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ColecoVision with HDMI MOD installed pics


juice2839

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Most peopoe want a DIY kits to mod and sell consoles, then guys that have thousands of dollars invested in the mod as well as parts are losing business. It is not easy to recoup $2000 + in a small community like ColecoVision.

I don't quite understand your point. What about those who want a DIY kit but aren't in the business of reselling consoles?
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I don't quite understand your point. What about those who want a DIY kit but aren't in the business of reselling consoles?

 

His point is that by selling his "service" he can recoup the cost of the development and goods of the mod and each sale is a guaranteed step in that direction. If he sells a DIY kit for significantly less money, anyone could mod that system and then re-sell it on eBay and the premium does not go to the person who developed the mod. I can totally appreciate where he's coming from. While I fully understand there are people that want to DIY just for the hobby of modding, people have to protect their investments. IMO, the only way around that is to kind of meet in the middle and sell the DIY kit at a much higher price which helps absorb the cost for people who mod and re-sell.

 

Think about it this way, a homebrewer that sells a game for $50 has to take that amount and hope he sells enough to recoup his cost of development, packaging, manufacture, etc. Someone that takes that same $50 game a few years later and sells it on eBay for $500 not only gets his $50 investment back, but makes a huge profit. I'm pretty sure the homebrewer would LOVE to see some of that additional $450, but they never do. And while I get that's just how the game is played, I'm sure it's gotta be frustrating for a homebrewer to see their games being sold for 3 or 4 times what they originally sold them for and they don't see a penny extra out of it.

 

I'm sure that same thought process is exactly why Yurkie would rather mod the system for you than sell you a cheaper kit to do it yourself. Just my thoughts on the matter...

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His point is that by selling his "service" he can recoup the cost of the development and goods of the mod and each sale is a guaranteed step in that direction. If he sells a DIY kit for significantly less money, anyone could mod that system and then re-sell it on eBay and the premium does not go to the person who developed the mod. I can totally appreciate where he's coming from. While I fully understand there are people that want to DIY just for the hobby of modding, people have to protect their investments. IMO, the only way around that is to kind of meet in the middle and sell the DIY kit at a much higher price which helps absorb the cost for people who mod and re-sell.

 

Think about it this way, a homebrewer that sells a game for $50 has to take that amount and hope he sells enough to recoup his cost of development, packaging, manufacture, etc. Someone that takes that same $50 game a few years later and sells it on eBay for $500 not only gets his $50 investment back, but makes a huge profit. I'm pretty sure the homebrewer would LOVE to see some of that additional $450, but they never do. And while I get that's just how the game is played, I'm sure it's gotta be frustrating for a homebrewer to see their games being sold for 3 or 4 times what they originally sold them for and they don't see a penny extra out of it.

 

I'm sure that same thought process is exactly why Yurkie would rather mod the system for you than sell you a cheaper kit to do it yourself. Just my thoughts on the matter...

 

Then it's a matter of pricing. Set the kit price to a level where you make the same amount of money, or a little bit less, because of the saved time. Definitely some people would go for it, even if the savings (of kit vs. modded) wasn't too much. The savings in shipping costs would probably make it worthwhile to both parties.

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Then it's a matter of pricing. Set the kit price to a level where you make the same amount of money, or a little bit less, because of the saved time. Definitely some people would go for it, even if the savings (of kit vs. modded) wasn't too much. The savings in shipping costs would probably make it worthwhile to both parties.

Bingo!

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Nobody could ever argue that a DIY kit should cost less since I figure the cost of the kit is only known by the developer of the mod. So then, Yurkie could sell his mods the amount he invests in each and every one of them, even more! No need to do anybody a favor by selling cheaper, he's the mastermind behind all this.

 

Go on Yurkie, DO sell DIY kits, but please sell at the price YOU judge fair and that will allow you to get the money you deserve! Anyways, if people that want to install their own DIY kits would of paid the mod anyway if they had to get it done by you, might as well pay full price for the kit too, they don't have labor cost to consider, it's their own time!

 

The only way I could see this backfiring is if someone else would build and sell these DIY kits for cheaper.

