

 

The FPGA SID I have done includes a real analog filter that closely models the real chip. The SID HDL code is 100% complete and fully debugged and even supports lots of the weird things people have come up with like high quality samples using the PWM, enveloper, and other weird crap. And it handled the "looped noise" effect as well. The only slight fly in the ointment is the filter is external analog hardware so I wouldn't be able to include this filter on my system.

 

 

 

 

Holy crap. Lord Kevtris, you're a hero. Lemon64 needs to know this.

 

I'm a SIDplaying fiend, completely made my day with this news.

[Pixelboy]

Kevtris' prototype FPGA system is so awesome I'm actually addicted to this thread!

 

So from the poll results so far, people want 8-bit and 16-bit cores pretty much equally, a SD card reader is a must (which is a given anyway if FPGA cores are loaded via SD), HDMI is the preferred TV output option, and we're looking at a 150$-200$ price point for the console.

 

Three things come to my mind:

 

1) Perhaps controllers should not be bundled with the console, just to keep the price down. People could just buy/use their favorite USB controller(s), but I have to wonder if all controllers are the same in terms of I/O between the controller and the console. Could USB controller compatibility become a problem?

 

2) I have to assume that different cores would have to be developed for SD-based gaming and cartridge adaptors. For example, the NES core running The Legend of Zelda from an SD card would need some extra programming to save the player's progress in the appointed savegame directory on that same SD card, but this extra programming would not be required with the cartridge adaptor since the real NES cartridge is used. Am I right?

 

3) Regardless of how a game is played (via SD card or cartridge) I would expect that the FPGA core will always be loaded from an SD card. ColecoVision carts are a good example of multiple cartridge types: Regular 8K/12K/16K/20K/24K/32K games, MegaCart games, Activision PCB games, and new cartridge PCBs may be developed in the near future which could require some alterations to the ColecoVision core. As I stated earlier, Super Game Module support in the ColecoVision core should also be planned...

[+Gemintronic]

Oh, since I didn't make it clear: I would TOTALLY buy into this. All similar solutions are too finicky, too pricey or too unavailable (C-One, Minimig, Chameleon, etc..)

[phoenixdownita]

There will be no charge for new ones. Drop them on and go to town :-)

Awesome.

At 2 days from the start of the poll though I believe that <100 members have responded.

The number alone is too low to even consider starting this venture.

 

So maybe it is really a niche within a niche.

 

Realistically how many NES HDMI did you produced (roughly, I am not interested in calculating your take home)?

That number maybe multiplied by 2 or 3 should give a good proxy on the interest for 8bits (when Tim NES RGB came out it was the bomb but I doubt he sold tens of thousands ... but I may be wrong).

16bits (Genny and Snes) are weird as a Genny2 is darn cheap, so are the SNES, so the SNES core needs to take unto itslef to emulate also the special chips (DSP, SuperFX and SA1) to become very attractive. The addition of a 32X core may help a little but that sucker is also more complex with its dual SH-2 and only ~40 games.

NeoGeo core alone would sell this thing for sure (especially if load form SD is supported but those games can get to 768Mbits ~< 96MBytes which is substantial but you already stated your board has 256MB).

 

Anyway unless this poll grows to at least 1000 obviously it's a niche of a niche, and needs to be dealt with differently than something you would like to reach say 100K units in sales.

Edited September 22, 2015 by phoenixdownita

[Pixelboy]

Awesome.

At 2 days from the start of the poll though I believe that <100 members have responded.

The number alone is too low to even consider starting this venture.

 

So maybe it is really a niche within a niche.

 

Realistically how many NES HDMI did you produced (roughly, I am not interested in calculating your take home)?

That number maybe multiplied by 2 or 3 should give a good proxy on the interest for 8bits (when Tim NES RGB came out it was the bomb but I doubt he sold tens of thousands ... but I may be wrong).

16bits (Genny and Snes) are weird as a Genny2 is darn cheap, so are the SNES, so the SNES core needs to take unto itslef to emulate also the special chips (DSP, SuperFX and SA1) to become very attractive. The addition of a 32X core may help a little but that sucker is also more complex with its dual SH-2 and only ~40 games.

NeoGeo core alone would sell this thing for sure (especially if load form SD is supported but those games can get to 768Mbits ~< 96MBytes which is substantial but you already stated your board has 256MB).

 

Anyway unless this poll grows to at least 1000 obviously it's a niche of a niche, and needs to be dealt with differently than something you would like to reach say 100K units in sales.

Not every retrogamer out there frequents the AtariAge forums on a regular basis, and those who do are not always monitoring the "Classic Gaming" sub-forum, so looking at the number of participants of this poll may not provide an accurate view of the system's potential. But still, I have to agree with you that the market viability of this proposed FPGA system is unproven. A Kickstarter campaign would yield a much better picture of the interest by the general public. But for such a Kickstarter campaign to gather steam, I believe kevtris would have to develop and show at least one cartridge adaptor, in prototype form. Then people would know that cartridge adaptors are actually part of the plan and not just a pipe dream.

[MaximRecoil]

1) The main appeal for me is to be able to play the older 8-bit games on a modern TV, via HDMI, with a perfect picture quality. I want to see the pixels clearly on the screen, with no ugly color bleed or any kind of "wavy" interference which I often see when using the original consoles on old CRT televisions.

 

So you think it looks better if graphics look like they are made of Lego blocks and could double as a set of stairs (which you'd have to be careful when climbing, lest you gash your shin on the razor sharp edges), than if they look like something far more natural, like a painting on a canvas?

 

[Pixelboy]

So you think it looks better if graphics look like they are made of Lego blocks and could double as a set of stairs (which you'd have to be careful when climbing, lest you gash your shin on the razor sharp edges), than if they look like something far more natural, like a painting on a canvas?

Yep, that's right. But I understand that others may not feel the same way I do about this.

[Bill Loguidice]

Anyway unless this poll grows to at least 1000 obviously it's a niche of a niche, and needs to be dealt with differently than something you would like to reach say 100K units in sales.

 

I'm always conservative with such things, but I can't think of any reason why 500+ couldn't be sold without breaking a sweat as long as it was reasonably easy to purchase and no restrictions were needed on how this was advertised/written about outside of AtariAge.

 

If the goal is tens of thousands of sales or greater, that's a dramatically different level of manufacturing and distribution. If that's the goal, then an existing manufacturing with established connections would likely need to be contacted and partnered with.

 

Kickstarter is always an option (and one suitable for this type of project), but that presents its own issues and challenges. For example, assuming it took off, you'd need detailed manufacturing and distribution plans in place for the best case "worst case" scenario (i.e., being able to cover all that demand). There's a big difference between levels of runs and support that such an operation would need if you're serving 500 -1000 users versus 10,000 - 100,000 users.