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Jaguar Component Video Mod Attempt


SwampFox56
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Hi guys!

I'm going to be attempting a test run of my universal RGB to YPbPr (Component) video circuit once I receive my LM1881's (Comp. Sync Stripper and Amplifier). I've done the breadboarding, I've done the math, and it's all solid. The circuit works! Though, I'm curios. What consoles would most people like to see receive the first RGB to YPbPr mod?

Jaguar is my first choice because A.) I own a Jaguar B.) The Jaguar has been completely neglected in terms of mods for the console C.) This is Atari Age. So I assumed you guys would say jaguar anyways. But that's why I'm asking ;)

Anyways. Which RGB supporting console needs a Component Video mod the most?

Edited by SwampFox56
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Not to poop at your party but I'd like to point out for cheap converters there's already something direct to HDMI

http://www.amazon.com/Scart-Video-Converter-Scaler-Coaxial/dp/B00MUNIVRO

 

By any means go ahead and make yours, just pointing out the obvious here as after the mod a custom cable is also needed I venture.

Edited by phoenixdownita
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Not to poop at your party but I'd like to point out for cheap converters there's already something direct to HDMI

http://www.amazon.com/Scart-Video-Converter-Scaler-Coaxial/dp/B00MUNIVRO

 

By any means go ahead and make yours, just pointing out the obvious here as after the mod a custom cable is also needed I venture.

 

I've used these before and I don't like them. I bought two different ones off eBay (the popular $50 one that has no manufacturer name on it) and a little more expensive $74 one that also had no manufacturer name on it. Both produced the same problems... horrid lag. The picture didn't look too bad, but they weren't usable. Which is too bad because I'd love a cheap alternative to an XRGB Framemeister. But unfortunately, I just can't afford $300 on a upscaler.

 

Also the mod will require holes drilled in plastic of most any console and phono jacks wired from the PCB. In theory... I could make this a cable for practically any console, however, they'd be some pretty damn expensive cables...

 

On a side note, I'm gonna post some pictures of the circuit. I had PCB's made (thanks to Helder) and the mod is based off of ACE's schematic. The heart of the mod lies within the BA7230LS chip.

Edited by SwampFox56
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Not to poop at your party but I'd like to point out for cheap converters there's already something direct to HDMI

http://www.amazon.com/Scart-Video-Converter-Scaler-Coaxial/dp/B00MUNIVRO

 

By any means go ahead and make yours, just pointing out the obvious here as after the mod a custom cable is also needed I venture.

 

Let me add that I bought one of these (for my RGB modded N64) and it sucked. It also fried a chip on it's board after a few months an became a paperweight (awesome Chinese QA).

 

I think it would be fun to see a YPbPr mod for the Jaguar, if anything, just to say it had been done. And if it can be done relatively cheaply, it might be a good alternative for a lot of people to dishing out $300 for an XRGB mini...

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Component will still have whatever lag your TV has in the up scaling process, though I imagine it's better than garbage HDMI converters. With enough consoles I think it's more economical in the long run to get an xrgb. Great product and no drilling holes in consoles.

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I think its neat since as you stated SwampFox, the Jaguar is neglected when it comes to console mods. Personally, I'd like to see a component mod on a Gamecube so those of us unlucky enough to not have the component cable/don't have $200 to throw down a hole could experience progressive scan on it (easy argument of "use a component cable and original Wii" is valid, but I like the original systems if it is feasible).

 

More power to you as Scart converters and cables are kind of annoying.

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Yeah, it's so annoying to plug a SCART cable into a console and then into the xrgb. Much more convenient to drill holes and then plug 3 separate cables into those jacks instead. Much less hassle than a single SCART cable.

Taking out the xrgb, you need adapter(s) to work anywhere else. And finding scart/modding for scart can be (but not always) expensive and time consuming, but I see where you are coming from. Still having a hard time deciding if $300+ is worth an xrgb or not for me personally.

 

Or you could just get a CRT and call it a day ;).

Edited by 032-Bias
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A better video mod would be to tap into the raw buffer signals from the motherboard and make the Jag do its own internal HDMI signal. There are similar mods for the DreamCast, N64, and NES and they work pretty well from what I understand. Virtually no lag and the circuitry is customized for each console. It would be cool of the Jag can do this. I would certainly get one for my unit.

