FPGA Based Videogame System

[kevtris]

The RGB cables from monoprice are RGBHV; however my monitor only has RGBS. I suppose I could go the SCART route if I needed to, but is there a way to make RGBHV work on my monitor without the need of a converter box of some sort?

this is the cable I use. in composite synch mode, both of those output the same signal, so you can use either H or V

[atmn]

That's what I'm thinking. Will know soon enough; ordered the Monoprice cables today (the full suite).

OK, nice. Dont have any device that work with cables from monoprice.

 

I tried the euroscart cable from retrocables.uk and was bypassing the caps. Got a different result, Some artifacts was showing AND the missing color seemed to be blue. Used the cap again and the red was missing again.

 

Has anyone a working euroscart with the Nt mini?

 

 

 

I wonder what kind of encoder is used in the Nt mini for the analogue, would be intresting to read som documentation.

Im not willing to take mine apart for another 360 days or so..

[funkwad]

Just tried Gameboy core...wow very cool

 

quick question - is there a way to stretch to near full-screen? I went into the core specific settings and attempted to adjust the screen but didn't see any effect. Does it not stretch maybe on RGB?

Edited March 13, 2017 by funkwad

[kevtris]

Just tried Gameboy core...wow very cool

 

quick question - is there a way to stretch to near full-screen? I went into the core specific settings and attempted to adjust the screen but didn't see any effect. Does it not stretch maybe on RGB?

the RGB/analog outputs are fixed resolution and don't allow for stretching or scaling. This is because there's not really enough pixels to do it.

[coderkind]

OK, nice. Dont have any device that work with cables from monoprice.

 

I tried the euroscart cable from retrocables.uk and was bypassing the caps. Got a different result, Some artifacts was showing AND the missing color seemed to be blue. Used the cap again and the red was missing again.

 

Has anyone a working euroscart with the Nt mini?

 

 

 

I wonder what kind of encoder is used in the Nt mini for the analogue, would be intresting to read som documentation.

Im not willing to take mine apart for another 360 days or so..

Will report back my experience with the Monoprice cables. I'm dying to try the Nt mini out on my BVM; it's been decades since I've played Duck Hunt.

 

the RGB/analog outputs are fixed resolution and don't allow for stretching or scaling. This is because there's not really enough pixels to do it.

The Gameboy core is great, thank you once again for your work. Do you have any plans for allowing adjusting of the colour palette with GB games?

[kevtris]

Will report back my experience with the Monoprice cables. I'm dying to try the Nt mini out on my BVM; it's been decades since I've played Duck Hunt.

 

The Gameboy core is great, thank you once again for your work. Do you have any plans for allowing adjusting of the colour palette with GB games?

yeah there will eventually be an option for it.

[cacophony]

yeah there will eventually be an option for it.

 

Does that mean there will be a way to add color to regular Gameboy games? If so, would there be only 4 possible colors?

[rezb1t]

Follow up! Analogue got back to me and said they couldn't exactly reproduce some of the issues I had. For instance, various Sony PVMs they had all displayed the picture fine. However, RGB was still showing the wrong colors when used with the framemeister and other devices. Also every other analog video output seemed to have the wrong color scheme, like what I saw.

 

I don't know why some of their results differed from mine, maybe I made some kind of mistake, but I've been told they're taking a deeper look into the problem and have shipped out a replacement for the meantime!

 

So maybe it wasn't pin 1? Red was missing for me on every device I tried as well as R-Y and composite.. Ah well, I'm just glad it's being addressed and I hope anyone else with the issues gets help from support as well

Edited March 14, 2017 by rezb1t

[Great Hierophant]

Ahh yes, here's an example:

no artifacting.pngartifacting.png

 

Maybe not the best example, of the four major composite artifact color schemes, Apple, IBM, Tandy and Atari, Atari comes off the worst because the colors were unpredictable from computer to computer.

Edited March 14, 2017 by Great Hierophant

[Keatah]

Do you have a better example to show?

