FPGA Based Videogame System

[veelk55]

The RetroEngine Sigma has been getting tons of support and shows up a lot on my Facebook feed now.

This reminds me of that day when I learned about the OUYA and was excited.

Or the RetroN 5... or the Retro Freak, or the RetroPi...

Of all these though, the RetroN5 was the most useful if only because I could backup all my cartridges save files!

[retro_fan]

A list of features that people would like to see implemented for the Analogue NT mini.

 

I think this list is also interesting in the context of the Zimba 3000. One can find there some really interesting ideas.

[Reaperman]

I haven't been following this thread as close as I should, but after my time with the AVS's fpga, and the time I spent watching the kevtris review/teardown of it, I'd officially like to push the poll answer of how much I'd be willing to spend a good bit higher. The sky's still not my limit, but if it's anywhere close to what the avs does, across anywhere near the number of systems mentioned, it starts feeling like a $500 device pretty quick.

 

It might take me a while to find enough pennies, though.

[kevtris]

Time for my monthly (sorta) check in. Nope, haven't forgotten about the thread. Just been extremely busy on the mini as you can guess. I am hoping for big things in 2017 though. Thanks for everyone's insight and ideas, I have been reading every post!

[Andromeda Stardust]

I haven't been following this thread as close as I should, but after my time with the AVS's fpga, and the time I spent watching the kevtris review/teardown of it, I'd officially like to push the poll answer of how much I'd be willing to spend a good bit higher. The sky's still not my limit, but if it's anywhere close to what the avs does, across anywhere near the number of systems mentioned, it starts feeling like a $500 device pretty quick.

 

It might take me a while to find enough pennies, though.

To me the AVS was the perfect marriage of price point versus features. I understand Kevtris is behind the NT Mini, but being 250% more expensive than the AVS, I wonder how much of that is the larger FPGA, and how much of that price increase is in the milled aluminum case. I'd love to support the NT, but it's just too much.

 

Kevtris, how is the development going on the other systems? One other guy on here made an Atari FPGA with a cassette player form factor. Truthfully the idea of a multiconsole that doesn't suck seems amazing, and IMO it's just such a waste of resources to make an FPGA console that can't reconfigure itself to be whatever the heck it wanted.

 

Anyway I wish you lots of luck and hope more collab projects can license your cores. I'm still waiting for a proper Atari clone.

[veelk55]

I have like... 2 problems with the AVS keeping me from fully enjoying it as much as I could.

 

1. It needs a horizontal stretch slight filtering.

Without this, I'll never get the perfect horizontal res. It will either be too wide or too narrow. Narrow being 1:1 and stretched being whatever it is it has to be set to so the pixels look more even.

I don't like that. I want something in between.

 

2. It is in grave need of a custom color palette.

See, I'm aware that NTSC stands for Never The Same Color. But if it at least let me adjust the colors from within the system, I'd be happy. Not sure how else I'd install my own palette on a system that has no SD slot.

I really don't like purple skies in Super Mario Bros.

I think it was purple in the Top Loader NES too. If the screenshots I find online are correct, the AVS seems to mimick the Top Loader's colors more than the Front Loader.

[Andromeda Stardust]

I have like... 2 problems with the AVS keeping me from fully enjoying it as much as I could.

 

1. It needs a horizontal stretch slight filtering.

Without this, I'll never get the perfect horizontal res. It will either be too wide or too narrow. Narrow being 1:1 and stretched being whatever it is it has to be set to so the pixels look more even.

I don't like that. I want something in between.

Best integer ratio:

4 ticks from far left (starting with leftmost point at zero) = 4:3 = four pixels wide, three tall.

 

Closest to ideal ratio:

2 ticks from far left = 3.5:3 = 50% four pixels wide, 50% three pixels wide. Even worst case scenarios such as checkerboard patterns (the pipes in Super Mario Brothers are a good example) do not look so bad with every other pixel being the same width.

