Gyruss for the Atari 7800?

[Jaynz]

Now all that's needed is someone to write the code! Anyone?

And the music...

 

And the 16 large, then 16 medium, then 16 small sprites for each enemy ship, and that's if you want to keep it simple...

[Andromeda Stardust]

 

Two replies from him:

 

 

Even though his unfinished list is 5 games, (with one sounding almost finished) he said he's not going to make Gyruss. I'm just looking for someone who will.

Wait, wasn't he working on Baby-Pac? Is that still a thing??? Bob, if you're reading this, please say "yes."

[Andromeda Stardust]

And the music...

 

And the 16 large, then 16 medium, then 16 small sprites for each enemy ship, and that's if you want to keep it simple...

Yeah any arcade game is going to be a lot more work than "move some stuff around on screen."

 

This game would be awesome with on cart Pokey, plus second Pokey in XM and the Yamaha. You'll need all thouse extra notes...

[JimC79]

I was never really impressed with Gyruss, but did pick it up for the 8-bit. I'm hopinmg someone will tackle Missile Command.

 

Just out of curiousity would you rather have Gyruss or Missile Command with both joystick and trakball controls?

 

Ok, Bob, I can't do the 5K, but I can do the women. Just one catch...they're my age.

 

Jim

[VectorGamer]

In the making... Look for Vectruss

 

http://www.kristofsnewvectrexgames.comli.com/

 

Kristof is awesome! His games are amazing.

[Jaynz]

Yeah any arcade game is going to be a lot more work than "move some stuff around on screen."

 

This game would be awesome with on cart Pokey, plus second Pokey in XM and the Yamaha. You'll need all thouse extra notes...

You don't need THAT much for 8-bit music. Gyruss is a fine example of it, but a single Pokey could do most of what Gyruss would require. It's a matter of being very clever in synthesis rather than throwing out notes. (Seriously, listen to Gyruss's arrangements. Really not as complex as people think.) Yamaha really is SERIOUS overkill for early 1980s games.

[Jinks]

The yamaha could do it easily by itself.

[Corby]

would love to see Gyruss on the 7800. Use to play that lots on the colecovision

[MobiusAqua]

You don't need THAT much for 8-bit music. Gyruss is a fine example of it, but a single Pokey could do most of what Gyruss would require. It's a matter of being very clever in synthesis rather than throwing out notes. (Seriously, listen to Gyruss's arrangements. Really not as complex as people think.) Yamaha really is SERIOUS overkill for early 1980s games.

 

For grins and giggles, I threw Prickle into MESS, and Random Terrain's Tone Toy 2008 into Stella, to see how close I could get to imitating the "Perfect!" cue from the chance stage. I found that neither the POKEY, nor the TIA, could hit the really low square wave notes you hear first, but I got pretty close, by using a low sawtooth wave. The three other chords you hear afterward are two notes, in the same key, played at the same time.

But now that you've mentioned that, I'm curious; I hope this doesn't sound weird, or demeaning/insulting in any way, but is there an example for that? Because that actually sounds pretty interesting, and I'd love to see how someone could do something like that, with just a single POKEY's four channels.

[Andromeda Stardust]

You don't need THAT much for 8-bit music. Gyruss is a fine example of it, but a single Pokey could do most of what Gyruss would require. It's a matter of being very clever in synthesis rather than throwing out notes. (Seriously, listen to Gyruss's arrangements. Really not as complex as people think.) Yamaha really is SERIOUS overkill for early 1980s games.

For a full rendition of Bach's Fogue in D minor, you need an ass-load of notes playing simultaneously. Not to mention that earth shaking subsonic ~17Hz D note near the end that only the largest of pipe organs can reproduce. I've heard it in person at a recital when I attended the University of the Ozarks from 1999-2001. They have a chapel there that was built in the 1890s, housing the largest pipe organ in Arkansas. Anyway the performance was mind-blowing.

 

Gyruss heavily sampled Bach's organ music in game which is why it had 4 synthesizer chips dedicated solely to the soundtrack. I propose an extended PCB with an ass-ton of Pokeys (or Yamahas) to play this track. It would make an impressive sound demo for sure.

 

And speaking of Yamaha as overkill for 80s games, why does my Mr Gimmick Repro have one in it? The original Mr Gimmick used one, for play the Famicom, a system originally released in 1983.

[The Usotsuki]

That's an AY8910, I thought, not a YM2151.

[Jaynz]

And speaking of Yamaha as overkill for 80s games, why does my Mr Gimmick Repro have one in it? The original Mr Gimmick used one, for play the Famicom, a system originally released in 1983.

Okay, fine. Let me be blunt then. We'll never see a Yahama in any meaningful numbers within anything for the 7800, and it's now beyond stupid to keep pretending that it's the best, or even a reasonable, solution for games like Gyruss with multi-note scores. So if you want to see a 7800 Gyruss eventually, the first step would be to take it out of Unicorn and Fairy-Land.