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Taking out the xrgb, you need adapter(s) to work anywhere else. And finding scart/modding for scart can be (but not always) expensive and time consuming, but I see where you are coming from. Still having a hard time deciding if $300+ is worth an xrgb or not for me personally.

 

Or you could just get a CRT and call it a day ;).

Once you have one semi-decent SCART to HDMI adapter you only need SCART cables and not adapters (some console don't even have RGB anyway so one way or another you need to mod the console).

 

I have an XRGB Mini with one Euro SCART to JP21 adapter (because the damn XRGB Mini ships with a JP21 adapter only) to which I added a switchable LM1331 sync stripper and the rest is normal non CSYNC scart cables for the relative consoles.

 

 

A better video mod would be to tap into the raw buffer signals from the motherboard and make the Jag do its own internal HDMI signal. There are similar mods for the DreamCast, N64, and NES and they work pretty well from what I understand. Virtually no lag and the circuitry is customized for each console. It would be cool of the Jag can do this. I would certainly get one for my unit.

Boy are those things expensive though ;-)

Edited by phoenixdownita
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I would like to see a component video convertor for the Jaguar which does not require an external power source, so it would be just a cable or a small box with jacks on it. I actually have a kit in pieces which I'd like to work on again over the winter, but soldering isn't as much fun nowadays as it was 20 years ago. ;)

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IC U3 on the Jaguar motherboard looks to be a RGB to Composite/S-Video converter chip.

 

# MC13077DW

 

But this caught my eye, Pins 5, 15 and 16 have these designations but are tied to ground through 3 caps.

 

Pin 5 LUMA (G-Y?)

Pin 15 B-Y

Pin 16 R-Y

 

If I'm not mistaken, isn't B-Y and R-Y part of the component output?

Edited by SoundGammon
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IC U3 on the Jaguar motherboard looks to be a RGB to Composite/S-Video converter chip.

 

# MC13077DW

 

But this caught my eye, Pins 5, 15 and 16 have these designations but are tied to ground through 3 caps.

 

Pin 5 LUMA (G-Y?)

Pin 15 B-Y

Pin 16 R-Y

 

If I'm not mistaken, isn't B-Y and R-Y part of the component output?

Those are external capacitors for the clamp circuits.

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IC U3 on the Jaguar motherboard looks to be a RGB to Composite/S-Video converter chip.

 

# MC13077DW

 

But this caught my eye, Pins 5, 15 and 16 have these designations but are tied to ground through 3 caps.

 

Pin 5 LUMA (G-Y?)

Pin 15 B-Y

Pin 16 R-Y

 

If I'm not mistaken, isn't B-Y and R-Y part of the component output?

Damn you got me excited for a second. Took a look at the datasheet, and while most chips don't even have a spot for Color Difference variation, all these inputs do is clamp Pb and Pr. Why would you want to do that? Well it's hard to explain but basically, just like any other electrical current these signals have high and low peaks (or bursts). Clamping the signal with a cap, dulls that voltage variation.

 

Anyways, here some picture of the uncompleted PCB (just need the parts to show up). After that I'll be attempting this on my Jaguar.

 

Empty PCB

 

WP_20151120_003_998082.jpg

 

Unfinished PCB

WP_20151120_001_998075.jpg

 

 

This is the schematic the PCB was designed from. (Thanks to Ace for this brilliant work).

 

BA7230_LS_RGB_to_Component_converter.png

 

 

Edited by SwampFox56
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Hate to double post, but I thought I should mention this.

I've heard Tim Worthingtons YPbPr kit that he designed for his NES/2600RGB kits works universally. However - it requires buffered RGB signals. The BA7230LS, however, is able to take raw RGB and process it to amplifiable state.

 

Viletim's YPbPr kit pic below.

549_image.jpg

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I get wanting to mod the older systems that don't output RGB, but why are people against the xrgb? Honest question. Is it the price? You can get RGB cables for the Master System, Genesis 1/2/32X/CDX, Saturn, SNES, PS1/2, Jaguar and Neo-Geo that require absolutely no mod work. PC-E can be modded pretty easily for RGB. How much would it cost for a component mod for each of those? That was the draw for me, the ease of use and not having to drill any new holes or have wires hanging out the back. And even with a component mod, you're still at the mercy of your TV's upscaler, so it that's garbage, you will see noticeable input lag. Edit: Unless it's a CRT of course.