 

I do not recommend the odd tick ratios. While 3.75:3 = 1.25 (3 ticks from far left, starting with zero) is next closest to the ideal NES pixel ratio of 1.2:1, it just doesn't work. The odd ticks are essentially every fourth pixel being wider or narrower than the others, which IMO looks really bad, worse with scrolling. 3:3 is too skinny for my taste so I use the 4:3 setting most often, and 3.5:3 occasionally if the game appears too wide.

 

An ideal way to handle these odd sizes would be to blend exactly one output pixel on neighbooring input pixels. For instance, a 3.75:3 ratio would work as follows:

 

For stretching 4 input pixels A B C D to 15 output pixels using a fairly simple nearest neighbor / bilinear hybrid algorithm:

 

(A 100%), (A 100%), (A 100%), (A 75% + B 25%), (B 100%), (B 100%), (B 100%), (B 50% + C 50%), (C 100%), (C 100%), (C 100%), (C 25% + D 75%), (D 100%), (D 100%), (D 100%)

 

This results in concise pixels each with a ratio of 1.25:1. Lastly, the blended pixel in 720p output should be small enough to be almost indiscernible when viewed on screen at a normal viewing distance on a 1080p display. It still would not be an absolutely perfect solution however, as the 0% boundaries (no blend pixel) would be ever so slightly sharper onscreen visibly than the 50% boundaries, but vastly improved over the nearest neighbor solution resulting in uneven pixel widths at non-integer ratios.

 

Bunnyboy aka Brian Parker of RetroUSB used a smaller and more cost reduced FPGA for the AVS (720p max, nearest neighbor scaling) compared to Kevtris's FPGA implementation on the NT Mini, which has vastly expanded menu options including audio panning, 1080p, advanced scalers, and lastly accessing the menu during gameplay does not reset the game. Brian mentioned once that the FPGA he used in the AVS did not have enough memory to access the menu interface without resetting the game. So tweaking the display/input settings during gameplay on AVS is not possible sadly...

[Everett1954]

kevtris,

 

I know you have mentioned a couple times that you have worked on cores already. Can you give us a list of which cores are completed and which ones are works in progress?

I know this will probably change as hardware hasn't finalized.

 

Thanks for checking in an giving us a monthly update.

 

I can't wait for Zimba to become a reality.

[Pixelboy]

I know you have mentioned a couple times that you have worked on cores already. Can you give us a list of which cores are completed and which ones are works in progress?

Check the very first post in this thread. I don't think the list posted there has changed much since this thread was started.

[veelk55]

Nintendo Switch core ftw!!!
Just joking of course. I couldn't resist in light of Nintendo's reveal.

 

Seen a couple of outrageous core requests on previous pages from this thread though.

I really wish this would become a reality too. But man, the more I think of this, the more I realize that this is not gonna be a joke.

This will become THE definite thing that everyone will have or want, when you consider all the failed retro machines / messy PC emulators / phone emulators. I can already imagine ALL gaming news websites talking about this when released.

Edited January 18, 2017 by veelk55

[roland p]

Less is more I guess. Make it cheap (hopefully capable enough for say, neo-geo), no carts, create a few cores for the (emulation-wise) most wanted consoles.

 

Nintendo get's away with offering only one 'core' and no analog outputs. (and even not available...)

Edited January 18, 2017 by roland p

[Keatah]

This machine, should it come to fruition, really only needs 2 outputs. HDMI for the future and large contemporary displays. And Composite Analog for the retro CRT.

 

Ideally it would have only HDMI, but since this thing is centered around old-school games and their audience, composite will be in high demand. I say skip RGB and S-Video unless they can be had for essentially free.

[Andromeda Stardust]

Nintendo Switch core ftw!!!

Just joking of course. I couldn't resist in light of Nintendo's reveal.

 

Seen a couple of outrageous core requests on previous pages from this thread though.

I really wish this would become a reality too. But man, the more I think of this, the more I realize that this is not gonna be a joke.

This will become THE definite thing that everyone will have or want, when you consider all the failed retro machines / messy PC emulators / phone emulators. I can already imagine ALL gaming news websites talking about this when released.

Well GBA is 15 years old and ran on ARM CPU; Switch is yet to be released and also runs on ARM CPU.