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Then it's a matter of pricing. Set the kit price to a level where you make the same amount of money, or a little bit less, because of the saved time. Definitely some people would go for it, even if the savings (of kit vs. modded) wasn't too much. The savings in shipping costs would probably make it worthwhile to both parties.

 

After the initial investment is covered is when you'd expect to have a DIY roll out. That's why I am offering the Inty RGB as a kit through a re-seller now. The re-seller takes care of the customer support for a little profit and I only make a little bit from assembly ( I then use this small profit to finance the next project) . Since my initial investment is taken care off I don't care if people resell them after they mod them. If you can't make new products like Yurkie you have to try to milk what you have for all it's worth..

Edited by juice2839
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No way do I agree with view points here. Hell if I were Yurkie I wouldn't sell a DIY either. If that were the way I make money then tough luck to the rest of the folks who want a piece of the action. Sorry but again like someone said..... Its called business. And Its real easy to sit back and say Yurkie should sell the DIY mod when its not your bottom line that's effected.

 

So yeah its a business, and you do whatever it takes to make sure it continues to be one.

You don't see businesses giving away (or in this case selling their strategies) to what could later potentially could be their competitors. I wouldn't. And its not fair in any way to put pressure on Yurkie to do so.

Edited by PhoenixMoonPatrol
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No way do I agree with view points here. Hell if I were Yurkie I wouldn't sell a DIY either. If that were the way I make money then tough luck to the rest of the folks who want a piece of the action. Sorry but again like someone said..... Its called business. And Its real easy to sit back and say Yurkie should sell the DIY mod when its not your bottom line that's effected.

 

So yeah its a business, and you do whatever it takes to make sure it continues to be one.

You don't see businesses giving away (or in this case selling their strategies) to what could later potentially could be their competitors. I wouldn't. And its not fair in any way to put pressure on Yurkie to do so.

 

If it's a business, then money is a key aspect. You can set it up so you make good money whether you're modding a system or whether you're selling a kit. You can set it up so you make almost the same amount either way.

 

I'll make up an example. I'm making up all the numbers, but they make some sense in the assembly world.

 

Modding your system for $100. Add $20 for you to ship it, and $20 to ship it back. Total is $140 (for the customer) for the modification. It takes an hour to mod a system. If you estimate the value of the board that gets installed at $30 for parts and labor, the install portion has gained $70 for the modification, and taken 1 hour of time to do this mod.

 

Now consider a kit, instead. You can safely sell the board for $30, and make money (because it included labor cost). You might be happy doing this, if you don't want the bother of cleaning up old systems. If you like that part of the business, however, and are counting on that part of the business for income, then you can just charge more. The extreme case would be to sell it for $100. Add $10 to ship it to you (and $0 for you to ship you console, because you don't need to send it). In this case (ignoring the labor for the $30 board), you've made $70 for the "non-modification", and taken 0 hours of time. You could decide to sell the kit for $90 plus $10 shipping, and only make $60 extra ($10 off for saving your hour of work).

 

So, in this case, with my estimated or made up numbers, a mod would cost the customer $140, and the modder would make $70 in 1 hour for the mod. Selling a kit (2nd kit scenario), the kit would cost the customer $100, and the "modder" would make $60 in 0 hours for the mod. I'm sure some would go for it, and the modder loses nothing (well, he loses $10, but gains an hour, in my scenario).

 

The bottom line is now people have a choice, and either way, the "modder" makes decent money.Win-win!

 

Note: there is at least one more issue... support for the kit. If I ever create a new kit for anything, I'll make sure to make it clear what level of support is included in the purchase price, and what level of support is not included in the purchase price.

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Everyone can argue one way or the other about this issue of selling a Kit or not, but in the end it all boils down to one thing...

 

Respect for the persons (in this case, Yurkie) decision on how they want to make a product or service available. Plain and simple.

