FPGA Based Videogame System

[jamon1567]

Maybe everyone who's upset about this should just start another petition to have them reopen pre-orders. Perhaps it'll work a second time around, and will be more constructive than bitching about it on a message board anyway.

 

Edit: It would at least be interesting to see how they respond. I think some people thought the petition was a ruse to begin with, so I'd be very curious to see what happens if a similar petition was started and received a similar amount of signatures. I pre-ordered one myself (even though I own an original Mini) because I thought there was a good chance we would get a few added bonuses, but I'd still sign it. I can see why people are upset about it and I'd like to see them have a chance at one now that the news is out.

Edited July 6, 2020 by jamon1567

[XtraSmiley]

42 minutes ago, CZroe said:

You're right. It was available for a week before it "sold out." Guess I was thinking of the moment they opened up for a few more preorders on April 21st.

Anyway, they stated it was limited every step of the way:


Even before that, they said they needed 1,000 people to commit to buying one through the petition. It was definitely ended early compared to other products, meaning they weren't kidding about limiting it. I figure it was probably expensive aluminum stock for machining the housing where they might have to commit to twice as many units if they went over a certain amount.

They only ended preorders for past products when it was time to finalize the quantity for the first manufacturing run, meaning it stayed open for months. That definitely wasn't the case here.

It's all marketing. Just like the fake, sign this petition so we can reproduce these, was.

 

I'm sure they needed a minimum order to get it going, they probably hit that and more. They limited it for a week so they can just do a run like they said, and then after, we the $550 buyers of this, fund their transition to the new FPGA and cheaper plastic shells, they will begin selling those next.

 

This isn't hiding some complex super secret 3D chess stuff, like the development of the atomic bomb, it's pretty basic. People read to much into this shit.

[CZroe]

Maybe everyone who's upset about this should just start another petition to have them reopen pre-orders. Perhaps it'll work a second time around, and will be more constructive than bitching about it on a message board anyway.

 

Edit: It would at least be interesting to see how they respond. I think some people thought the petition was a ruse to begin with, so I'd be very curious to see what happens if a similar petition was started and received a similar amount of signatures. I pre-ordered one myself (even though I own an original Mini) because I thought there was a good chance we would get a few added bonuses, but I'd still sign it. I can see why people are upset about it and I'd like to see them have a chance at one now that the news is out.

 

...and THAT would get all the owners banking on the "limited" aspect to cry "foul!"

 

It's all marketing. Just like the fake, sign this petition so we can reproduce these, was.

 

I'm sure they needed a minimum order to get it going, they probably hit that and more. They limited it for a week so they can just do a run like they said, and then after, we the $550 buyers of this, fund their transition to the new FPGA and cheaper plastic shells, they will begin selling those next.

 

This isn't hiding some complex super secret 3D chess stuff, like the development of the atomic bomb, it's pretty basic. People read to much into this shit.

Oh, there's no doubt that they had already decided to make another run before saying that they needed 1,000 signatures. I'm pretty sure it was done to take advantage of the incredible demand for this that had driven aftermarket prices into the thousands.

 

...but all indications are that it was truly limited. They wanted to sell their luxury model for several hundred dollars each before they undermine that market with a plastic Analogue 8. No other preorder "sold out" and this one clearly did.

 

[Sho]

8 hours ago, CZroe said:

Yeah, but if you have reason to think it isn't something you want to hold on to and you know preorders are limited then you are just depriving someone else (scalping) by preordering anyway. I get that this is the only time Analogue ever limited preorders but everyone just keep ignoring this when making their points/rationalizations for why everyone should have preordered.

If everyone preordered with baseless anticipation for features that were not promised or hinted at (and, indeed, strongly implied the contrary) then they would have ran out of preorders even sooner. Even fewer who genuinely want an Nt Mini could get one. As it was, they were already sold out on the second day.

People are gonna scalp anyways.  Or never use the console and resell later at a mark up.  I used to have that same qualm and justification to not do the same but not really anymore.

 

Originally, preorder window was up for exactly 1 week, right down to the hour -- so it's really unsure if it was just an open window to get as many preorders as possible before they worked to fulfill them or what.  The preorders you're talking about was likely people who cancelled their original ones.  Even so, people made a ton of excuses on why they didn't want to purchase the Noir.  A good chunk due to the cost being $500.  Trust me when I say if the preorders reopen there will be people making the same excuses again, or hemming and hawing, instead of pulling the trigger, especially with now increased information on what this thing will be able to do. 

 

To be fair, if it reopens I'm gonna purchase a second one for the express purpose of flipping it.  That's how sure I am that the Noir is gonna be stupidly expensive after it's long gone.