[funkwad]

Someone sent me a message wanting to see the 7800 core in action..I captured the following and thought I would share some footage here

 

This is via HDMI out. looks/plays fan-f'in'tastic

 

[Andromeda Stardust]

 

This makes me wonder if someday when CRT's become extremely rare and need hardware replacements and/or repairs for preservation similar to how consoles do if they will also get the FPGA treatment. I'm thinking something alone the lines of the tube and case of let's say a Sony Trinitron staying original but if you open it up instead of a big mess of wiring there is an FPGA board in there leaving most of the case empty. And the FPGA wouldn't just replicate the internals of a Sony Trinitron but the internals of every CRT with all of their features. By features I mean the specs we used to look at when choosing a CRT like does it have picture and picture, does it have a 3D comb filter, is it NTSC or PAL, does it have a degausser, etc. In other words, it wouldn't lack any features that every CRT had and therefore it would be like the ultimate universal CRT FPGA board replacement that could be fitted into any make and model of CRT. The cases could even be modified for more video inputs and maybe internally have bigger and better speakers since there would be more room for them. What displays on the screen when accessing the menus with the remote would be like playing the ROM's and/or cores of all CRT's.

All this and the kitchen sink; even if they did make it visually indistinguishable from a CRT (doubtful but it may be possible to come close with an HDR 4k OLED), your lightguns still won't work on it.

[kevtris]

Someone sent me a message wanting to see the 7800 core in action..I captured the following and thought I would share some footage here

 

This is via HDMI out. looks/plays fan-f'in'tastic

 

your version of commando has a bad header. There's no pokey sound for this reason. (see the readme if you are handy with a hex editor, since I address this game specifically)

[Andromeda Stardust]

 

Would I have any problem running a 16KB total sized Galaxian ROM, or must it be 24KB?

 

With Galaxian the 8kb PRG absolutely needs to be padded (duplicated) to 16kb to work on flash carts or embedded emulators. This produces a ROM file that is in spec with the iNES standard, which does not allow for bank sizes not whole multiples of 16. The iNES ROM supplied by the latest No_Intro sets is 16kb (16 byte header + 8kb PRG + 8kb CHR) and has the PRG banks set to zero in the header. Unlike CHR RAM mappers, you cannot have a PRG with zero banks because where is the game data? This is how he flashcart or emulator will interpret the ROM, unless a special exception is made for this one game.

[atmn]

Follow up! Analogue got back to me and said they couldn't exactly reproduce some of the issues I had. For instance, various Sony PVMs they had all displayed the picture fine. However, RGB was still showing the wrong colors when used with the framemeister and other devices. Also every other analog video output seemed to have the wrong color scheme, like what I saw.

 

I don't know why some of their results differed from mine, maybe I made some kind of mistake, but I've been told they're taking a deeper look into the problem and have shipped out a replacement for the meantime!

 

So maybe it wasn't pin 1? Red was missing for me on every device I tried as well as R-Y and composite.. Ah well, I'm just glad it's being addressed and I hope anyone else with the issues gets help from support as well

 

Good to hear that they really checked it out.

It seems your Minis pin1 aint completely dead since it can produce a valid signal.

 

Wonder why anyone use the framemeister with this analogue port? Testing I suppose.

 

Tried without the caps and the blue was missing, and with some picture artifacts. Guess I need caps to block some signals.

 

Analogue could take my device if I wanted to test it out, think Ill wait if you get anymore information. Starting to get crazy about this. Is it the cable, is it the console, does anyone have a working euroscart configuration to a CRT-TV..

The cases I've heard working is useing a PVMish device.

Edited March 14, 2017 by atmn

[gulps]

 

Analogue could take my device if I wanted to test it out, think Ill wait if you get anymore information. Starting to get crazy about this. Is it the cable, is it the console, does anyone have a working euroscart configuration to a CRT-TV..

The cases I've heard working is useing a PVMish device.

 

Hi!