 

This discussion has been broached numerous times on here and is really getting old now just as the discussions about the Homebrew game manufacturers (Team Pixelboy, CollectorVision, etc., etc.) not making their games releases available as loose carts or in digital download format when the game is newly released. Everyone seems to now respect the Homebrewers decisions now, so it's high time everyone starts to respect Yurkie's decision about not making a Kit available.

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Everyone can argue one way or the other about this issue of selling a Kit or not, but in the end it all boils down to one thing...

 

Respect for the persons (in this case, Yurkie) decision on how they want to make a product or service available. Plain and simple.

 

This discussion has been broached numerous times on here and is really getting old now just as the discussions about the Homebrew game manufacturers (Team Pixelboy, CollectorVision, etc., etc.) not making their games releases available as loose carts or in digital download format when the game is newly released. Everyone seems to now respect the Homebrewers decisions now, so it's high time everyone starts to respect Yurkie's decision about not making a Kit available.

 

Since I was only allowed to hit the like button once, I also wanted to just say this is exactly how I feel as well. People are also welcome to start their own modding and DIY kit business if they are not happy with the current options, and then I'm sure they'll realize just how difficult of an endeavor that really can be. I have tons of respect for anyone doing business on consoles that haven't seen a retail shelf in 30+ years.

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Everyone can argue one way or the other about this issue of selling a Kit or not, but in the end it all boils down to one thing...

 

Respect for the persons (in this case, Yurkie) decision on how they want to make a product or service available. Plain and simple.

 

This discussion has been broached numerous times on here and is really getting old now just as the discussions about the Homebrew game manufacturers (Team Pixelboy, CollectorVision, etc., etc.) not making their games releases available as loose carts or in digital download format when the game is newly released. Everyone seems to now respect the Homebrewers decisions now, so it's high time everyone starts to respect Yurkie's decision about not making a Kit available.

 

I'm not sure if I was lumped into this... but... definitely I can respect anyone's decision. It's their business; they can do what they want. I'm just pointing out another option that is available, if one desires.

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I'm not sure if I was lumped into this... but... definitely I can respect anyone's decision. It's their business; they can do what they want. I'm just pointing out another option that is available, if one desires.

I read your post and it makes a lot of sense as well as holds a lot of water due to it coming from someone like yourself who has done/achieved so much in this retroscene for the benefit of so many. My previous post is all encompassing because for anyone that has posted about wanting a DIY Kit, the benefits of it, why one should be available, etc., etc., it feels like to me that they are completely ignoring a long standing stance by Yurkie about how he wishes to go about his business. It's a right of everyone to have an opinion and to be able to post about it here (well, within reason ;) ), but when it begins to feel like "beating a dead horse" as the whole digital download of newly released Homebrews argument... it begins to feel like something other than perhaps it's intended purpose.

 

Heck, Yurkie finally made a DIY Composite A/V Mod Kit available, so who knows, maybe one day he will make an RGB Mod Kit available.

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Matt could update his firmware on the F18A, I would think fairly easily (compared to how much he has already implemented in it) to output CGA (Basically RGB) or his VGA. Maybe with a jumper. Then you would have a DIY RGB kit.

 

Yeah, that's a good point. Even without those modifications you mentioned, isn't the F18A pretty much a DIY RGB kit as it is? Although probably a rather advanced DIY kit with some of the work that needs to be done.

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As it stands the F18A is a DIY VGA kit.

 

Although I did some reading, From Wikipedia:

"VGA connectors and cables carry analog component RGBHV (Red, Green, Blue, horizontal sync, vertical sync) video signals, and VESA Display Data Channel (VESA DDC) data."

 

As far as the F18A outputting RGB..maybe Mathew can comment on that, since he's the man behind the product. :)

 

On a side note, I'm going to mod my Dreamcast for VGA as soon as it comes in.. doesn't look like too bad of a job.

Edited by SiLic0ne t0aD85
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"RGB" seems to mean a lot of things to a lot of people, so when talking about video signals people really need to specify the details about the signal. *ALL* computer monitors are technically RGB (Red, Green, Blue) devices because that is the color space they operate in. What differs is how that color data is delivered.