Edited July 6, 2020 by Sho

[jamon1567]

35 minutes ago, CZroe said:

...and THAT would get all the owners banking on the "limited" aspect to cry "foul!"

And when/if they release a cheaper version, people will cry about that too. Not that I don't disagree that this was pretty shitty on Analogues part, but whatever they do, people will find a way to be upset. I mean, as an owner of the original Nt Mini, I should be mad they're even making this again since it will (for sure now that the new one has better features) kill the value of my original. Taber even said at some point that they weren't revisiting the NES, so WTF?! I might be even more upset if/when they release a pared down version of the NES because at least the original Nt Mini would have been unique with it's analogue output built in, but doing another release of the upgraded Mini just makes the original a flawed version of itself. Honestly, now that I think about it a lil more, I am kinda upset 

Edited July 6, 2020 by jamon1567

[CZroe]

And when/if they release a cheaper version, people will cry about that too. Not that I don't disagree that this was pretty shitty on Analogues part, but whatever they do, people will find a way to be upset. I mean, as an owner of the original Nt Mini, I should be mad they're even making this again since it will (for sure now that the new one has better features) kill the value of my original. Taber even said at some point that they weren't revisiting the NES, so WTF?! I might be even more upset if/when they release a pared down version of the NES because at least the original Nt Mini would have been unique with it's analogue output built in, but doing another release of the upgraded Mini just makes the original a flawed version of itself. 

 

The difference is that the Analogue 8 doesn't break the promise of the Nt Mini Noir being "limited," though it may break this promise about not revisiting the NES. Making more Nt Minis when they had never officially officially ended production is neither revisiting nor breaking a promise.

 

I've been thinking Analogue 8 might also do 8-bit home computers too, like Atari and Commodore. After all, Kevtris knows 6502 and he's very familiar with the SID chip. If they actually plan to do cartridge adapters this time, perhaps it won't even have a default platform... hence the "8" instead of a reference to Nintendo ("Nt").

[jamon1567]

14 minutes ago, CZroe said:

The difference is that the Analogue 8 doesn't break the promise of the Nt Mini Noir being "limited," though it may break this promise about not revisiting the NES. Making more Nt Minis when they had never officially officially ended production is neither revisiting nor breaking a promise.

I'm ok with everything, just pointing out anyone can find a reason to be upset. Granted it is pretty easy to do so the way Analogue operates, and I've pointed out my share of their inadequacies as well, but nobody is ever gonna be happy so they may as well just keep doing what they're doing I guess.

[cacophony]

1 hour ago, CZroe said:

 

...but all indications are that it was truly limited. They wanted to sell their luxury model for several hundred dollars each before they undermine that market with a plastic Analogue 8. No other preorder "sold out" and this one clearly did.

 

 

Here's my theory: They know the eventual (and more lucrative) goal is to release a sub $200 plastic version of an 8 bit multi-console. But before they get there they figured they might as well make some $$ on the existing pent up demand for the Nt Mini by doing a single production run. They've expressed in the past that manufacturing the Nt Mini is kind of a pain, so they probably need a fair amount of advance notice on the quantity desired before doing the production run. After they opened preorders they were tracking how quickly orders came in and when it got close to 1 week the rate of orders had slowed to the point where it made more sense to just cut off orders. The much slower rate of order at 1 week was kind of confirmed by looking at the sequential order number values.  Had they left preorders opened till release they would have had to potentially commit to multiple runs to satisfy demand, which maybe they didn't want to do because of other product plans.

 

 

Edited July 6, 2020 by cacophony

[jamon1567]

3 minutes ago, cacophony said:

They've expressed in the past that manufacturing the Nt Mini is kind of a pain, so they probably need a fair amount of advance notice on the quantity desired before doing the production run.

Since you brought this up, it does kind of make the case for them NOT doing a cheaper version. It likely would have been much easier for them to just release something in the mold of the Super Nt and Mega Sg, yet they didn't. On top of that, a cheaper Nt Mini is actually what most people were clamoring for, so I'm not really sure what to think anymore. Maybe they just knew the Pocket wasn't gonna be happening any time soon due to covid or whatever else, and they made a last second decision to just do another run of the Nt Mini in the interim since they already had the design. 

[CZroe]

Since you brought this up, it does kind of make the case for them NOT doing a cheaper version. It likely would have been much easier for them to just release something in the mold of the Super Nt and Mega Sg, yet they didn't. On top of that, a cheaper Nt Mini is actually what most people were clamoring for, so I'm not really sure what to think anymore. Maybe they just knew the Pocket wasn't gonna be happening any time soon due to covid or whatever else, and they made a last second decision to just do another run of the Nt Mini in the interim since they already had the design. 

