How come a lot getting into retro games skip Atari?

[Lynxpro]

Ah, it's been awhile since I've seen a real drag-out, full-on pointless fan fight. This is fun! Can we do 5200 vs.Jaguar now? No one's brought those up yet!

 

 

You didn't get the memo providing irrefutable evidence that the 5200 is the biological father of the Jaguar? C'mon, look at the undeniable family resemblance… the keypad on the controllers. The ability to use analog joysticks [although they never did get around to releasing any]. Both having kick-ass versions of Tempest. And the shape of the cartridges!

 

No, 5200 owners like the Jaguar. In fact, some 5200 owners would like to have the ability to use the Jaguar Pads on the 5200.

 

[ledzep]

Again you are cherry picking. The 90s was mostly dominated by fighting and racing games, and later the beginnings of FPS. I can't imagine the kind of tool that would climb in that giant ugly-as-phuck combat simulator, unless, I don't know, you were in the Army training for a combat mission...

 

Again, I am not cherry-picking. I know that the '90s was mostly dominated by fighting and racing games (I was there), therefore the reason I wrote "The '90s was a miserable, desolate time for good arcade games", get it? Ya, sims to the left, sims to the right. Boring. I mean, I like racing games but in that timeframe that's almost all there was (along with the fighting games). What I missed was good arcade games, which had become more and more rare.

 

I know you can't imagine someone who would climb into that combat simulator (small, dark places are scary!). If you like d-pads your imagination is by default limited. Nobody cared what the combat simulator looked like from the outside. It was what it was like inside that mattered, and with its sound system and the door closed (pitch black in there) it gave a great feeling of actually being inside the cockpit of a mobile armor. We would play 4 against 4, it was the best arcade sim experience ever. Of course it couldn't sustain itself, too expensive (the interior design for the lobby and whatever to make it look like you were really in that world were unnecessary and probably expensive, along with the rent for that location).

 

I played a lot of the usual single or double joystick games in the arcades as well. Xevious is one of my all-time favorites, so are games like Galaga and Bosconian. Space Duel is another favorite, it uses the typical direction buttons, as does Space Invaders and many others. But not all games work well with that control scheme. I can't imagine the kind of tool that would accept playing every console video game available with that clunky-as-fuck d-pad controller.

[Lynxpro]

Since you obviously don't listen much, I'll reiterate my thoughts on the Dpad.

 

Also quit comparing the Dpad to stuff it is not like trackballs, spinners, paddles, or analog flight yokes. A Dpad is essentially the same thing as an 8-way joystick. Once the wild, wild west of arcade controls ended somewhere around the mid-to-late 80s, arcades became fairly standardized, with what's this, an 8-way joystick operated by the left hand and 2-6 buttons operated by the right. Same basic layout as any NES, SNES, or Genesis gamepad.

 

To reiterate, both Dpads and Joysticks are essentially the same thing, just different mechanics. Both are equally valid, so don't hate on people because they have a different preference than you do.

 

Stardust, I didn't attack you at all. In fact, I indirectly complimented you by mentioning there are gamers [such as yourself] who were born after the Atari era who nonetheless enjoy gaming on its consoles and enjoy the unique controllers that were available to those platforms. Your love of Trak-Balls is especially awesome.

 

What you seem to be missing are the posts from those fanbois posting in here trashing the Trak-Ball, Spinners/Rotary controllers, Paddles, etc. and claiming the DPad supersedes them and that Atari titles and their unique controllers are shit and irrelevant [Tempest was cited in a negative manner] or they post things that aren't factually correct about how Nintendo rose to power at the expense of its competitors. Perhaps you have those users blocked. That's who I was responding to.

 

Do I think analog thumb sticks are superior to DPads? Yes. Do I point out the reason why the DPad was created in the first place was due to cost concerns and not actually superior playability to standard joysticks? Yes, that is all true. Do I like some DPads out there? Of course. I really like the Sega Genesis Pad and the Jaguar Pads. But they aren't suitable for games meant to be played with Trak-Balls. Even analog thumb sticks aren't exactly all that great to substitute for Paddles, Spinners, or Trak-Balls for the games they were originally designed to be used with. I think I posted about the Xbox Live version of Atari Warlords and that the thumbstick is somewhat suitable for it but a Paddle would be better. I did mock the concept of using dual DPads to play Robotron 2084 with on the NES instead of Dual Joysticks as originally intended because that deserves derision. That's like playing SF2 or Mortal Kombat on a keyboard with the arrow keys.

