peteym5 Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 I had some thoughts about another alternative for emulation, demos, youtube videos, screen shots, and pay per downloads. That is make an emulator work through web browsers on a web page. Would need to modify Atari800Plus or Altirra to make it as an application that runs on a web page and stream its video output onto a webpage. Receive input from the keyboard, mouse, and game pads. The Atari 8-bit program will never leave the server and would be a similar type of thing as streaming music, tv shows, and movies. I know there are a few websites doing this for old games already, but not sure if anyone had done it for the Atari 8-bit yet. This could be a way for people who develop new software like myself and have concerns about piracy, maintain control over the copyright. Anyone who is developing new software can put their stuff on a server and still sell cartridges or the floppies through their own outlet. I can send some personal messages to developers. There are a few developers and distributors that do not favor putting software in a medium that can be easily copied and distributed. We can figure out financing, royalties, and profits later and if an emulator to do these things. The first problem is getting someone turning an emulator that can stream its video from a server to a web browser. Second problem is getting developers and distributors (like Video61, Albert, Gr8, etc.) to go along with such an ideal. I have to email a few people to see if they are interested in setting up a web page or server to do this. I know a few people had some quarrels with Video61 over the SpartaDosX cartridge. I had absolutely no involvement with that, but it seems people are becoming reluctant to continue to do business with him. So I end up being a innocent bystander affected by that affair. We know KJMANN is not longer working with us. I continue to look for ways to compromise, but we well know we cannot always make everyone happy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 If the game was actually emulated in the browser (not streamed), then there would actually be a chance to play it without serious lag. Otherwise, you might as well just post a video. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteym5 Posted November 3, 2015 Author Share Posted November 3, 2015 I understand, there are still a large percentage of people that use dial up, DSL, not on Broadband. The down link is not much better than a 56K modem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
José Pereira Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 When I thought the title and your first lines was to have a website to play games online right after you start with your usually talking. Why don't you realize that there is no market to get lots of money and if people want they will always copy your carts that it seems they don't like I never of Xenophobe that over the years people still respect Fandal for the money he spent to buy and bring the unreleased game. People don't think first in doing a game to sell, whatever may come the better... To create that website you need modern programmers and if they are like you and want to be payed (and modern ones have the right to as there is more wanting than the ones that do) then do you have money to pay them? I know one or two here do you want to 'buy' their services? As it seems you're seeing the A8 as a market then I think that you already opened a company and intend to pay taxes, have employers,... all that is needed to anyone that is doing things seriously VS all us, the others that are just doing for fun and if possible some bucks we win the better: -> If in the best I have a game that I does gfxs and on those limited boxes edition 50copies and more two or three guys involved then to have a selling price that people will buy lets say that each receive 1euro that is if all copies sold I'll get 50euros. This amount is here around 1month of electricity, water, phone but not enough for web. I pay 1month but spent 2 or 3, more the time to sell all the copies. Of course that for me that and others in the same situation that are unemployed it sure helps and at least we have what to do and like. In 1month I had win some bucks but then when what to do on the other year's 11? A8 is a like and a pleasure but never a way of living, good if it was! Do what you like, but it seems that you want to do what you can get money and if is this then move to other market is my advice. And unlike others that all here like and support on whatever they release, in your case and because of posts from the very first time your are seen as negative that all that you release, be good or worse, not many will buy, that's my opinion. And it also seems from some opinions that your packages VS others aren't the best ones and also higher priced. Maybe you are still in time to change your way and your talkings but this is up to you... I think that is the first time in my case, not to Kjmann, not to Centron3D, and untill now to you but this night I had to say something. And like people most of the times says when posting their opinions: "Just my 2cents!..." 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteym5 Posted November 3, 2015 Author Share Posted November 3, 2015 The first thing has to be decided before setting up a server and providing an online pay service is getting an emulator together that can load from a server, but prevents the games from being saved on a hard drive. I did say we can figure out costs later. I do not want to see something that requires a high price per month. I try my best to be peaceful on here, however it was some other members on here that like to twist and turn subjects into a battlefield. If something annoys me, I just ignore them. I believe by Quoting a post just to attack someone, you are inviting crap to happen. I use Quote to respond to technical questions only. We remember how things got out of hand on the Venture thread and the Atari vs Commodore threads. But I do not want to turn this into one of those threads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gozar Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 This could be a way for people who develop new software like myself and