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^^^^ what madman says ^^^^

 

I ended up doing both, I modded all the consoles I could to SVideo, then as some had off timing I ended up getting RGB cables and the xRGB Mini.

I tried cheap converters SVideo/Composite to HDMI that were required to play a couple of PAL only consoles I had laying around and for a while it worked [even in PAL60].

Finally the addition of a 50/60Hz switch to some NTSC consoles pushed me over and the xRGB was the only option, because no converter does NTSC50 (not even the xRGB Mini) over SVideo but RGB does not have that issue.

 

If I had to go back and redo it again I would bypass the SVIdeo modding and just cough up for the xRGB Mini, I just got my RGB cable for the Jag yesterday and I added a 50/60Hz switch to it, and it all works like charm.

One thing that I noticed though is that I had to add a Sync Stripper in front of the xRGB Mini RGB input as the composite used as sync on many std cables (NeoGeo, SMS among other) is unclean and causes issues.

 

You can read my (mis)-adventures here:

http://assemblergames.com/l/threads/%E3%83%95%E3%83%AC%E3%83%BC%E3%83%A0%E3%83%9E%E3%82%A4%E3%82%B9%E3%82%BF%E3%83%BC-framemister-xrgb-mini-english-firmware-free-hdmi-37000-yen-shipped.44220/page-32#post-824512

 

 

By any means go ahead with the component project, make sure it accounts for 50/60Hz switchable consoles and hopefully it will all work out. If someone only has 1 or 2 consoles it may be a good way to go.

 

EDIT, IMPORTANT:

I do not know how that circuit works but my LCD TV does not take 240p via component, and if the circuit transforms it into 480i (but I doubt) it won't look as good as it should.

Keep it mind, I believe old CRT TVs may accept 240p via component easily. Modern LCD/Plasma TVs not so much.

 

EDIT2: found my own answer, no conversion straight 240p over component or actually whatever is input via RGB goes to Component (so the TV has to support it).

http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?22237-New-RGB-to-Component-converter-design-using-the-BA7230LS&p=708652&viewfull=1#post708652

Edited by phoenixdownita
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why are people against the xrgb? Honest question. Is it the price?

I believe this is the main obstacle, yes. All of the reviews of the XRGB that I've read praise its quality, but the price is pretty steep, especially in comparison to those cheap HDMI converters you can find on eBay (even if there's a noticeable quality difference). It's also unfortunate that it requires an European-to-Japanese SCART adapter, and an external sync stripper for some sources ; that's the kind of stuff that should be included for the price.

 

If you're happy with a smaller screen, another option is a real RGB monitor (CRT). Pretty easy to find in Europe, since almost every TV set has a SCART input, and most people get rid of old CRTs to get LCDs instead ; with a bit of patience, you can often get one for free by asking around. It's more complicated in the USA ; you can use old Commodore and Atari monitors, but they're harder to find and they require custom-made adapters, since most don't have SCART inputs.

 

For those who are comfortable with modding TV sets, there's also this:

https://web.archive.org/web/20100609144202/http://133fsb.wordpress.com/2010/05/22/adding-an-rgb-input-to-a-cheap-generic-ntsc-tv/

http://nfggames.com/forum2/index.php?topic=4159.0

Edited by Zerosquare
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I believe this is the main obstacle, yes.

...the price is pretty steep

It's also unfortunate that it requires an European-to-Japanese SCART adapter, and an external sync stripper for some sources ; that's the kind of stuff that should be included for the price.

...

Amen to that, they should have an option to ship with a Scart adapter instead of a JP-21 adapter, but they are a Japanese company so ... can't fault them for that.

The lack of a switchable sync stripper on the input is inexcusable imho as it's a 1US$ part, either that or they come up with a sync stripping SW update for their input conditioning circuit (not sure it is even possible the LM1881 is pretty good at that).

Edited by phoenixdownita
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Maybe it's just me, but surely, a Component OUT mod for the Jag, or any other console, cannot be compared with an Upscaler like the XRGB?

 

Even IF you achieve Component out, it won't be at HD resolution and will STILL need to be upscaled to look decent? No?

 

I run my Wii via Component on my Viera and, unless the developer has opted to go for simplistic 2D or Vector style 2D visuals, then the visuals look like ass. Especially prevalent when running previous gen titles via Wii VC on my Wii through Component.

 

Surely Component will just lend itself to offering a cleaner signal to Upscale for modern TV units??

 

Or... have I got this all wrong? :?

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