 

Hell, another post claimed the likes of Gauntlet was a tired port before it even reached the NES. Who the eff in their right mind would say such a thing? The same people who claim Nintendo's first party titles have always been superior to the third-party titles and that Nintendo's console success had nothing to do with third party support. It's a way of whitewashing Nintendo's practices that restricted the third party developers from developing for other consoles by claiming Nintendo's success was 100% due to their own titles and thus Atari, Sega, NEC, and others' lack of success was 100% due to their own the faults.

 

By the way, Gauntlet IV on the Genesis is considered superior to the arcade original by many.

 

I did mention I liked the NES Advantage. Hell, I would've liked the NES Max had its pad been a spinner; I know I wanted to play 720 Degrees with it until I learned the truth about the controller [plus the fact that there wasn't a spinner option in the NES port of the game anyway, to my knowledge].

 

So sorry if you took offense and thought I was lumping you in with the rest; I wasn't.

[ledzep]

Also quit comparing the Dpad to stuff it is not like trackballs, spinners, paddles, or analog flight yokes. A Dpad is essentially the same thing as an 8-way joystick. Once the wild, wild west of arcade controls ended somewhere around the mid-to-late 80s, arcades became fairly standardized, with what's this, an 8-way joystick operated by the left hand and 2-6 buttons operated by the right. Same basic layout as any NES, SNES, or Genesis gamepad.

 

To reiterate, both Dpads and Joysticks are essentially the same thing, just different mechanics. Both are equally valid, so don't hate on people because they have a different preference than you do.

The comparison was inevitable the moment that the NES forced game players to play games designed for trak-balls, spinners, paddles or analog flight yokes with that shitty d-pad, get it? No self-respecting game fan would shithammer the d-pad onto a game like Missile Command or Tempest or Warlords or Battlezone or Tron or whatever games used control schemes that were not one 8-way joystick operated by the left hand and 2-6 buttons operated by the right. That was Nintendo's fuck up. By default, then, the bastardized d-pad version of the game played on the NES would always be compared to how the original version of that game, whatever it was, played with its much different controller layout. And inexperienced/ignorant gamers wouldn't notice the difference and think that all games could be played with one marginal digital controller.

 

To reiterate, d-pads and joysticks are not paddles, spinners, trak-balls, analog sticks, light guns, steering wheels/gear shifters or other unique controllers. To force games that utilized those unique controllers to make do with the horrible d-pad is either lazy, cheap or stupid. So don't hate on people because they have a different expectation for the correct controller scheme for the game they're playing than you do.

[empsolo]

Hell, another post claimed the likes of Gauntlet was a tired port before it even reached the NES.

Yes, gauntlet does indeed suck. There I said it. What are you going to do now?

 

 

 

Who the eff in their right mind would say such a thing?

I did. It's a simple hack and slash game. Not much thought or effort goes into playing it and it gets extremely repetitive after a while.

 

 

 

The same people who claim Nintendo's first party titles have always been superior to the third-party titles

Because first party unique titles are what really draw people to a console. Why would I buy a console based upon the amount of multi-plats when I can buy another console or a PC that does the same thing. It's one of the reasons why Microsoft has been shifting a ton of resources into first party titles to better compete with Sony's Ps4.

 

 

 

and that Nintendo's console success had nothing to do with third party support.

Nobody has said it had nothing to do with it. This is flat out hyperbole on your part. But it is first party titles that generally sell a system for early adopters.

 

 

It's a way of whitewashing Nintendo's practices that restricted the third party developers from developing for other consoles

A practice that was temporary and had to deal with the ramifications of the crash in a specific market and not replicated elsewhere.

 

 

 

by claiming Nintendo's success was 100% due to their own titles

Considering that Nintendo's first party titles were the best selling on the system.....

