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COST OF NEW GAMES? - Blah Blah Woof Woof / CRAP Games


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Maybe not from playing, but a box to me is part of the whole experience. reading it, checking out screen shots and reminiscing about the good old days. But thats just me.

 

Oh i don't disagree at all. Heck, I'm the guy that makes his own reproduction boxes just so the rarer carts I have lucked into have a home and largely for the reason you just stated. What I was saying was that the gameplay alone was enough to justify creating a game so baggie releases are always welcome even if, as collectors, we never get the boxes we'd like to have for all of them.

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At some point it will all be emulation as the old machines die...ROM's will be the history that remains.

 

Say it isn't so, I don't want my Inty to die :skull: Hey, wait a sec, I've already got a box full of dissected units. But I don't look at that box in the corner of the closet and pretend that they aren't there - and tend to forget that they are there until the little wifey asks to discard them, and we can't have that...

 

This has all been an interesting discussion. The homebrewers need more marketing to reach out to the unsuspecting peoples. The more people in the party, the higher qty that should be produced.

 

If it all boils down to that only the ROMs will survive the test of time, then we should all get the Ultimate Flashback Upgrade and be prepared for the future.

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I think fancy boxes and packaging does not have to apply necessarily to every release. If we lower the barriers to production by, say, accepting baggy releases, we allow more experimentation and ultimately expand the supply. More programmers will feel comfortable putting their IntyBASIC fun project on a cart and sending it out into the world. Some of these may turn out to be turds, but some may end up being really good. It will only continue getting better and better as experience is gained and the collective community influences and steers development towards one way or another.

 

However, without an outlet for such experimentation, we'll never know.

 

In my opinion, gatefold boxes should not be the standard release, but reserved for a premium game. So what's a premium game? Truly original gems done with all the love and passion for the art, the hobby, and the community; the ones that showcase not only your collection but the Intellivision platform itself. There have been very few of these so far, but I expect that to grow as the programmer community grows.

 

The problem, in my view, is that there is currently no restraint and no perspective from the collector community. Everything must be a glossy gatefold box! That is an insane amount of pressure on both programmers and publishers. That means that every single game must be worthy of such a release. As a programmer I will tell you that that sort of attitude turns my precious hobby into a job: In my mind I make a distinction between a little side-project I can get done in a few months and release it to the community to play with; and a personal masterpiece that will take me three or more years to make.

 

I would feel uncomfortable treating the former as a premium title, but I would feel worse if only given the chance for the latter: If I were to only do multi-year, intricate, elaborate projects that suck my life through a sieve -- because it is expected of me -- then I will quickly reassess what I would like to do with the rest of my life. I'm sure it is the same for many other programmers -- notice the rather conspicuous turnover we've had in recent years.

 

To the publisher it is a similar situation when every release is expected to be a AAA title and worth the price of admission. That can't be good for business.

 

However, all that said, there is a much more perverse reason why this pressure exists: it has been my experience, as part of this community for several years, that many of the most vociferous collectors screaming for glossy boxes, do not actually play the games themselves! For them, the releases are merely pretty plastic and cardboard to put on a shelf, increase in value, and re-sell or churn to keep the collection fresh. These are the people who demand that everything must be in a fancy, artful box, because that's where the value of the item comes from.

 

Of course, those are the same people who purchase two, three, five units of the same item, so they tend to be the most lucrative sector of this niche market. Because of that, understandably (and perhaps inadvertently), publishers may tend to cater to them; which only increases their hold on the market, keeping the community in the dark ages of production.

 

The only way to solve this is for the community as a whole -- not just collectors, and not just publishers -- to expand their horizons and widen the options; to accept releases of various quality levels and differing price points, to encourage experimentation and small runs, and celebrate the games themselves, not just their packaging.

 

Remember, the programmers -- the people who join this community for the express purpose of making games for a 30 year-old console with a rather minuscule niche market -- are in it for the fun, passion, and nostalgia. They are the ones who make the games that keep the lifeblood of this community alive. Give them appropriate options to provide the games to you, and encourage publishers to fill those gaps accordingly. Keep the passion. Keep the fun.