 

Finally... Are there any issues with the Euroscart cable? I hope it will work well and your problem has solved soon!

 

 

I'm planning too to use the Euroscart (RGB mode) output on a B&O MX4000 CRT-TV.

 

 

--

 

 

PD: Nice work kevtris! Another fan here from your work

[atmn]

 

Hi!

 

Finally... Are there any issues with the Euroscart cable? I hope it will work well and your problem has solved soon!

 

 

I'm planning too to use the Euroscart (RGB mode) output on a B&O MX4000 CRT-TV.

 

 

--

 

 

PD: Nice work kevtris! Another fan here from your work

 

I dont seem to get all the RGB colors at the same time. Please get back to me how it goes with your B&O and euroscart.

I have one B&O in my storeage, should try that one aswell.

 

The only you need to do is connect +5V from the USB to Vcc in your cable because there is no +5V out of the D15 connector for the RGB blanking signal (180ohm resistor between +5V and scart pin16). Think B&O must have this signal since you cant force it to the RGB channel manually (i think)

At least I havent found that mode on mine B&O.

 

The only one that can force it to RGB channel by switching to it is mine cheapass noname branding TV, but the RGB is super crisp on it.

[gulps]

 

I dont seem to get all the RGB colors at the same time. Please get back to me how it goes with your B&O and euroscart.

I have one B&O in my storeage, should try that one aswell.

 

The only you need to do is connect +5V from the USB to Vcc in your cable because there is no +5V out of the D15 connector for the RGB blanking signal (180ohm resistor between +5V and scart pin16). Think B&O must have this signal since you cant force it to the RGB channel manually (i think)

At least I havent found that mode on mine B&O.

 

The only one that can force it to RGB channel by switching to it is mine cheapass noname branding TV, but the RGB is super crisp on it.

 

 

Ok, I see the PDF (Nt_mini_SCART_Information_rev.2.pdf) at the Analogue documentation:

 

Analogue: Using Analog Video output with the Nt mini

https://support.analogue.co/hc/en-us/articles/115000923948-Using-Analog-Video-output-with-the-Nt-mini

 

 

I see the cable can be connected to USB port to get the 5v for Euroscart-Pin16 (Blanking signal up RGB-selection voltage up: 1v/3v → RGB).

 

 

I see at the ANALOGUE Nt mini Pinout (DE-15 ~ VGA like) from the PDF that Pin9 and Pin12 aren't connected.

 

The Pin9 on the VGA cable connectors are for KEY/PWR (formerly key, now +5V DC). That means that is missing on the Analogue NT Mini, and maybe could be posible to "insert" at the PCB soldering from the USB 5v feed (USB Pin1 / or at the PCB).

 

 

Now I understand!

 

 

--

 

 

Wich TV brand has feeding your issues with the RGB?

[atmn]

 

 

Ok, I see the PDF (Nt_mini_SCART_Information_rev.2.pdf) at the Analogue documentation:

 

Analogue: Using Analog Video output with the Nt mini

https://support.analogue.co/hc/en-us/articles/115000923948-Using-Analog-Video-output-with-the-Nt-mini

 

 

I see the cable can be connected to USB port to get the 5v for Euroscart-Pin16 (Blanking signal up RGB-selection voltage up: 1v/3v → RGB).

 

 

I see at the ANALOGUE Nt mini Pinout (DE-15 ~ VGA like) from the PDF that Pin9 and Pin12 aren't connected.

 

The Pin9 on the VGA cable connectors are for KEY/PWR (formerly key, now +5V DC). That means that is missing on the Analogue NT Mini, and maybe could be posible to "insert" at the PCB soldering from the USB 5v feed (USB Pin1 / or at the PCB).

 

 

Now I understand!

 

 

--

 

 

Wich TV brand has feeding your issues with the RGB?

 

That is not a bad idea actually. Even better to pull +5V somewhere where there is only power upon power on. USB is always powered when console have DC connected due to charge the controller at any time.