 

 

 

and thus Atari,

Despite Michael Katz claiming otherwise, Atari had opportunities in the NES's early lifespan to get devs on board, especially when US companies had not yet began making games but had opted instead to license thier ips to Japanese devs and publishers. Or were focused on making PC games, not believing that the US console market was fully revived. And when they did jump on board, they opted to go with the company that had the stronger first party line up that would sell systems.

 

Sega,

Who ended copying word for word Nintendo's own licening contracts for it's own licensees.

 

 

NEC,

Who, as I pointed, never mentioned Nintendo as a reason why the TG-16 failed in the west. They instead blamed EA for walking out and convincing other devs to do the same.

 

 

and others' lack of success was 100% due to their own the faults.

As Harry Truman once famously said: The buck stops here.

Edited November 30, 2015 by empsolo

[Flojomojo]

A Dpad is essentially the same thing as an 8-way joystick. Once the wild, wild west of arcade controls ended somewhere around the mid-to-late 80s, arcades became fairly standardized, with what's this, an 8-way joystick operated by the left hand and 2-6 buttons operated by the right. Same basic layout as any NES, SNES, or Genesis gamepad.

To reiterate, both Dpads and Joysticks are essentially the same thing, just different mechanics. Both are equally valid, so don't hate on people because they have a different preference than you do.

I grew up with Atari and that era of all-joystick controllers. I always held them like a big, awkward, rubber D-pad, with my right thumb on top of the stick and my left thumb on the fire button. It's not like there's anything special about their innards, they're simple digital bubble buttons underneath. D-pads are fast, small, convenient, and universal. I like them.

[sega_SHARK]

Again you are cherry picking. The 90s was mostly dominated by fighting and racing games, and later the beginnings of FPS. I can't imagine the kind of tool that would climb in that giant ugly-as-phuck combat simulator, unless, I don't know, you were in the Army training for a combat mission...

The Virtual World pods were more of an event video game experience. I think they only had them in Vegas and Chicago back in the day. They weren't in standard arcades, you had to go to an official "Virtual World" to use them. They had all sorts of stuff set up: a lounge to hang out in before the game, in universe training videos. I think it was $10 for a gaming session.

 

They weren't standard arcade fare.

[Lynxpro]

I grew up with Atari and that era of all-joystick controllers. I always held them like a big, awkward, rubber D-pad, with my right thumb on top of the stick and my left thumb on the fire button. It's not like there's anything special about their innards, they're simple digital bubble buttons underneath. D-pads are fast, small, convenient, and universal. I like them.

 

I think a lot of kids did that. I'd do that depending upon the title I played with the CX-40s. And when I did, I used my right thumb which is opposite of the standard side DPads were later assigned to. With the later Lynx, you could flip it over and use the DPad on the "other side".

[Andromeda Stardust]

The comparison was inevitable the moment that the NES forced game players to play games designed for trak-balls, spinners, paddles or analog flight yokes with that shitty d-pad, get it? No self-respecting game fan would shithammer the d-pad onto a game like Missile Command or Tempest or Warlords or Battlezone or Tron or whatever games used control schemes that were not one 8-way joystick operated by the left hand and 2-6 buttons operated by the right. That was Nintendo's fuck up. By default, then, the bastardized d-pad version of the game played on the NES would always be compared to how the original version of that game, whatever it was, played with its much different controller layout. And inexperienced/ignorant gamers wouldn't notice the difference and think that all games could be played with one marginal digital controller.

 

To reiterate, d-pads and joysticks are not paddles, spinners, trak-balls, analog sticks, light guns, steering wheels/gear shifters or other unique controllers. To force games that utilized those unique controllers to make do with the horrible d-pad is either lazy, cheap or stupid. So don't hate on people because they have a different expectation for the correct controller scheme for the game they're playing than you do.

How did Atari not do the same things with it's 8-way joystick that Nintendo did with the Dpad? Everyone blames Nintendo for the Dpad but it sure was better than the stiff joysticks Atari made.

 

I love the feel of a quality joystick but even I think the CX-40 was garbage.

[Flojomojo]

Atari "shithammered" Missile Command, Battlezone, and Tempest (unreleased, because it looks like underpants) into their 8-way stick, which is just a big D-pad with a rubber dingus on top.