"Why not both?"

He and I are saying that they wanted to do both but they can't sell the old Nt Mini if they already announced the upgraded ~$190 unit. They had to do one final run before mentioning the Analogue 8. The Analogue 8 name getting out from the trademark filing or whatever it was is probably much to their chagrin since it prompted all this speculation and made it more difficult to sell the old Nt Mini in volume. Granted, we didn't exactly get another run of the old Nt Mini but I don't think they had committed to an upgraded one back when preorders started.

[jamon1567]

4 minutes ago, CZroe said:

"Why not both?"

He and I are saying that they wanted to do both but they can't sell the old Nt Mini if they already announced the upgraded ~$190 unit. They had to do one final run before mentioning the Analogue 8. The Analogue 8 name getting out from the trademark filing or whatever it was is probably much to their chagrin since it prompted all this speculation and made it more difficult to sell the old Nt Mini in volume. Granted, we didn't exactly get another run of the old Nt Mini but I don't think they had committed to an upgraded one back when preorders started.

 

Because the demand was for a cheaper version, it's a PITA for them to have the Nt Mini shells built, it was gonna piss people off (either the current frustration, or if they release a cheaper version, the people that are inevitably gonna be pissed they spent $300 more than they "needed to") and it's just all around wasted effort to both if they were planning on the cheaper version anyway.

[Sho]

I really think Analogue really just wanted to:

 

1) Satisfy a final demand for the Nt Mini.

 

and 

 

2) Really make the last run a limited run unto itself.

 

Taber really does echo as a Steve Jobs type, so he has a flair for the dramatic, and wanted to finally satisfy a big demand.  He then likely requested to Kevtris to update it, to which Kev agreed on.  This probably happened around late 2019 (Aug~October).  The reason why I say this is due to Kevtris saying he completely rewrote the core.  That would have had to have been around nowish for him to have it at a state that could be presented like in the YouTube video.  It's more likely than not in the testing phase for bugs (and Kev adding new features), something Kevtris has himself stated can take a very long time.  Kev has also mentioned that there is someone else working alongside him, so very likely splitting the duties for the Pocket & the Nt Mini now too.

 

Now no one can say they didn't have a chance at having a final Nt Mini run, despite the very lame marketing.  As everyone has noted or realized, the real value of the Nt Mini will now lay in the code which should be very easy to reconfigure into a smaller, cheaper device that has a more frequent run cycle.  That would allow them to retire the NT/Nt Mini/Noir as a legacy/collectible item as well.  Then they'll be full steam ahead with whatever comes (8?) and the Pocket. 

 

I'd say keep an eye on that supposed abandoned Analogue 8 trademark, especially around October-December 

Edited July 6, 2020 by Sho

[CZroe]

Because the demand was for a cheaper version...

Not according to the eBay prices on Nt Mini (THOUSANDS!). That's real demand, and there are obviously a lot more people willing to spend $500 (a fraction of that).

I don't think it would have taken much additional effort to continue making what they had never officially discontinued but, well, it was definitely extra effort the way they ultimately went. As you rightly point out, it isn't wasted when much of that effort is also going into the Analogue 8.

[CZroe]

I really think Analogue really just wanted to:
 
1) Satisfy a final demand for the Nt Mini.
 
and 
 
2) Really make the last run a limited run unto itself.
 
Taber really does echo as a Steve Jobs type, so he has a flair for the dramatic, and wanted to finally satisfy a big demand.  He then likely requested to Kevtris to update it, to which Kev agreed on.  This probably happened around late 2019 (Aug~October).  The reason why I say this is due to Kevtris saying he completely rewrote the core.  That would have had to have been around nowish for him to have it at a state that could be presented like in the YouTube.  It's more likely than not in the testing phase for bugs (and Kev adding new features), something Kevtris has himself stated can take a very long time.
 
Now no one can say they didn't have a chance at having a final Nt Mini run, despite the very lame marketing.  As everyone has noted or realized, the real value of the Nt Mini will now lay in the code which should be very easy to reconfigure into a smaller, cheaper device that has a more frequent run cycle.  That would allow them to retire the NT/Nt Mini/Noir as a legacy/collectible item as well.  Then they'll be full steam ahead with whatever comes (8?) and the Pocket. 
 
I'd say keep an eye on that supposed abandoned Analogue 8 trademark, especially around October-December 

Never for a second thought it was "abandoned," but I totally agree with the rest.

[Sho]

Just now, CZroe said:

Never for a second thought it was "abandoned," but I totally agree with the rest.