 

In the end, the community -- all of us -- will be much richer for it.

 

-dZ.

Edited by DZ-Jay
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As long as anyone who wants a new game for the Intellivision has access to it in whatever form it is produced and released,and of course it is the Producers choice on how that happens,

 

As part of the community I will support all of it.

 

We all love the games, and some like the frills, bells and whistles as well. Certainly though nothing wrong with the production of just the great game! Carry on....... :)

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As long as anyone who wants a new game for the Intellivision has access to it in whatever form it is produced and released,and of course it is the Producers choice on how that happens,

 

As part of the community I will support all of it.

 

We all love the games, and some like the frills, bells and whistles as well. Certainly though nothing wrong with the production of just the great game! Carry on....... :)

 

 

My point is that it is only "the producer's choice" as long as we keep this Byzantine production system with high barriers to entry and high costs. In this small market, there is absolutely no need to require a programmer to get in bed with a producer and lose control of the release of his game unless he wants a big fancy production. The programmer -- he who makes the games -- should have the choice.

 

-dZ.

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The problem, in my view, is that there is currently no restraint and no perspective from the collector community. Everything must be a glossy gatefold box! That is an insane amount of pressure on both programmers and publishers. That means that every single game must be worthy of such a release. As a programmer I will tell you that that sort of attitude turns my precious hobby into a job:

 

I was nodding along to your entire post, but this one really stuck out.

 

This right here is precisely why I haven't actually released anything beyond a few half-finished ROMs in the programming forum. Because there's just this ridiculous pressure to MAKE IT A AAA GAME AND ONLY GATEFOLD WITH OVERLAYS WILL DO.

 

I'm anxiously awaiting the flash carts because I want to back off, make some "short, but fun" games, and see how willing people are to pay for those instead. Multi-year programming efforts are not much fun for me, unless it's something I'm making for myself. A job is exactly what it was for a few months, which was great when I didn't have another one! But now? I don't have anywhere near the time nor energy.

 

This community should see maybe 3-6 AAA "must have" titles every year. Another 5-10 good, but average titles (the ones that many will buy, but some will pass on). And maybe 20-30 of what I'm envisioning. Games that you can complete in an hour. Where the replay value isn't always bringing you back, but it's a "hey that was a neat game" kind of thing. Stuff that a quick $5 via Paypal gets you when it's good, or free when it's just for fun.

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My point is that it is only "the producer's choice" as long as we keep this Byzantine production system with high barriers to entry and high costs. In this small market, there is absolutely no need to require a programmer to get in bed with a producer and lose control of the release of his game unless he wants a big fancy production. The programmer -- he who makes the games -- should have the choice.

 

-dZ.

 

At this point I want to be clear that I do not disagree with any of that. Everyone has the the right to collect or make games as they choose to. All true DZ! Best to all, Wolfy :thumbsup:

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I was nodding along to your entire post, but this one really stuck out.

 

This right here is precisely why I haven't actually released anything beyond a few half-finished ROMs in the programming forum. Because there's just this ridiculous pressure to MAKE IT A AAA GAME AND ONLY GATEFOLD WITH OVERLAYS WILL DO.

 

I'm anxiously awaiting the flash carts because I want to back off, make some "short, but fun" games, and see how willing people are to pay for those instead. Multi-year programming efforts are not much fun for me, unless it's something I'm making for myself. A job is exactly what it was for a few months, which was great when I didn't have another one! But now? I don't have anywhere near the time nor energy.

 

This community should see maybe 3-6 AAA "must have" titles every year. Another 5-10 good, but average titles (the ones that many will buy, but some will pass on). And maybe 20-30 of what I'm envisioning. Games that you can complete in an hour. Where the replay value isn't always bringing you back, but it's a "hey that was a neat game" kind of thing. Stuff that a quick $5 via Paypal gets you when it's good, or free when it's just for fun.