[Andromeda Stardust]

Atari "shithammered" Missile Command, Battlezone, and Tempest (unreleased, because it looks like underpants) into their 8-way stick, which is just a big D-pad with a rubber dingus on top.

You know, a fun Atari joystick mod would be to hack the length of control stick off but for a small stud, and affix a giant plus on top., painted matt black with orange inlay for the direction arrows.

[sega_SHARK]

I like this thing. For one button games.

 

[ledzep]

How did Atari not do the same things with it's 8-way joystick that Nintendo did with the Dpad? Everyone blames Nintendo for the Dpad but it sure was better than the stiff joysticks Atari made.

Oh, Atari did do the same thing, mostly due to a lack of an actual trak-ball controller. I don't deny that or pretend that it was more excusable simply because Atari was the company doing it. It sucked. It ruined quite a few games. We would play them as "better than nothing" considering at the time there was the Atari 2600 and fuck-all else (I know of no one who had a Fairchild or Odyssey 2) and some of the consoles that showed up immediately after the Atari didn't even have those games (Asteroids, Missile Command, Centipede, etc.) so it was 2600 (at the time) or nothing. Add that to terribly primitive graphics (kudos to the programmers who could make actual good-looking games from that mess) for many games, it was a disappointment (I love Surround but what the fuck, blocky as hell). But the future was a ways off, the Atari was a great first console to have at the time, some of those games (Combat, Pong, Air-Sea Battle) simply weren't in the arcades anymore so it's not like we could thumb our noses at the 2600 and go play them in the arcade as they were meant to be played, right?

 

But (there's always a 'but') Atari did have the presence of mind to have removable controllers along with native analog support. Which means that games that were best with buttons could be played with something like the Starplex, games that were best with paddles could be played with paddles, games that were best with a driving controller (damn you, Atari & 3rd party companies, for not supporting that thing) could be played with driving controllers, games that were best with a trak-ball could one day be retconned/hacked into using a true trak-ball, etc. And people who didn't like the Atari joystick (and there were many) could use a different joystick. If you were too cheap or lazy to go get those extra controllers, so be it.

 

But the option was there. Specifically, the option was designed in. Atari made paddle-specific games, keyboard-specific games, (one) driving controller-specific game. The 5200 had its analog joystick and its magnificent trak-ball. The Vectrex had its analog joystick as well with the promise, never realized, of having other controllers plug into its own controller ports (at least Fury Unlimited addressed that a bit).

 

That is a mindset issue, as explained previously. The assumption, the expectation of specific controls for specific games. However incomplete, Atari had the arcade game mindset, meaning that it was no big thing to require a game to have a unique control scheme (love the twin joysticks for 5200 Robotron and Space Dungeon!), to even consider it. And though the 5200 never officially came out with paddle controllers, since the joystick was analog (two POTs) changing one into a paddle controller was easy and made games like Breakout and Kaboom! infinitely better. Later consoles came about at a time when arcades were dying or were filled with simplified joystick/button games or were nothing but driving and fighting games. Less variety, less expectation of variety. I don't find it difficult to understand that Nintendo would offers hundreds of games that all used a d-pad style control scheme. Why not, that's what the current market was used to. I do fault them for not thinking a bit outside the box and offering more unique gaming experiences like Atari had. It wouldn't have been hard, they could make more money (extra controllers aren't cheap), more variety for more types of games so the world wasn't saturated with side-scrolling platformers and fighting games.

 

I love the feel of a quality joystick but even I think the CX-40 was garbage.

 

I like the Atari joystick but I won't defend it as being great. The plethora of 3rd party joysticks speaks to the CX-40's limitations. I love the CX-52 joystick but I agree that it not self-centering was a design fuck up, as was those mushy fire buttons (though having A and B fire buttons on both sides was a good idea). The CX-53 trak-ball was more or less perfect.

 

There was no way to reasonably expect Atari or any other company to duplicate completely the many arcade control options for a home console. That shit is expensive and cumbersome. But to not even try? To just say fuck it, d-pads for everything? No thanks. Some Atari controller implementations were more successful than others, to be sure, but at least they tried. It's important to the arcade game mindset, worthless to the d-pad mindset. Which I still believe is an important reason (not the only reason) for why (back to the subject) a lot of people getting into retro games (meaning they didn't grow up with them or weren't previously caring about older systems) would be more aligned with more recent consoles that were for the most part all d-pad and joypad games, ignoring or discounting the earlier Atari systems that would require hunting down and maintaining multiple controller types. Too much trouble, annoyingly different from the "standard" d-pad controller they're probably more familiar with.

