FPGA Based Videogame System

[blzmarcel]

On 2/24/2021 at 7:52 AM, Pixelboy said:

2) Could an NES/Famicom game (designed for carts with 72/60 pins) be shoehorned into a 32-pin setup? Given that Turbografx-16 HuCards have more than 32 pins and Analogue actually created an adaptor for such HuCards, perhaps it's possible to do the same with NES games. Or maybe not, I dunno.

Even if it were possible to use NES cartridges with a Pocket, NES cartridges were fairly large, about twice as tall as a Famicom or Genesis/Mega Drive game and wider too. You would need some kind of adapter that either holds the game under the Pocket, or have it stick way out in the air, both of which likely wouldn't be very comfortable, practical, or be able to fit in any but the largest cargo pockets.

 

Sega was able to make the Nomad that used Genesis cartridges due to their rather compact size for a home console cartridge and NEC was able to make a portable that could run PC-Engine/TG-16 HuCards, which again was feasible mainly due to being relatively compact, though neither of those were pocket-able systems, as they both had a bit of bulk to them.

 

Famicom (and maybe SNES/SFC) games might be more workable, as they are short like a Genesis cartridge, but still a bit wider, so it would still be a rather bulky set up. But NA/EU style NES cartridges? It's hard to see a practical way to implement that. They were simply never meant to be used in a portable system.

[KAZ]

By the way, I like reading about the comparisons of analogue vs pi vs mister.  This info is useful and interesting tbh.

[Pixelboy]

4 minutes ago, blzmarcel said:

Even if it were possible to use NES cartridges with a Pocket, NES cartridges were fairly large, about twice as tall as a Famicom or Genesis/Mega Drive game and wider too. You would need some kind of adapter that either holds the game under the Pocket, or have it stick way out in the air, both of which likely wouldn't be very comfortable, practical, or be able to fit in any but the largest cargo pockets.

 

Sega was able to make the Nomad that used Genesis cartridges due to their rather compact size for a home console cartridge and NEC was able to make a portable that could run PC-Engine/TG-16 HuCards, which again was feasible mainly due to being relatively compact, though neither of those were pocket-able systems, as they both had a bit of bulk to them.

 

Famicom (and maybe SNES/SFC) games might be more workable, as they are short like a Genesis cartridge, but still a bit wider, so it would still be a rather bulky set up. But NA/EU style NES cartridges? It's hard to see a practical way to implement that. They were simply never meant to be used in a portable system.

I don't think you understood what I was talking about. Please go back and read the other posts around the one you quoted.

 

[Mattelot]

For the Super NT, I noticed on the JB 6.9, the default 4.5x resolution was 1234x1080 and on 7.0, it's 1315x1080.  Even with 1315x1080, it doesn't quite fill my screen from top to bottom.  I had to raise the vertical to something like 1115.  I tried the 1153 recommended from the last JB and it seem information gets cut off.

 

I did find out that the horizontal positioning was fixed in 7.0 which is great.  I'm just trying to get the perfect "fit my screen" with aspect ratio.

[blzmarcel]

1 hour ago, NE146 said:

Heh dont even bother. The guy for the past couple of years keeps pretending to be concerned about one minor bug or other, but he doesn't really care, even if they get fixed (and when they do he'll find another). His real agenda since day one was always just to shit on Analogue products as "inferior"  'Course no one cares.

You aren't unique here.. so play the Mister man. See how easy that is.  because like you it makes makes zero difference to us here who like to exercise ALL options at our fingertips and have them available on a dime.

Assuming you're referring to vanfanel, he did state several facts. I have seen and heard the tearing and audio issues that he mentioned first hand, so he is right, and so far no one has addressed that, neither by you nor Mattlelot, who described the MiSTer implementionations as "garbage", which from what I have also witnessed first hand as a friend of mine has one set up, every core we have tried works really well and does not have those issues mentioned before. There was also a very recent update adding 5x crop capability to most of the main cores which also works really well.

[Mattelot]

31 minutes ago, blzmarcel said:

Assuming you're referring to vanfanel, he did state several facts. I have seen and heard the tearing and audio issues that he mentioned first hand, so he is right, and so far no one has addressed that, neither by you nor Mattlelot, who described the MiSTer implementionations as "garbage", which from what I have also witnessed first hand as a friend of mine has one set up, every core we have tried works really well and does not have those issues mentioned before. There was also a very recent update adding 5x crop capability to most of the main cores which also works really well.

I've never seen nor ever heard of that issue.  