[toiletunes]

Okay, fine. Let me be blunt then. We'll never see a Yahama in any meaningful numbers within anything for the 7800, and it's now beyond stupid to keep pretending that it's the best, or even a reasonable, solution for games like Gyruss with multi-note scores. So if you want to see a 7800 Gyruss eventually, the first step would be to take it out of Unicorn and Fairy-Land.

Edit: XM joke removed.

Edited December 8, 2015 by toiletunes

[Andromeda Stardust]

That's an AY8910, I thought, not a YM2151.

I don't know what it is. I opened my Mr Gimmick Repro and yep, it's got the cheese-colored INL board with the AY-something synth chip soldered in there.

 

How many simultaneous notes can the Yamaha play? Pity Sega removed it from the US/PAL Master Systems. FM synths are neat.

[Trebor]

Pity Sega removed it from the US/PAL Master Systems. FM synths are neat.

 

Indeed. The YM2413 provides some great improved audio for ~60 Sega Master System games that support it; including some games which never saw a release in Japan. Coincidentally, in conjunction with the recent Double Dragon discussion, it is one of the SMS titles that benefits beautifully from it. Although a pity it is removed from US and PAL models, an SMSFM expansion board can be added to them for enjoyment of that better quality sound.

 

Gyruss contains five AY-3-8910 chips for sound...LOL. Interestingly, Yamaha did provide a clone of the AY-3-8910, their YM2149.

 

How many simultaneous notes can the Yamaha play?

 

A simplified overview of the Yamaha chips mentioned breaks down like this:

 

YM2151 (7800XM) = 8 voices/channels.

YM2413 (SMSFM) = 9 voices/channels.

YM2149/AY-3-8910 = 3 voices/channels (x5 for Gyruss) = 15 voices/channels plus Gyruss contains a DAC for the digital to analog conversion overhead.

[Andromeda Stardust]

Cool beans. Yeah Gyruss did indeed use a bunch of notes for the Bach remix.

 

There's an enhanced SMS adapter available from Stone Age Gamer that adds FM sound to the Genesis, but I would also have to buy an SMS Everdrive to make good use of it. I only have the standard pin adapter. Everdrive MD already plays SMS games so it would be somewhat redundant to buy the Master Everdrive plus the enhanced adapter just to get FM sound. SMS stock sound isn't bad compared to what the 7800 gave us, but lacks the distinctiveness of say NES or Game Boy chip music. When I hear NES or Game Boy, I immediately recognize it as such. Ditto for Atari TIA sound. Maybe I haven't played enough SMS games, but the NTSC/PAL systems lack that distinctiveness.

[Lynxpro]

 

Indeed. The YM2413 provides some great improved audio for ~60 Sega Master System games that support it; including some games which never saw a release in Japan. Coincidentally, in conjunction with the recent Double Dragon discussion, it is one of the SMS titles that benefits beautifully from it. Although a pity it is removed from US and PAL models, an SMSFM expansion board can be added to them for enjoyment of that better quality sound.

 

Gyruss contains five AY-3-8910 chips for sound...LOL. Interestingly, Yamaha did provide a clone of the AY-3-8910, their YM2149.

 

 

A simplified overview of the Yamaha chips mentioned breaks down like this:

 

YM2151 (7800XM) = 8 voices/channels.

YM2413 (SMSFM) = 9 voices/channels.

YM2149/AY-3-8910 = 3 voices/channels (x5 for Gyruss) = 15 voices/channels plus Gyruss contains a DAC for the digital to analog conversion overhead.

 

It must be the DAC that truly enhances the audio then because if the AY-3-8910 and the YM2149 are the same, that means Gyrus has 5 of the same krappy audio chips as the Atari ST. If I recall - and correct me if I'm wrong - a DAC and some other circuitry was added to the Atari STEs so the audio was a whole lot better for the few games that took advantage of the advancements.

 

The YM2149 is definitely no YM2151. And to think, had Atari Inc not collapsed, the subsequent Atari Games' arcade titles wouldn't have used the YM2151 at all - most likely - because they were planning to use Atari's Advanced Research's AMY [16 voices] sound chip that the Tramiels at the later Atari Corp could never figure out how to get working and sold off.

[Andromeda Stardust]

Amy never even boarded the bus. Neither did her boyfriend Gumby.

[Stun Runner 87]

How about a port of Grand Theft Auto San Andreas for the Atari 7800.

(͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

[Jaynz]

These threads demanding Yahama for EVERYTHING always takes me to..

 

"And now the XM will have a PS3 emulator on board for that authentic 7800 experience!"

 

Really, guys, some realistic expectations would go a long way to get things done.