[+wongojack]

I actually used to openly malign the CX-40, but it has a nice tight throw that is really perfect for some games. It is much easier to play Cosmic Ark or Frostbite with the CX-40 than one of those wide throw sticks that I used to use exclusively (Wico Bat etc).

 

Adding to the actual discussion - It was already mentioned, but I think the lack of composite is a bigger deal than controllers for those trying to get into the pre-crash systems.

[Flojomojo]

ledzep, what exactly is the point you are trying to make? Atari was never the only one with custom controllers. Colecovision, Sega, and Nintendo did the same thing, again and again. Maracas, bongos, robots, light guns, voice modules, steering wheels, memory expansions, bazookas, motion controllers, tilt boards, modems, mice, keyboards, arcade sticks, trackballs, cameras, and more. The Wii had a ton of silly add-ons that are even more awkward than anything Atari brought out, and many required extra batteries. Guitar Hero and Rock Band require plastic instruments for everyone.

 

I agree with the point that "no one wants a lot of extra junk" to go with their games, but it's never been applicable only to retro or Atari.

[ledzep]

ledzep, what exactly is the point you are trying to make? Atari was never the only one with custom controllers. Colecovision, Sega, and Nintendo did the same thing, again and again. Maracas, bongos, robots, light guns, voice modules, steering wheels, memory expansions, bazookas, motion controllers, tilt boards, modems, mice, keyboards, arcade sticks, trackballs, cameras, and more. The Wii had a ton of silly add-ons that are even more awkward than anything Atari brought out, and many required extra batteries. Guitar Hero and Rock Band require plastic instruments for everyone.

 

I agree with the point that "no one wants a lot of extra junk" to go with their games, but it's never been applicable only to retro or Atari.

 

True. Simply trying to answer the question initially asked. You're right, Colecovision and Sega and others had differing controllers, some more than others, some required more than others. But the 2600 has, in comparison, garbage graphics. So, since the original question was wondering why a lot of people getting into retro games skip the Atari, I tried to answer based on that. If it was only weird controllers/arcade high score type games then it would probably include other consoles like you mentioned. But I think only the Atari had the combination of odd-ball controllers + mostly arcade game style high score games and almost no platformers or fps or environment style games + terrible graphics. One or two, maybe, but those newer retro gamers tolerating all three? I don't think so. A few, sure, but in general a d-pad/exploration game mindset wouldn't bother. I never got into Guitar Hero because I outgrew Simon when I was in grade school.

[Jinks]

And I just trolled a bit with my comments. Sorry. Atariage is better than this.

Like at the end of the day people like what they like and it will never seem logical to the other but that is what makes atari great. I mean um...

[Lynxpro]

Atari "shithammered" Missile Command, Battlezone, and Tempest (unreleased, because it looks like underpants) into their 8-way stick, which is just a big D-pad with a rubber dingus on top.

 

It's been theorized that Atari Inc would've re-released a lot of those 2600 games with native Trak-Ball support had they survived the crash. To their credit, and Dan Kramer's persistence, they did place the native Trak-Ball support code into a lot of the 5200's library whether or not the games used that type of controller in the arcades. There was also another reason to do so; future steering wheel and yoke controllers could piggy-back off that code. That's why 5200 Pole Position has native Trak-Ball support in it…Dan was working on a steering wheel controller for the 5200. He was using the Atari Pole Position arcade steering wheel as the basis. But the impact of the crash killed the project; same with his yoke controller based upon the Atari Star Wars arcade controller. Atari Corp could've picked up the mantle but it seems like they were already occupied with the future attempts to get third party developers to support the 7800 and XE Game System. I'm still angry that they didn't release the 7800 Pro Line Joystick Coupler, but then again, there's only 2 in the world and they would've probably been trashed in the early transition period between Inc to Corp had someone not liberated them. At any time, they could've contacted Gary Rubio for the schematics for that, the High Score Cartridge, or the computer accessories for the 7800 that Inc and GCC developed. Alas...