 

That is what we tried to do with Piggy Bank. Except the complete it in an hour or so. Having a good new game. Part of it was time. We didn't have time to do a box IF we wanted. I specifically wanted to do something = to or > than BLIX and make enough copies so people that wanted the game had a fair shot at getting the game. The producer side of me wanted to make only the minimum number needed to satisfy that demand. This was gorilla marketing or "Commedia dell'arte"- With Harlequins and cuckolds. BLIX for the collector is a stupid thing to want, but we still want it. And after all my ranting on it I worked a trade of some of my older games to get a copy. This is why the team agreed to only one per person. We also plan to make the game available via ROM with possible added levels in the next year. Piggy 1.5. If we do that we may or may not do a small supplemental cart run. I think the ROM release will surprise folks too.

 

As mostly a "producer" and "marketing" guy I look at ways to get something cool just done, taking the stuff the programmers don't really like to do and do that for them so they can do what they want to do, when they want to while trying to keep it fun for them because, this is a hobby.

 

I think we all do agree that there is a market for games. Some "legacy" games deserve the full treatment CIB, Glossy and Gatefold and may be economically viable. Some should look like the games post-crash of 83. Boxed and maybe a manual or in a baggie as supplies dwindled. That doesn't mean they are "lessor" games but rather part of the spirit and lore that made the first wave of console gaming the wild west.

 

This has been a great thread and has put a lot of data out for a hobbyist / collector like me, who also wants to be an active member of the community. Every thing came together for this in a magic way. At a time when I had collector dollars in my Paypal account to pay for it and hooking up with a team that "got" what I was trying to do and saw the humor and was comfortable making fun of US! I had enough fun to want to do it again. In a year!

 

I an excited about the possibility of the wide availability of programmible Multi-Carts. Maybe unlike the Cuttle Cart 3 they will be widely and wildly available for a long time.

 

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Perhaps off thread, but I take the opportunity to say that I hope only that the fate of the Intellivision scene will differ from the Atari 2600's, where hundreds of games and hacks are made and each of them is sold in a few copies (with some exceptions, of course, like Halo 2600).

 

I can't say it for sure but I guess that those programmers are frustrated because their works are appreciated only by a few purchasers and even the collectors are frustrated because they can never have a complete collection including all the homebrews released.

Edited by intellivotion
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I can't say it for sure but I guess that those programmers are frustrated because their works are appreciated only by a few purchasers and even the collectors are frustrated because they can never have a complete collection including all the homebrews released.

There is little frustration as far as I can tell. In the Atari scenes not everybody expects their game or hack to be cart worthy nor do many seek to monetise ROMs.

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As far as media goes: movies, music, games...I would rather have a physical copy. There have been quite a few downloadable games on wii/wiiu/360 that I pass on. Same for intv roms. I'd rather own a cart. I have purchased the games from Carl to support his good work though.

 

Anyway. Just saying, id rather have carts or cib releases. Not rom releases.

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I feel the same way generally, but as a fan of the system I wan't everything I can get for it. Mine will end up in a box to.

I enjoy the entire game package great looking boxes, attractive instructions, and overlays. This for me is a long term hobby so I would opt for the boxed games.

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As far as media goes: movies, music, games...I would rather have a physical copy. There have been quite a few downloadable games on wii/wiiu/360 that I pass on. Same for intv roms. I'd rather own a cart. I have purchased the games from Carl to support his good work though.

 

I'm the same way, an old school dinosaur, if I can't hold it in my hands it's not real.

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This sorta implies that crap can be released in a box and people will still buy it. :P

No, I think what a lot of us are saying is that we would rather see a good quality boxed product with a fun to play game inside of it. That is what we would love to have happen first of all. How can anyone say that incomplete is better than complete in any form?

 

Why is that good? Yes quality certainly matters in all respects. Some in here seem to not be actual collectors or players of games, I see some of both.