I can tell you for sure they stopped right at the pay us now for TM part of the trademark process.  It is very trivial for them to revive it.  ?

[jamon1567]

15 minutes ago, CZroe said:

Not according to the eBay prices on Nt Mini (THOUSANDS!). That's real demand, and there are obviously a lot more people willing to spend $500 (a fraction of that).

I don't think it would have taken much additional effort to continue making what they had never officially discontinued but, well, it was definitely extra effort the way they ultimately went. As you rightly point out, it isn't wasted when much of that effort is also going into the Analogue 8.

Just because people are willing to pay more doesn't mean that it's more profitable for Analogue. As for the effort involved, I'm pretty sure they've said on multiple occasions that it was difficult to source the aluminum shells. Couple that with covid throwing a wrench into even the most basic things, re-releasing the Mini was probably the most difficult thing for them to do. Which is what leads me to believe that it was a last second decision because covid also destroyed their plans for the Pocket (similarly to the Mini's aluminum shell, the Pocket was going to rely on a very hard to source screen which is no doubt now much harder to source) and they didn't have a ready made design for a cheaper Mini, aka Analogue 8. 

 

Either that or the Noir is just a Taber vanity project, which I suppose is possible as well....

[CZroe]

Just because people are willing to pay more doesn't mean that it's more profitable for Analogue. As for the effort involved, I'm pretty sure they've said on multiple occasions that it was difficult to source the aluminum shells. Couple that with covid throwing a wrench into even the most basic things, re-releasing the Mini was probably the most difficult thing for them to do. Which is what leads me to believe that it was a last second decision because covid also destroyed their plans for the Pocket (similarly to the Mini's aluminum shell, the Pocket was going to rely on a very hard to source screen which is no doubt now much harder to source) and they didn't have a ready made design for a cheaper Mini, aka Analogue 8. 
 
Either that or the Noir is just a Taber vanity project, which I suppose is possible as well....

Inflated price is the textbook definition for demand outstripping supply, so when you said "the demand was for a cheaper version" it was demonstrable that there was plenty of demand for a more expensive one too (people paying thousands on eBay)... and if you are going to do both it only makes sense to do that one first.

Yes, the aluminum housing adds complexity, expense, and is probably even what limits supply. The thing is, people were more than willing to pay for the extra expense and effort and Analogue was more than willing to let them, hence the Noir before the Analogue 8.

[jamon1567]

13 minutes ago, CZroe said:

Inflated price is the textbook definition for demand outstripping supply, so when you said "the demand was for a cheaper version" it was demonstrable that there was plenty of demand for a more expensive one too (people paying thousands on eBay)... and if you are going to do both it only makes sense to do that one first.

Yes, the aluminum housing adds complexity, expense, and is probably even what limits supply. The thing is, people were more than willing to pay for the extra expense and effort and Analogue was more than willing to let them, hence the Noir before the Analogue 8.

 

There was obviously demand for the Mini, but I think the far larger demand is for the cheaper version. Every time the Mini is even mentioned it's just a bunch of people bitching about "CHEAPER VESION PLZ!!!" Maybe that's just Twitter being Twitter, but it's the same thing here and on YouTube as well.

 

It's not just the aluminum housing either, but also the analog audio/video components that add to complexity and cost. Now I have no way of knowing this, but I doubt that they're making much more if any additional profit off of the Mini than they could/would from the 8 and it's cheaper less complex design. So again, why waste the time going through all of that if you plan on releasing the 8 down the road anyway? It just adds more headaches on your part and you have to deal with everyone bitching about it for one reason or another. Just release the 8 and get on with it.

 

Edit: I would also add that the decision to re-release the Mini and all the headaches that go along with it has also now led us to where we are today. An additional 4 month delay because of manufacturing, and a bunch of unhappy people. If their plan was what you outlined, they're probably regretting it right about now.

Edited July 6, 2020 by jamon1567

[Sho]

2 minutes ago, jamon1567 said:

There was obviously demand for the Mini, but I think the far larger demand is for the cheaper version. Every time the Mini is even mentioned it's just a bunch of people bitching about "CHEAPER VESION PLZ!!!" Maybe that's just Twitter being Twitter, but it's the same thing here and on YouTube as well.

 

It's not just the aluminum housing either, but also the analog audio/video components that add to complexity and cost. Now I have no way of knowing this, but I doubt that the they're making much more if any additional profit off of the Mini than they could/would from the 8 and it's cheaper less complex design. So again, why waste the time going through all of that if you plan on releasing the 8 down the road anyway. It just adds more headaches on your part and you have to deal with everyone bitching about it for one reason or another. Just release the 8 and get on with it.