[78001987]

I don't really care about game sound that much when talking about these old 8-bit consoles. Some people go crazy for cornball chipmusic, I don't get it. I mean sure, pokey sound is nicer. more arcade accurate for ports is always good. but no matter how great a game sounds, if the graphics or gameplay aren't there, it really doesn't matter. And yes, I know some of the sound on original 7800 titles was pretty lazy - but then so were some of the graphics, and the controllers, and the marketing, etc. etc.

 

I'm with Jaynz here. better games is great, but if they start including things that were never really feasible back in 1986/87 when these games were released, it's a bit of overkill.

 

I'd love to see someone correct other things too, like a Pro-line joystick with microswitches and more ergodynamic 3d printed buttons. Not a major design change, but just make the original coffin-sticks more responsive.

 

I'd also like to see a Composite/S-Video/Component mod that also compensates for the color phase shifting problem that makes commando and a few others look wrong, so that I don't have to mangle the tint/hue settings on my gaming LCD TV to get some games to look right.

Edited December 11, 2015 by 78001987

[Jaynz]

If I was going to choose /hardware/ improvements, I would start with:

 

1) RF Output to component cables that doesn't require a hardware mod.

2) New joypads, 2600/7800/Genesis slider .

3) Atari Vox that directly mixes to the output cable...

4) New 'blank' 7800 cart boards with expanded ram and POKEY-sim built-in.

 

Nothing there that requires Unicorn Magic . But, instead, the 'hardcore fans' seem to want to turn the 7800 into a PS3... just so we can play Gyruss with "ALL TEH SOUNDZ"? Who wants to pay at least $200 for a cart of that game?

[Trebor]

The YM2149 is definitely no YM2151. And to think, had Atari Inc not collapsed, the subsequent Atari Games' arcade titles wouldn't have used the YM2151 at all - most likely - because they were planning to use Atari's Advanced Research's AMY [16 voices] sound chip that the Tramiels at the later Atari Corp could never figure out how to get working and sold off.

 

Sega rolling-out games with YM2413 support for their console in 1986 and 1987, it's truly a shame having AMY already specified, drafted, and signed off by the various Engineering and Testing departments in August 1983, that events went down the way they did and it was never saw the light of day.

A different turn of events and the passing of 3-4 years, who knows how the AMY chip would have already been mass manufactured and adapted for the various markets, ready for utilization during 1986-87 on the 7800 platform. It’s just as big of a shame that Gumby experienced even less of a chance of ever making it to the system. *Tips hat to stardust*

 

Who wants to pay at least $200 for a cart of that game?

 

There is no need for a $200 cart. Although all of this is hypothetical and discussion in good fun, possibly one way to address the sound piece of Gyruss would be HOKEY/POKEY cart usage with the game's sound primarily focused on making the 4 channel POKEY, plus 2 channel TIA, 'sing' as best as possible; very similar to Commando. Both the 2600 and 5200 could be referenced as a spring board for sound utilization ideas and maybe even (some) code from those ports.

Also, perhaps it could be "XM Enhanced" with sound code in place for addressing an optional - not required - YM2151 for an additional 8 channels of sound.

[Andromeda Stardust]

 

I'd also like to see a Composite/S-Video/Component mod that also compensates for the color phase shifting problem that makes commando and a few others look wrong, so that I don't have to mangle the tint/hue settings on my gaming LCD TV to get some games to look right.

I have a Best AV-modded 7800. Unlike the Electronics Sentimentalities mod, the audio between Pokey and TIA on the Best mod seems perfectly balanced. I recently won a Commando on eBay and briefly tested it last night. However, the colors are putrid on this game for some reason. I haven't attempted to adjust the hue settings on the CRT, but sometjing is ovbiously wrong with the colors in this game specifically, and I know with 100% certainty that both hue pots on my 7800 are properly calibrated, because I tweaked them myself. Does this symptom only show on AV modded systems, for this game specifically?

[Andromeda Stardust]

 

 

Sega rolling-out games with YM2413 support for their console in 1986 and 1987, it's truly a shame having AMY already specified, drafted, and signed off by the various Engineering and Testing departments in August 1983, that events went down the way they did and it was never saw the light of day.

A different turn of events and the passing of 3-4 years, who knows how the AMY chip would have already been mass manufactured and adapted for the various markets, ready for utilization during 1986-87 on the 7800 platform. It’s just as big of a shame that Gumby experienced even less of a chance of ever making it to the system. *Tips hat to stardust*

Yeah Atari was lazy. Had they released the 7800 in 1984 and not cheaped out on parts, it would have gained significant market share and Nintendo would not have had their near total monopoly on the games market. NES would likely have ultimately won, but we would have seen more third party games released for 7800/SMS, and the system would have been pushed more during it's heyday, rather than not realising it's full potential until 25-30 after it was relevant, largely due to homebrew efforts.