 

The better and more complete a released video game is will be the better product. Like Christmas Carol, or Lost Caves of Kroz, or Ms. Pac-Man or DK2 or Copter Command. Or the Overlay sets and trading card sets.

 

Bravo, well done and made, perfectly released and executed! I love all of that stuff!!! Thanks all, great work. :)

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No, I think what a lot of us are saying is that we would rather see a good quality boxed product with a fun to play game inside of it. That is what we would love to have happen first of all. How can anyone say that incomplete is better than complete in any form?

 

I was mostly being sarcastic, but there's an element of truth in it. I see a lot of comments like "I prefer CIB, but if the game's actually fun to play I'd accept a loose cart or ROM release". And let's not kid ourselves. If Blix had 10x the bugs, but came CIB - people would be climbing over each other to pay $300 on Ebay for a copy.

 

To answer your question directly: incomplete is better than complete if it means a game actually sees release. That may be the reality for some pretty great games, if this market ever gets saturated, or the people who currently take the financial risk on this get tired of it. We're already seeing at least one major publisher leave the fold.

 

The correct answer is: any and all release formats are fine, and CIB is very nice icing on the cake. Which pretty much seems to be your overall attitude, my friend. You're one of the most positive and optimistic people on any Internet forum I've ever met.

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Great question. Part of the problem with asking here on this forum though, is that you are asking on this forum. :)

 

FWIW, I recommend asking the question with details on a regular website that you own, and invite people to vote using a series of drop downs and get boxes so you capture the feeling and make the best decision. You could setup a free website on Microsoft Azure, make a simple PHP or ASP.NET site or use something from the gallery like automated Wordpress install and have it up in an hour and then get real feedback. You might also get info from those outside of our very exclusive community and get the word out about your games on top of that.

 

Or even ask an established shop like Naberhood Games if they would run the poll. They have a vested interest in distributing titles.

 

Then share a link here and everywhere you think people might look.

 

 

 

 

Would you folks like more games for your hobby that keeps expense down with a Baggy Release and a ROM release later in the $30/$40 range or more games in the $80 range after shipping with a box and all the stuffing?

 

All things being equal. A quality game but with no frills, no box, no manual no overlays or full tilt boogie with everything for twice as much money.

 

I've read a lot of posts from members who voice that they can't afford the full releases any longer especially this year with so many GREAT new Intellivision games. People have exhausted their budgets!

 

Would you have preferred no game at all or having Piggy Bank in a baggy? Do you want something pretty on your shelf, more than a game in the machine? (Seeing that half who ordered have not received the game that might be hard to judge. :-D )

 

I know the really the answer is both, but you can't have both and keep it low cost, not in small numbers at least.

 

I think there is a need for good games that are bare bones so people can risk trying something new. Our team doesn't think we can make money putting out games for a 25 year old console, but we think we can have some fun and not lose anything, except our time and sanity. Dealing in PRINT sucks! That what makes BOXES suck from a cost perspective. It sucks, it sucks releasing CD's or DVD's as much as it does suck in video games. It can cost you $1000 in waste with some stupid mistake.

 

(Snip)

 

Jay

attachicon.gifCz Opening Screen-Not-Cropped.png

 

Edited by First Spear
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Great question. Part of the problem with asking here though, is that you are asking on this forum. :)

 

FWIW, I recommend asking the question with details on a regular website that you own, and invite people to vote using a series of drop downs and get boxes so you capture the feeling and make the best decision. You could setup a free website on Microsoft Azure, make a simple PHP or ASP.NET site or use something from the gallery like automated Wordpress install and have it up in an hour and then get real feedback. You might also get info from those outside of our very exclusive community and get the word out about your games on top of that.

 

Or even ask an established shop like Naberhood Games if they would run the poll.

 

Then share a like here and everywhere you think people might look.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well, the people in this forum encompass the vast majority of the market. :? If you're trying to improve your offerings, it makes sense to ask your target audience, no? Who cares how the general dude in the Interwebz feels about something he's not invested in?

Edited by DZ-Jay
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