I did question myself how much of a profit they truly make from an Nt Mini run.  However, the Nt Mini (and NT before it, as well as the CMVS & NEO) all came during a time when the productions were all tilted towards being works of art vs functionality.  So I'm willing to guess there really isn't much profit to be made despite all of them being very beautiful creations.

[turbo87]

Also I just noticed that on their website they are now stating Nov as the preorder delivery date instead of July. I never got an email notification about the delay. I wonder if this due to the virus or they need more time to work on all the changes that they highlighted. 

[jamon1567]

1 minute ago, Sho said:

I did question myself how much of a profit they truly make from an Nt Mini run.  However, the Nt Mini (and NT before it, as well as the CMVS & NEO) all came during a time when the productions were all tilted towards being works of art vs functionality.  So I'm willing to guess there really isn't much profit to be made despite all of them being very beautiful creations.

Yup, I'm int he same boat. So I really feel like they did another run because either A) this is truly the last time they plan on revisiting the NES, or B) it's just a Taber vanity project and/or a misguided marketing effort to appeal to collectors before they release the Analogue 8.

 

Now I know people will probably point to the "100% rewritten" core as proof that there will be a future Analogue 8 (or whatever it will go by), but until I see some further details, I really just think it's typical Analogue marketing. If they were going to put it on the new FPGA platform they're using, it was going to have to be rewritten regardless. That doesn't necessarily mean Kev went back and started from scratch, it just means it needed to be translated to the new hardware. And this may have even been a necessity if the old hardware could no longer be sourced, or they got a better price on the newer FPGA etc. If anyone has any further info on this from Discord or otherwise I'd be interested to hear it, but that's what I'm suspecting.

[jamon1567]

1 minute ago, turbo87 said:

Also I just noticed that on their website they are now stating Nov as the preorder delivery date instead of July. I never got an email notification about the delay. I wonder if this due to the virus or they need more time to work on all the changes that they highlighted. 

It's due to the virus, they explained it on Twitter. And no, they didn't send out any emails....something that you would expect, but....well....this is Analogue, and they have their own way of doing things....

[CZroe]

Also I just noticed that on their website they are now stating Nov as the preorder delivery date instead of July. I never got an email notification about the delay. I wonder if this due to the virus or they need more time to work on all the changes that they highlighted. 

They just announced the delay 3 days ago:

...along with all this:

It's going to be much better than they promised.

[jamon1567]

So moving past all the speculation and controversy, I'm not really sure what some of these improvements actually mean from the end user perspective. A few questions I have below if anyone can answer.

 

NES 2.0 ROM support. What will that allow that the previous Mini didn't?

 

300 mappers supported. How many were there for the original? Are these additional mappers new ones that are used in indy games and homebrew, or was there missing support for certain games in the original Mini?

 

FDS audio core and N163 audio core. Wasn't support for the FDS on the original Mini that you could actually plug one in and use the original hardware? If so, why would there have even been an audio core for the FDS? Does the enhanced audio core suggest that FDS will work fully through the jailbreak now? And just what is N163? Never heard of it....

 

What is controller pass-through and why would I want it?

 

What was optimized on the composite output?

[Sho]

37 minutes ago, jamon1567 said:

That doesn't necessarily mean Kev went back and started from scratch, it just means it needed to be translated to the new hardware. And this may have even been a necessity if the old hardware could no longer be sourced, or they got a better price on the newer FPGA etc. If anyone has any further info on this from Discord or otherwise I'd be interested to hear it, but that's what I'm suspecting.

While you're not wrong about moving it to the new hardware, he really did rewrite the entire thing:

 

 

Speaking on the FDS mapper & audio filters:

 

 

So what you should expect:

 

* 100% Rewritten NES Core

* Interpolation

* 300+ NES Mapper/Full NES 2.0 Support

* New FDS Sound Channel

* New N163 (Namco 163) expansion audio

* Fixed MMC5

* Fixed Mapper 64 (Tengen RAMBO-1)

* Lowpass filters for any/all audio channels

* Dendy Mode (Run NTSC Games in PAL w/ proper timing)

* Analogue DAC Compatibility

* Dual Output for playing & streaming

* Running [Flash] Cart IOs at lower voltage

* All of the previous features on the Nt Mini (NSF Player, Audio Toys, TIA Channel manipulation, etc)

* All of the previous Jailbreak cores from the original Nt Mini

* Intellivision JB Core

* SMS, Game Gear, Colecovision (?) Cores ported from the Mega SG

* New Unknown "Mystery" Core(s)

* SNES SPC700 Music Player

* Mandelbrot Zoomer

* And...:

 

 

Why did Kev rewrite the NES core?:

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 6, 2020 by Sho