have concerns about piracy, maintain control over the copyright. Anyone who is developing new software can put their stuff on a server and still sell cartridges or the floppies through their own outlet. I can send some personal messages to developers. There are a few developers and distributors that do not favor putting software in a medium that can be easily copied and distributed. We can figure out financing, royalties, and profits later and if an emulator to do these things. Any medium you release on for the Atari 8-bits is easily copyable. Doesn't matter if it's a cartridge, it can be copied. AtariMax's USB flash programmer can easily dump any cartridge. Look at was has been possible with the recent release of Popeye. It was dumped from the 5200 and without the source, modified and enhanced to run on the 8-bit computers. At this stage of the game you need to trust the community. Tempest Extreme and Venture both have not been distributed to my knowledge. The rants against downloads and implying that we are pirates has turned me off of buying anything from you (and this is from a guy who spends way too much on Atari stuff). 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marius Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 (edited) Deleted again. Edited November 3, 2015 by ProWizard 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 I see no point to online emulation. It delivers a sub-optimal experience and I want nothing to do with it. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marius Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 Do whatever you think is good. You win, I am out of here. Ciao peteym5! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charliecron Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 Take freely available software like Altirra & Atari800 and use it so you can make sure your own software is not freely available? Good luck with that. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 Why exactly is ProWizard leaving? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Stephen Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 Why exactly is ProWizard leaving? Probably tired of talking to a brick wall? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 So, peteym5 = AtariAge? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+JAC! Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 I think any kind of streaming or online emulation will not do any justice to the how the program will run on real HW or local emulation. A simple 2-3 minute video (youtube even supports HD and 50Hz nowadays) is just enough for any kind of promotion. Making a good video is still enough work, but my personal experience is that it's much more worth than any text or trial. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybags Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 Online emulation would be OK, but there's plenty of buts: - the emulation would have to be done locally, ie not by sending input by network to a host then A/V back to the client. - anything multiplayer would likely be subject to problems of input lag. - existing emulators probably wouldn't port well. A lot of web based emulation eg. for 2600, Commodore Plus4 is Javascript based. - if you wanted to keep it "exclusive" measures would be needed to stop people just downloading and playing locally. Maybe some encryption of emulated programs. Some sort of heartbeat system where the emulation goes back to base to validate the session in progress. - the overall experience can be subject to how good the clients computer is. But in the modern day it shouldn't be a huge chore for midrange PCs. - ability to play a given game online might mean people don't bother to buy it for the real Atari. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteym5 Posted November 4, 2015 Author Share Posted November 4, 2015 I know there is a lot of Java based emulators out there, so trying to do something on the 8-bit might take some work. However the Atari 8-bit is more advance than the 2600, but probably be easier than trying to emulate the Genesis, Super Nintendo, or Jaguar. Other alternative is get the original programmers Altirra or Atari800WinPlus to produce modified versions that support client-server setup and do this encryption that only allows it play on these modified emulators. Can still stream the Atari screen output from a program running on the server. Still have to see whats possible. I emailed Phaeron earlier and see if he can suggest any ideals. Still had not heard back from him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 The completely spurious motivation behind the idea makes the question of whether it could work totally moot. However, for those few peculiar developers reluctant to see their work distributed, getting involved in a long, protracted discussion of how not to release software using non-existent browser-based emulators should prove an effective distraction from producing software people actually want to download or purchase. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 When too many hoops have to be jumped through I don't bother. And I certainly hope Avery doesn't pervert Altirra to this cause. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteym5 Posted November 4, 2015 Author Share Posted November 4, 2015 (edited) Maybe this was a bad ideal to post this ideal in the first place. I know there are many technical, economic, and now social issues to work out. It may not only be used by developers to demonstrate their software, but probably have large online libraries of old Atari 8-bit games for people to play online. However most of us already downloaded large libraries of these old games already. For now we have stick with posting Youtube videos, Screen Shots, and Demos when the retail version is released. Edited November 4, 2015 by peteym5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybags Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 http://xlatari.com That site appears to have online games. Not working for me ATM thanks to my browsers having paranoia over Java and my Java version being out of date. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteym5 Posted November 4, 2015 Author Share Posted November 4, 2015 (edited) I have had problems with JAVA and other scripting programming crashing or freezing up my Firefox over the last few years. I understand Chrome and Internet Explorer (Edge) also been crashing with websites that use scripting also. I am having problems with that site, JAVA states it is not a trusted site. Proves the point about using scripting languages for emulation. Edited November 4, 2015 by peteym5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteym5 Posted November 4, 2015 Author Share Posted November 4, 2015 (edited) http://xlatari.com That site appears to have online games. Not working for me ATM thanks to my browsers having paranoia over Java and my Java version being out of date. It took me some updating JAVA and setting it as an exception, restarting the computer, to get games to work from this website. So we do have an online Atari Emulator site, who is running this thing? Looks like there is not a way for people to download and keep games. Now the second part of it is persuading Video61 that this may be a way help people to try some games before deciding if they want to buy them or not. Video61 has been opposed to pay-per-downloads in the past. So it is not going to be an easy proposal. He might make them do a contract or non-disclosure. If I decide to go through with this, I probably will add some switches so games can be played for an X-amount of time and/or an X-number of levels. Not put the full games on there. Edited November 4, 2015 by peteym5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phaeron Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 I had some thoughts about another alternative for emulation, demos, youtube videos, screen shots, and pay per downloads. That is make an emulator work through web browsers on a web page. Would need to modify Atari800Plus or Altirra to make it as an application that runs on a web page and stream its video output onto a webpage. Receive input from the keyboard, mouse, and game pads. The Atari 8-bit program will never leave the server and would be a similar type of thing as streaming music, tv shows, and movies. I know there are a few websites doing this for old games already, but not sure if anyone had done it for the Atari 8-bit yet. This could be a way for people who develop new software like myself and have concerns about piracy, maintain control over the copyright. Anyone who is developing new software can put their stuff on a server and still sell cartridges or the floppies through their own outlet. I can send some personal messages to developers. There are a few developers and distributors that do not favor putting software in a medium that can be easily copied and distributed. We can figure out financing, royalties, and profits later and if an emulator to do these things. I know there is a lot of Java based emulators out there, so trying to do something on the 8-bit might take some work. However the Atari 8-bit is more advance than the 2600, but probably be easier than trying to emulate the Genesis, Super Nintendo, or Jaguar. Other alternative is get the original programmers Altirra or Atari800WinPlus to produce modified versions that support client-server setup and do this encryption that only allows it play on these modified emulators. Can still stream the Atari screen output from a program running on the server. Still have to see whats possible. I emailed Phaeron earlier and see if he can suggest any ideals. Still had not heard back from him. Since you asked me publicly, I'll respond publicly: no. I have no problems with people getting paid for their work or even online streaming, but I find the motivation behind this to be rather disrespectful to the community that would (a) be the market who might actually buy the software and (b) made possible the emulators that you mention here and also make development of that software easier or even possible. I have no intention of cooperating directly or indirectly with vendors that have such a caustic attitude. Also, to be perfectly clear, I would consider it a violation of the license for anyone to produce and distribute a version of Altirra that was modified to run an encrypted game, without my express consent to do so. This would clearly be an intent to create a single derived work without releasing the source code to all the components as required by the license. 11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteym5 Posted November 4, 2015 Author Share Posted November 4, 2015 (edited) I do not believe I never expressed any negative attitude so far on this thread and my intention was to provide the community an alternative to sampling my software. But it is starting to look like the forces working against the ideal are becoming more apparent. I knew it was a long shot even before posting. I am awaiting responses about using the XLATARI site and we will see what happens. I do not believe I said I wanted to charge people to try the software online. Only said figure out the costs and financing after finding an online emulator. The XLATARI site is what I am looking for and it is not charging anything. I suggested something about covering the cost of maintaining the service. Edited November 4, 2015 by peteym5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybags Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 In all likelihood Java and other types of web based emulators could easily enough be just downloaded and run locally. But it would be fairly trivial to embed encrypted Atari games in such a way that they couldn't easily be ripped and run on real hw or traditional emulation. I tend to agree with Avery - producing a derived work from a pre-existing emulator that has open source type licencing isn't fair business. The next ladder on the rung with that type of thing might be producing games or software that could be misrepresented as being Windows or Android programs. The idea though of being able to sample a game either online only or in a sandboxed way to prevent copying or alteration is fair enough. But by infringing other people's copyright or fair use agreements in order to protect your own potential revenue base is anything but fair. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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