 

So if GBA could be emulated on FPGA today, then a big enough and fast enough core 15 years down the road could run the Switch! Quick, somebody fetch me a Delorian and a Flux Capacitor!

[Keatah]

I think a lot more can be done with emulation than what is on the menu today. We do have consumer CPUs running 24GHZ effectiive, or more affordable options at 16GHZ. And that doesn't even bring in the big guns, the GPUs.

[Flojomojo]

yes ... and we have virtualization too, not just emulation. what a time to be alive

[veelk55]

So if GBA could be emulated on FPGA today, then a big enough and fast enough core 15 years down the road could run the Switch! Quick, somebody fetch me a Delorian and a Flux Capacitor!

 

Loooool, btw when I said "I wanted to see it become a reality" I meant the Zimba in general, not the Switch core XD

I think though, the limit that gaming could really need FPGA for in the future when SDTVs are more difficult to find at people's houses, would be up to the last consoles that played via A/V cables (like PlayStation 2) explicitly because of input lag issues on HD TVs. (Those rhythm games)

[Pixelboy]

One thing I'd like to know is whether Kevin was able to get the Super-NES core working. If memory serves me (I'm too lazy to check back earlier in this thread) he mentioned finding this core to be quite challenging to develop. I would also like to know if the Sega Genesis core is easier to create, by comparison. Does he need a faster FPGA to get those 16-bit cores to work? Using a more recent FPGA would likely drive up the price of the Zimba...

[Schizophretard]

This machine, should it come to fruition, really only needs 2 outputs. HDMI for the future and large contemporary displays. And Composite Analog for the retro CRT.

 

Ideally it would have only HDMI, but since this thing is centered around old-school games and their audience, composite will be in high demand. I say skip RGB and S-Video unless they can be had for essentially free.

 

I would pay more for all of the outputs.

[Andromeda Stardust]

I think a lot more can be done with emulation than what is on the menu today. We do have consumer CPUs running 24GHZ effectiive, or more affordable options at 16GHZ. And that doesn't even bring in the big guns, the GPUs.

24Ghz? So like 8 cores running at 3Ghz, six cores running at 4Gz, or 4 cores running at 6Ghz? That 6Ghz quad core CPU must be the shizzle with a massive heat sink!

[Andromeda Stardust]

 

I would pay more for all of the outputs.

I've no use for S-Video, Component, RGB, or even VGA anymore.

 

It's RF, Composite, HDMI, or bust for me...

[veelk55]

One thing I'd like to know is whether Kevin was able to get the Super-NES core working. If memory serves me (I'm too lazy to check back earlier in this thread) he mentioned finding this core to be quite challenging to develop. I would also like to know if the Sega Genesis core is easier to create, by comparison. Does he need a faster FPGA to get those 16-bit cores to work? Using a more recent FPGA would likely drive up the price of the Zimba...

I'd like to know this too, how Genesis compares to SNES when recreating it and all that.

 

I personally love S-Video because it's just 1 cable. Anything better than this gets a bit complicated and yields too little improvement on a CRT.

HD gamers will have no use for RGB and Component if they have HDMI.

I would still be totally fine with Composite though because it will add some compression artifacts that make things look more legit.

[Schizophretard]

I've no use for S-Video, Component, RGB, or even VGA anymore.

 

It's RF, Composite, HDMI, or bust for me...

 

Not me. I want it future and past proof.

[Andromeda Stardust]

 

Not me. I want it future and past proof.

Hehe. My setup is pretty solid too.

 

Composite covers all analog CRTs (I have an external RF modulator to use with "RF only" sets), and the HDMI covers nearly every flat panel display. For the record, my flat panel ASUS also takes VGA, but all my modern consoles support HDMI. All the old consoles require some amount of modding or special cables to use RGB or Component, and I have nothing that uses these inputs in my current setup. If it's SD, it goes to the CRT; if it's HD, it goes to the 1080p flat panel, which also happens to scale 720p flawlessly. If you have room for a CRT and a flat panel, you won't need to buy any expensive lag-inducing upscalers. The oddball out is Wii with it's 480p widescreen component connection, but since I migrated to the Wii-U, I can push Wii mode to the ASUS in glorious upscaled bliss. Or prop up the Gamepad...