This modification im not willing to do for another year for the warranty. The mod should not be hard to do.

 

Problem now pulling power from the USB is that its always power on, meaning it always wants to tell the TV to use the RGB.

Im planning to solve this with simply disconnect the Nt Mini with a scart-switch with physical buttons. An auto scart switch will work.

 

The TV called "Centrum"

Havent any issues with RGB before, SFC, NESRGB, PCEwRGB mod, Genesis, PS1/2 work like a charm w RGB.

[gulps]

 

Think B&O must have this signal since you cant force it to the RGB channel manually (i think)

At least I havent found that mode on mine B&O.

 

I haven't the mode on mine B&O to force RGB. I checked the service menu too and it can't be selected.

Yes, this is auto selected from the SCART line.

[Schizophretard]

All this and the kitchen sink; even if they did make it visually indistinguishable from a CRT (doubtful but it may be possible to come close with an HDR 4k OLED), your lightguns still won't work on it.

Maybe it could work if someday flat panels have extremely high refresh rates. Something like if you could view it in very slow motion it would look like a beam is drawing the screen. But it would only look like a beam is drawing the screen because each frame would be the whole screen but it would be colored in by the colors of the beam emulation while the rest of the screen is just being colored in black. In other words, it wouldn't just be indistinguishable to the human eye but indistinguishable by how it is drawing the image because each frame that is an emulation of a CRT frame would really be made up of many full digital frames. As an example of the extremely high refresh rates, you could get a video camera, record looking at an actual CRT, and then when you play the video back in very slow motion frame by frame you would see that it recorded the CRT drawing the screen.

 

However, flat panels with that kind of technology in them may be far off into the future and/or making TV's that could do that many frames may never exist because getting to that many frames may not ever have any use for the average consumer. That is why until then I think it is more practical to maintain and repair CRT's. One of those repairs may be an FPGA that could be universally used for all CRT's instead of having to recap the boards of each CRT being repaired. To be clear, I'm not necessarily talking about using FPGA's for that today other than maybe someone doing it for the fun of it because today we can easily find functioning CRT's. I'm talking about when pretty much all the CRT's that exist are ones that need repaired, or it is very hard to find a CRT to fit your needs, most CRT's are expensive rarities, etc. So, it would be kind of like how today people repair, refurbish, and maybe modify consoles then sell them. But instead there would be people repairing, refurbishing, and maybe modifying CRT's for retro gaming use or other hobbies to do with CRT's.

 

To paint a hypothetical future maybe 10 to 15 years or however far off from now. You enter my game room to see all my carts for all of my systems wrapped up in individual baggies with cards in them with information like their label variations, some games still in boxes with clear hard cases around them, some loose manuals in baseball card like albums, my consoles either put up in their boxes with plastic around them or dust covers over the loose consoles,etc. You look around and then ask,"I appreciate your OCD organization. It all looks nice but I feel more like I'm in a retro gaming museum than a retro gaming room. It doesn't look very practical to play them because you have to unwrap everything to create a mess and then clean up the mess when you are done. So, how do you play them?" I answer,"See that box right there on top of my fireplace TV stand under my flat panel?" You answer,"Yes." I respond,"Well, that is the Z5K. It is the last FPGA console that Kevtris made before Elon offered him that job on the Mars colony. It plays every console in this room and even many consoles I don't own. It is compatible with all controllers and accessories. It has all video outputs." You respond,"Oh yeah. I've been thinking about getting one but they are getting expensive on eBay! But you have an NES Zapper out. So, you must have been playing light gun games but I only see a flat panel?" I answer,"Yeah, I just use the flat panel for the HD systems and when I'm in the mood to play retro games that look okay to me on it depending on my mood. You see, that fireplace TV stand is really a console CRT playing a fireplace video." You respond,"Oh yeah, it is one and it does look a lot like a fireplace TV stand. But it looks new with not even a scratch on it. Where did you find a console CRT in that condition?" I answer,"That is the Analogue Gaming TV Classic. Analogue got a tube from a CRT, put it in that custom wooden case they designed, inside it runs on an FPGA, and on the back it has all the A/V inputs you could ever need." You respond,"That's cool! But what about when that tube fails?" I answer,"I just send it back to Analogue, they put in a new tube of the same size, and then add a core to the FPGA for the model that matches that tube. For an example, if they put in a Sony Trinitron then they put in a core for the internals of that specific model of Trinitron. I'm not sure exactly how it works but the FPGA also has in it what they need to adjust the screen to its optimal settings. Instead of going inside and installing magnets in the right spots or whatever old school TV repairmen did to readjust screens they, to my understanding, have a very sophisticated service menu that allows them to readjust everything without having to go inside." You respond,"That's cool but sounds very expensive." I answer,"Yes, it is but it is much more cheaper than buying one of those museum quality CRT's. It was around the price that I paid for the flat panel above it. And even though it is expensive they did things to keep the cost down. For an example, the FPGA they use is universal to all tubes so they don't have to do everything that needs to be done internally on a case by case basis. They also offer customized cases for the most common TV sizes. So, you can pick the size that you can afford. Another thing they do is rank the quality of the tubes like how much life they have left in them, for an example. So, you can also look at the rankings and choose which you can afford. It is a very convenient service."