 

Color TVs and classic coin-op games with CRT monitors typically have RGB inputs that are an analog voltage for each color. The voltage controls the shade of the color, and usually the voltage is low, like 0V to 0.7V. 0V would be none of the color, 0.7V would be maximum of the color. Based on how well the video source can control the color voltage determines how many shades of a given red, green, or blue you can display. With 24-bit color, each color has 256-shades.

 

There was also a "Digital" RGB (sometimes called RGBI) that was used for CGA I believe. The voltages used for this RGB are *not* analog and not compatible with analog RGB voltage levels. The are more TTL voltages (0V or 5V) and the color is either "on" or "off" (red or no red, green or no green, etc.) The "I" is an intensity bit, so you have 8 possible colors, each with a low and high intensity. This make the original 16-colors of CGA.

 

Analog "VGA" RGB voltages levels are probably compatible with the original coin-op style RGB (but I have not verified this), however the horizontal and vertical scan rates are different. Converting from one scan rate to another is not always a simple task and in some cases requires a full frame of video to be buffered. Other times you can get away with conversion per scan-line.

 

This is also only for discrete RGB monitor control, which is completely different than the other signal types such as component, composite, s-video, etc.

 

The F18A is designed to drive a "VGA" monitor, which is typically understood to mean: analog RGB signals with a voltage range of 0V to 0.7V and a horizontal rate of 31KHz and vertical rate of 60Hz. This produces a visible pixel resolution of 640x480 with the possibility of 16 million colors (but the F18A can only produce 4096 distinct colors).

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"RGB" seems to mean a lot of things to a lot of people, so when talking about video signals people really need to specify the details about the signal. *ALL* computer monitors are technically RGB (Red, Green, Blue) devices because that is the color space they operate in. What differs is how that color data is delivered.

 

Color TVs and classic coin-op games with CRT monitors typically have RGB inputs that are an analog voltage for each color. The voltage controls the shade of the color, and usually the voltage is low, like 0V to 0.7V. 0V would be none of the color, 0.7V would be maximum of the color. Based on how well the video source can control the color voltage determines how many shades of a given red, green, or blue you can display. With 24-bit color, each color has 256-shades.

 

There was also a "Digital" RGB (sometimes called RGBI) that was used for CGA I believe. The voltages used for this RGB are *not* analog and not compatible with analog RGB voltage levels. The are more TTL voltages (0V or 5V) and the color is either "on" or "off" (red or no red, green or no green, etc.) The "I" is an intensity bit, so you have 8 possible colors, each with a low and high intensity. This make the original 16-colors of CGA.

 

Analog "VGA" RGB voltages levels are probably compatible with the original coin-op style RGB (but I have not verified this), however the horizontal and vertical scan rates are different. Converting from one scan rate to another is not always a simple task and in some cases requires a full frame of video to be buffered. Other times you can get away with conversion per scan-line.

 

This is also only for discrete RGB monitor control, which is completely different than the other signal types such as component, composite, s-video, etc.

 

The F18A is designed to drive a "VGA" monitor, which is typically understood to mean: analog RGB signals with a voltage range of 0V to 0.7V and a horizontal rate of 31KHz and vertical rate of 60Hz. This produces a visible pixel resolution of 640x480 with the possibility of 16 million colors (but the F18A can only produce 4096 distinct colors).

 

There are 2 ways I can see converting your F18A to what I'll call Arcade Monitor RGB or AMRGB for short :) . I have not looked at one of your units so I am guessing, but I am sure I am in the ballpark.. The first way (I'll call it the hard way) is I would take your dot clock and sample every other pixel, use a divide/n to derive the horizonal and vertical sync and then go from there. This sounds splendid in theory, but would probably be nightmarish to get it working perfect. The other and simpler option is to modify your VHDL. I doubt your going to release your source. I would guess and I hate guessing that you yourself could probably do this rather easily since you've spent I would venture to say 100's of hours looking at your own VHDL. Now with all that said, I don't blame you for not wanting to spend more time reworking a perfectly good design that works just the way you designed it to. By the way I really envy your tenacity because that had to be frustrating as FU^& at times to debug. :)

Edited by juice2839
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