 

And I referred to "some" implementations, not all.  But I clearly stated more than once and even elaborated on my definition of "garbage", that it's from a personal view.  I did not state opinions and clearly label them as "facts."  Huge difference, I'm afraid.  I've also clearly stated that if it's your preferred platform, good for you.  I hope it works out to your wildest expectations, meets all your needs and lasts you for a long time.  Different strokes for different folks is a lost concept to some.

Edited February 25, 2021 by Mattelot

[NE146]

28 minutes ago, blzmarcel said:

Assuming you're referring to vanfanel, he did state several facts. I have seen and heard the tearing and audio issues that he mentioned first hand, so he is right, and so far no one has addressed that, neither by you nor Mattlelot, who described the MiSTer implementionations as "garbage", which from what I have also witnessed first hand as a friend of mine has one set up, every core we have tried works really well and does not have those issues mentioned before. There was also a very recent update adding 5x crop capability to most of the main cores which also works really well.

Right.. but my point is, then play the MiSter. That's what I do.  And please, don't mix up people with that vague sentence that seems to even remotely tie me in with saying the MiSter is garbage. What the heck.. I love mine. I also love my analogue consoles.  And I also love the Rpi & computer emulation and original consoles on CRT. It's simple. I like video games.

 

[cacophony]

6 hours ago, Mattelot said:

I only speak for myself (as stated) but I'm a perfectionist when it comes to my hobbies, more than most who claim they are.  I have to have things pristine.  To me, if something in my hobby is not pristine, it's garbage.  That may seem unfair but as I've stated, that's just to me.  I do not say that as a public label.  While some aspects of Mister were good, others did not impress me (personally).  I'm not going to get into the specifics as it ends up being a pointless back/forth like when you get some Pi fan who insists that his Pi has 0 lag, is a 1:1 recreation, reference quality, etc.  After a certain point, you know they're just rationalizing and not worth continuing the conversation.  I do not mean any disrespect.

 

I understand. Different people have different priorities in terms of what they value. For somebody that values using carts, design aesthetics, and true plug and play (for carts at least) then Analogue is the obvious choice.

 

I personally value the accuracy of recreation over all else, so MiSTer is looking a bit more interesting at this point. But I still enjoy all my Analogue consoles.

[Mattelot]

FPGA technology is getting better and better, so who knows what we'll have around the corner.  I'm excited to see where it goes.  Not sure if something better than FPGA will come out or if we'll get FPGAs that can do flawless 4K (or more).

[RobDangerous]

I tried an Amiga 1200 like setup with whdload on the MiSter and ran into graphics or audio glitches with about every fourth game I tried which doesn't happen on my real A1200 (which runs on an 68030 which the MiSter can not do but that should in theory make my A1200 less compatible to old games, not more). Going down to an Amiga 500 also isn't very fun without ipf support (which is not directly the fault of the MiSter devs but that doesn't make it less of a problem). Other systems I tried worked fine but I miss the 60Hz adjustments Analogue's systems do - can only use some of the MiSter cores in zero-lag mode. MiSter is great but it's not perfect and when the things don't work that are important to you, you can have a shitty time with it - as it happened to me. But nothing is perfect they say and that's usually true.

[cacophony]

11 minutes ago, RobDangerous said:

Other systems I tried worked fine but I miss the 60Hz adjustments Analogue's systems do - can only use some of the MiSter cores in zero-lag mode. MiSter is great but it's not perfect and when the things don't work that are important to you, you can have a shitty time with it - as it happened to me. But nothing is perfect they say and that's usually true.

Yeah, if your monitor doesn't support the actual console's native refresh rate then Analogue's 60Hz output definitely helps because every monitor supports it. 

[SegaSnatcher]

42 minutes ago, Mattelot said:

nd I referred to "some" implementations, not all.  But I clearly stated more than once and even elaborated on my definition of "garbage", that it's from a personal view.  

I'm sorry, but I feel calling the MiSTer project "garbage" is total disrespect to all the developers who have put in so much work into that project.  Maybe its not for you, but it definitely is not garbage.  I think we should use the word "garbage" for products that actually deserve that title.  If you played the TG-16/CD, NES, Genesis, SNES, Neo-Geo and GBA cores the last thing you would think was the word "garbage".  

Also, you say you want pristine products, well if this is what you are after then you best bet is to stick with original hardware, because nothing outside that will give you this so called "pristine" that you are looking for.  Again, I own both Analogue products and MiSTer and neither is perfect, but they are both excellent.  
 

[NE146]

'Course aside from actual cart action, other things I get from the NT-Mini for example that I don't get from MiSter is the ease of using actual NES controllers, and composite output to my cheapo consumer CRTs. Of course both are possible on MiSter but it's not exactly out of the box. 