[Wolf_]

I mentioned this earlier but I guess it was overlooked, anyways to reiterate:
The makers of bliss box have a working lcd lightgun prototype they've named the interfacer. They had working demo footage of it up 6 months ago but for some reason Bliss box doesn't seem to do well with kickstarter and keeps using them to fund things so who knows what the eta is on it. Also they claim it works with both variations of lightgun.

[Schizophretard]

I mentioned this earlier but I guess it was overlooked, anyways to reiterate:

The makers of bliss box have a working lcd lightgun prototype they've named the interfacer. They had working demo footage of it up 6 months ago but for some reason Bliss box doesn't seem to do well with kickstarter and keeps using them to fund things so who knows what the eta is on it. Also they claim it works with both variations of lightgun.

I didn't overlook it.

[Wolf_]

Dumbest post I've half-read in a while. Scanlines are there for a reason, 240p = half the lines of resolution. By filling in the scanlines with additional image you just make things look blocky. For me, they are essential to the experience, smoothing out the harsh edges and making it a lot more pleasant to the eyes. If it weren't for the option in my framemeister and nt mini, I'd probably just use emulators. So speak for yourself, these games were designed with scanlines in mind, not the other way around.

You should have read the whole post. Instead you said something incredibly dumb. I never said to "fill in" the scanlines. Just that if you think covering up half the image makes it look better and that is acceptable you might as well just cover up the entire image by that logic because it will eliminate all visual issues... or you could just scale it correctly.

[Schizophretard]

Dumbest post I've half-read in a while. Scanlines are there for a reason, 240p = half the lines of resolution. By filling in the scanlines with additional image you just make things look blocky. For me, they are essential to the experience, smoothing out the harsh edges and making it a lot more pleasant to the eyes. If it weren't for the option in my framemeister and nt mini, I'd probably just use emulators. So speak for yourself, these games were designed with scanlines in mind, not the other way around.

One of the reasons I said:

 

No thanks. By CRT effects I don't just mean scanlines but the entire appearance. In my opinion, retro games look graphically better on CRT's.

Is that some of my CRT's don't have scanlines as far as I can tell. For an example, one of my Sony Trinitrons has only a 9" screen with the best input it has being composite. With the image compressed down that small it looks every bit HD to me as scaling up the image on a huge flat panel. I don't notice scanlines and at that size dot crawl, color bleed, etc. doesn't seem to be as big of issues compared to if I had it on a 27". So, having better inputs like S-Video and component might not make much of a difference at that size compared to composite. It looks completely clear to me and I don't see any imperfections that an HDTV could clear up. However, there are still CRT effects that are making the image look good instead of looking like MS Paint.