 

All anybody needs for a full retrogaming setup is an old tube TV and a flat panel low latency monitor. Not an HDTV with all sorts of "junk" scalars built in. Every console ever made that outputs to a consumer TV supports either SD over RF and/or Composite, or HD over HDMI. S-Video, component, or RGB are great if you have one of those rare sets that support it, but isn't necessary to appreciate old consoles IMO.

[Schizophretard]

Hehe. My setup is pretty solid too.

 

Composite covers all analog CRTs (I have an external RF modulator to use with "RF only" sets), and the HDMI covers nearly every flat panel display. For the record, my flat panel ASUS also takes VGA, but all my modern consoles support HDMI. All the old consoles require some amount of modding or special cables to use RGB or Component, and I have nothing that uses these inputs in my current setup. If it's SD, it goes to the CRT; if it's HD, it goes to the 1080p flat panel, which also happens to scale 720p flawlessly. If you have room for a CRT and a flat panel, you won't need to buy any expensive lag-inducing upscalers. The oddball out is Wii with it's 480p widescreen component connection, but since I migrated to the Wii-U, I can push Wii mode to the ASUS in glorious upscaled bliss. Or prop up the Gamepad...

 

All anybody needs for a full retrogaming setup is an old tube TV and a flat panel low latency monitor. Not an HDTV with all sorts of "junk" scalars built in. Every console ever made that outputs to a consumer TV supports either SD over RF and/or Composite, or HD over HDMI. S-Video, component, or RGB are great if you have one of those rare sets that support it, but isn't necessary to appreciate old consoles IMO.

 

My flat panel has RF, composite, S-Video, component, and HDMI(can't remember if it has VGA or if that was my last flat panel). Out of my CRT collection the one with the most inputs has RF, composite, S-Video, and component. Anyway, the reason I would prefer the Zimba 3000 to have all the outputs to future and past proof it is because, one, I can check out the outputs for each core and see which I prefer on which TV and, two, because later in life my CRT collection could change. As examples for two, some may break, I may get different results with a new CRT with different hook-ups, I may eventually get a PVM, etc. In other words, since CRT's are endangered species and I don't know the specific models I will have in the future I want to have all of the genitalia the Zimba 3000 could possibly have so that it is good at sexy times with all CRT's.

[Andromeda Stardust]

 

My flat panel has RF, composite, S-Video, component, and HDMI(can't remember if it has VGA or if that was my last flat panel). Out of my CRT collection the one with the most inputs has RF, composite, S-Video, and component. Anyway, the reason I would prefer the Zimba 3000 to have all the outputs to future and past proof it is because, one, I can check out the outputs for each core and see which I prefer on which TV and, two, because later in life my CRT collection could change. As examples for two, some may break, I may get different results with a new CRT with different hook-ups, I may eventually get a PVM, etc. In other words, since CRT's are endangered species and I don't know the specific models I will have in the future I want to have all of the genitalia the Zimba 3000 could possibly have so that it is good at sexy times with all CRT's.

Nothing wrong with having options. It's just that having an old tube set for analog retro consoles and a flat panel for modern HD onsoles covers all the bases. Now that they've upgraded HDMI 2.0 to work with 4k video, I don't see it going anywhere or being replaced any time soon. I was afraid the new UHD gear would require display port or some other junk to work. And now it looks like everything will be replaced with USB-C, with adapters for everything else so we're good for a while yet. I think with future digital interfaces, it will be possible to "downgrade" to older standards with new and old equipment as long as it's digital. 4k HDTVs and beyond will likely always display 480i/p and up seamlessly.

 

Or you can connect a 4k player to a 1080p HDTV and then upgrade your HDTV when you get ready and already have stuff to watch on it. Neat going to a theater and seeing old movies in 4k, it really preserves the film grain and everything. I still think it's a placebo unless you get a "wall-sized" display or a projector.