[SegaSnatcher]

1 minute ago, NE146 said:

'Course aside from actual cart action, other things I get from the NT-Mini for example that I don't get from MiSter is the ease of using actual NES controllers, and composite output to my cheapo consumer CRTs. Of course both are possible on MiSter but it's not exactly out of the box. 

Well to be fair NT is also a $500 product, so I would expect some extra features.

[NE146]

3 minutes ago, SegaSnatcher said:

Well to be fair NT is also a $500 product, so I would expect some extra features.

Same deal with the SuperNT & MegaSG. Obviously the original controller support, and granted.. composite output with the $75 DAC.  But that total cost is not super far off from a MiSter setup (DE10 Nano + SDRAM + IO board, + case + whatever cost and effort to get composite output / controller support). 

[Mattelot]

6 minutes ago, SegaSnatcher said:

I'm sorry, but I feel calling the MiSTer project "garbage" is total disrespect to all the developers who have put in so much work into that project.  Maybe its not for you, but it definitely is not garbage.  I think we should use the word "garbage" for products that actually deserve that title.  If you played the TG-16/CD, NES, Genesis, SNES, Neo-Geo and GBA cores the last thing you would think was the word "garbage".  

Also, you say you want pristine products, well if this is what you are after then you best bet is to stick with original hardware, because nothing outside that will give you this so called "pristine" that you are looking for.  Again, I own both Analogue products and MiSTer and neither is perfect, but they are both excellent.  

I didn't call the Mister project garbage.  I said some implementations.  At first, I thought "Why do I have to keep reiterating this?" but if you only read that one post, I could understand.  If somebody thought that the NT Mini Noir's Genesis core was garbage, that's their opinion.  They're not saying the NT Mini Noir itself is garbage.

 

The product itself is fine, it's just not for me personally.  

[+Gemintronic]

The Mega SG runs my sega genesis homebrew like your typical genesis clone: with super sped up music.  This doesn't happen on original hardware or hardware clones like the JVC X'Eye.

 

The MiSTer just updated their core so my games play like original hardware.  So, for now: MiSTer 1  Mega SG 0

 

The neat thing is both systems are FPGA so it's just a matter of who gets updates and enhancements more often.

[SegaSnatcher]

1 minute ago, Mattelot said:

I didn't call the Mister project garbage.  I said some implementations.  At first, I thought "Why do I have to keep reiterating this?" but if you only read that one post, I could understand.  If somebody thought that the NT Mini Noir's Genesis core was garbage, that's their opinion.  They're not saying the NT Mini Noir itself is garbage.

 

The product itself is fine, it's just not for me personally.  

That is totally fair.   And anyone who has known me for the past couple of years knows I was extremely critical of the MiSTer project in the early days, so I totally understand some of the reasons why it wouldn't be for everyone, I just thought your original "garbage" comment wasn't fair, but I guess you expanded on that in later posts.   

At the end of the day us gamers are pretty spoiled with choices and that isn't such a bad thing lol.  I love having different options and I'm accepting that no 1 product will likely cover all basis for me.  

[Mattelot]

Just now, SegaSnatcher said:

That is totally fair.   And anyone who has known me for the past couple of years knows I was extremely critical of the MiSTer project in the early days, so I totally understand some of the reasons why it wouldn't be for everyone, I just thought your original "garbage" comment wasn't fair, but I guess you expanded on that in later posts.   

At the end of the day us gamers are pretty spoiled with choices and that isn't such a bad thing lol.  I love having different options and I'm accepting that no 1 product will likely cover all basis for me.  

Exactly.  

 

Has anyone tried using these FPGA consoles on a OLED TV?  I've been curious about that and don't find many videos on it.

[Kaide]

7 minutes ago, Mattelot said:

Exactly.  

 

Has anyone tried using these FPGA consoles on a OLED TV?  I've been curious about that and don't find many videos on it.

I guess what is your specific question? I’ve been using an OLED TV for retro consoles since before the Super NT came out.

[Mattelot]

Have you used it on a OLED and non-OLED?  What do you think of the OLED's quality?

 

I have a "man cave" that I've been building and I'm going to be moving my Analogue consoles from my livingroom into the cave.  I'll be buying a TV for the room and I'm debating between OLED and another QLED.  Cost isn't an issue.  I use a QLED in my livingroom, so I know what it looks like but if retro games look more impressive on OLED, I may teeter in that direction.

[Kaide]

37 minutes ago, Mattelot said:

Have you used it on a OLED and non-OLED?  What do you think of the OLED's quality?