 

There are hacks for the retro community to further use specific controllers for 2600 games. There's a 2600 Battlezone hack to use dual joysticks but you'll want to use ones that have a fire button at the top of the stick. And of course, there's been hacks for Missile Command for at least a decade but now there's hacks for Centipede, Millipede, Reactor, and two homebrew hack titles with more to come. I wouldn't hold my breath on AtGames implementing any of these in the next Flashbacks. I'm surprised nobody has hacked 2600 Crazy Climber to restore Dual Joysticks. I guess since it was a rare Atari Club release to begin with that that's been overlooked since most people back then didn't have it.

[Lynxpro]

I actually used to openly malign the CX-40, but it has a nice tight throw that is really perfect for some games. It is much easier to play Cosmic Ark or Frostbite with the CX-40 than one of those wide throw sticks that I used to use exclusively (Wico Bat etc).

 

Adding to the actual discussion - It was already mentioned, but I think the lack of composite is a bigger deal than controllers for those trying to get into the pre-crash systems.

 

Based upon the videos on Youtube, the CX-40 is easy to mod to use switches. That would greatly improve it.

 

Mind you, I've never tried a CX-10. I'd like to. I do intend to get the Epyx 500XJ at some point, and the Amiga Power Shot as well.

 

I broke my Atari Space Age Joystick while using it on the Atari ST port of Double Dragon back in the day… That was a good port of the game…same with the Lynx version. The recent hacks to the 7800 version are very cool too.

[Lynxpro]

I like this thing. For one button games.

 

 

For all of the scorn that controller receives, it's one of the first to implement the modern sculpted thumb shape into the thumb stick itself. The Sega Master System controller predates this one but it didn't have that sculpting to it. I wonder whether anyone has taken one of these and swapped the DPad and Stick itself into a Lynx...

[Flojomojo]

It's been theorized that Atari Inc would've re-released a lot of those 2600 games with native Trak-Ball support had they survived the crash.

[AtarinDave]

Between joysticks and dpads, I'd probably prefer dpads. I like joysticks in certain games, but most of them fit the dpad in my opinion.

 

I think we can all agree that the wii controllers sucked.

[HoshiChiri]

 

You didn't get the memo providing irrefutable evidence that the 5200 is the biological father of the Jaguar? C'mon, look at the undeniable family resemblance… the keypad on the controllers. The ability to use analog joysticks [although they never did get around to releasing any]. Both having kick-ass versions of Tempest. And the shape of the cartridges!

 

No, 5200 owners like the Jaguar. In fact, some 5200 owners would like to have the ability to use the Jaguar Pads on the 5200.

 

 

I have a sudden urge to see some sort of bizarre Maury Povich thing with the 5200 trying to say the Jaguar is really the Colecovision's kid, he couldn't have possibly had anything to do with it. Then he gets the 'You ARE the father' and mom screams him down. Wait... who the heck IS mom?

[Andromeda Stardust]

 

Based upon the videos on Youtube, the CX-40 is easy to mod to use switches. That would greatly improve it.

 

Mind you, I've never tried a CX-10. I'd like to. I do intend to get the Epyx 500XJ at some point, and the Amiga Power Shot as well.

 

I broke my Atari Space Age Joystick while using it on the Atari ST port of Double Dragon back in the day… That was a good port of the game…same with the Lynx version. The recent hacks to the 7800 version are very cool too.

One thing I don't understand, why the CX-40 used dome switches under the joystick instead of silicone pads. The pads are so much more responsive than dome switches and literally never wear out, even after 20 years of use. The Flashback joysticks are basically carbon copies of the CX-40, but they use pads instead of dome switches, and that one difference makes them worlds better than the CX-40, even if they're not as good as say a joystick with a proper base plate like the Advantage.

 

Even the keypad controllers are a stiff mess because of the dome switches. Compare that even to a modern TV remote control that uses silicone pads. No comparison.

 

Did silicone pad / carbon dot tech not exist in the 70s?

[Flojomojo]

Maybe because the CX-40 launched during the Carter administration?