 

I have a "man cave" that I've been building and I'm going to be moving my Analogue consoles from my livingroom into the cave.  I'll be buying a TV for the room and I'm debating between OLED and another QLED.  Cost isn't an issue.  I use a QLED in my livingroom, so I know what it looks like but if retro games look more impressive on OLED, I may teeter in that direction.

 

Quality in terms of what? Color? Contrast? Viewing Angles? Motion? Image-Retention? But really there’s nothing between different panel technology that to me says someone should go OLED vs LCD when discussing retro gaming. 

 

Color accuracy is close enough that both are equally good (assuming we are talking about Samsung QLED/MVA panels, and LG OLED panels). Contrast and viewing angles go to OLED. MVA panels that Samsung is fond of using in TVs bloom when using zone dimming, and can still leak considerable light leading to elevated black without zone dimming. Mostly an issue in darker rooms. MVA panels also aren’t great at wide viewing angles, while OLED is more in line with IPS LCD panels.  

 

Image Retention goes to QLED or any other LCD-based tech. It doesn’t bother me since my use keeps it minor enough I only notice with single color backgrounds (similar to dirty screen effect), but it is something I’ve had to deal with using OLED. 

 

Motion depends a lot on the controller driving the panel, although the tech can affect what you can do. QLED/LCD and OLED are both sample-and-hold tech, which will mess with how your brain interprets what it sees, causing visual artifacts that way. My old Sony 1080p LCD had a feature to strobe the LED backlight at 480Hz. This was great for film and other stuff in the 24-30fps range, since it got incredibly close to the look of CRT when it came to motion clarity. LCD/QLED needs time to transition between frames, which tends to “smear” the frames and blur them. Strobing the backlight helps “reset” the brain’s visual processing between frames, much like projectors and CRTs do. OLED has no backlight, so you can’t do this strobing trick the same way. Sony recently started offering a sort of “rolling blackout” on their OLED panels at 120Hz which helps, but because of the pandemic I haven’t seen one in person yet with the feature enabled. But I’m watching this particular addition closely. 

 

With both OLED and LCD/QLED, the effects of sample and hold can be lessened by higher frame rates. So 60 FPS gaming will look fine on both sets. I’d give the edge slightly to OLED since you get a slightly crisper motion, thanks to the faster response times, but I honestly kinda prefer the “blur” of 24-30fps LCD than the “double-image” I get from 24-30fps OLED. So newer consoles that have games running at 30fps to me at least, don’t look as good in motion on OLED as they do a good LCD-based panel with a strobing backlight. But really my ranking for TVs in motion clarity tends to be: LCD w/Strobing Backlight > OLED > LCD w/o Strobing Backlight.

 

When it comes to my next TV, it’s going to be about trying to find a “good enough” balance between contrast and motion clarity for me.  It might mean going back to a full-array backlit LCD of some kind.

Edited February 25, 2021 by Kaide

[vanfanel]

4 hours ago, KAZ said:

 

I dont like the lag on a pi.  I cant go back to that.

 

 

I use to think the same, but try the Genesis Plus GX core or the MESEN core on the Raspberry Pi 4 BUT disable vsync and enable 1-buffer mode on the RetroArch video options: you will be surprised to find the exact same lag you find on an FPGA MegaDrive/Genesis implementation and the same level of correctness

In fact, for Master System games you will be better server with RetroArch running a Pi 4 in single-buffer mode + no vsync + no threaded video + 45ms audio buffer than you will be with the MegaSG and it's poor attempt at a Master System mode.

 

However, RetroArch defaults to triple buffering + threaded video on the Pi to fake performance an pretend the thing is able to emulate a PSX (when it is NOT), which gives the Pi the bad reputation about input lag.

Edited February 25, 2021 by vanfanel

[adamchevy]

Yeah, if your monitor doesn't support the actual console's native refresh rate then Analogue's 60Hz output definitely helps because every monitor supports it. 

 

I play my noir on a 144hz hdmi 2.0 panel that supports free and G sync. It would be great to see support for higher than 60hz and Free/G sync. Although I’m not sure if it would make that much difference for nes games.

 

I have both component and hdmi support on my plasma. I really need to see how that looks. It might look better than my 144hz LCD monitor.

[Steven Pendleton]

7 hours ago, Gemintronic said:

The Mega SG runs my sega genesis homebrew like your typical genesis clone: with super sped up music.  This doesn't happen on original hardware or hardware clones like the JVC X'Eye.

Did you try the YM3438 busy behaviour option?