Gyruss for the Atari 7800?

[Trebor]

Does this symptom only show on AV modded systems, for this game specifically?

 

There are two different items at play here without adding the quality or a possible issue of an A/V mod into the mix:

1. The aforementioned color phase shifting. This does not affect "Commando", as that game uses a $1x value for its ground color. Color phase shifting has zero impact on the $1x values. Color phase shifting does significantly impact other titles though, such as "Choplifter" for its ground color and the enemy birds in "Joust"; both utilize a $Ex value. Color phase shifting biggest visual impact is on the $Ex and $Fx values.

2. Default hue/tint setting of various display screens. This directly impacts the $1x values (I.E. Commando ground).

Many NTSC CRT vs. many modern displays have a default setting that balances slightly differently compared to one another:

-NTSC CRT = ‘Slightly’ more red towards green, less red towards blue. 'Traditionally' interpret this as overall 'more red' with a tint/hue setting feature.

-LCD/LED/Plasma/Etc. = ‘Slightly’ more red towards blue, less red towards green. 'Traditionally' interpret this overall as 'more green'.

Additionally, there are some color palette values that are closer to transitioning to a ("significantly") noticeable different color than other ones.

The slightly changed hue/tint setting effect is seen on other platforms as well; for example, the sky in Super Mario Bros for the NES. Many displays, mostly CRT, will show it as a 'true' blue, while most other displays, modern ones, show the sky leaning more towards purple. The ground in Battletoads is another good NES example. Some displays, mostly CRT, show an abundance of brown clearly throughout, while other displays, particularly modern ones, display it more as a mostly green ground.

Various hard coded palettes for emulators try to either reflect and imitate the resulting CRT colors or the modern display colors, or some hybrid combo.

 

...I know with 100% certainty that both hue pots on my 7800 are properly calibrated, because I tweaked them myself.

 

The pots often referenced inside the Atari console adjust the degrees of color phase shift, instead of the hue.

 

A factory tuned console may be set to a color phase shift of ~25.7 degrees (Visual $1x matches $Fx); ideally reaching ~26.7 degrees (All unique colors - 128 for A2600 & 256 for A5200/A7800) when warmed up, but typically goes as high as ~27.7 degrees ($1x matches $Ex & $2x matches $Fx) when running consistently longer. When "cold" it's ~24.7 degrees.

[CPUWIZ]

If I was going to choose /hardware/ improvements, I would start with:

 

1) RF Output to component cables that doesn't require a hardware mod.

2) New joypads, 2600/7800/Genesis slider .

3) Atari Vox that directly mixes to the output cable...

4) New 'blank' 7800 cart boards with expanded ram and POKEY-sim built-in.

 

Nothing there that requires Unicorn Magic ™. But, instead, the 'hardcore fans' seem to want to turn the 7800 into a PS3... just so we can play Gyruss with "ALL TEH SOUNDZ"? Who wants to pay at least $200 for a cart of that game?

 

3.) I've experimented with this on expansion port systems, no success so far.

4.) You do know that my VersaBoard can do bankswitched games, with RAM and POKEY, right?

[Lynxpro]

Amy never even boarded the bus. Neither did her boyfriend Gumby.

 

 

GUMBY was complete vaporware. From what Curt has revealed, to the best of my knowledge, GCC didn't complete any work on it…and possibly never even began to work on it in the first place. The AMY actually existed. It's just that Atari Corp couldn't get it to work without the original Atari Inc Advanced Research staff that made it. I'd really like to hear John Palevich's (sic) side of the story since he worked on AMY, left the sinking ship that was Atari Inc, then jumped into the fray by licensing DANDY to Atari Corp as Dark Chambers to counter Atari Games' Gauntlet. Seems like it would've made sense to contract with him then to get the AMY finally working and then slap that sucker into what became the STE. We're talking 1987 so it could've happened with more foresight. The AMY could've made it into 7800 cartridges too.

[Lynxpro]

I don't really care about game sound that much when talking about these old 8-bit consoles. Some people go crazy for cornball chipmusic, I don't get it. I mean sure, pokey sound is nicer. more arcade accurate for ports is always good. but no matter how great a game sounds, if the graphics or gameplay aren't there, it really doesn't matter. And yes, I know some of the sound on original 7800 titles was pretty lazy - but then so were some of the graphics, and the controllers, and the marketing, etc. etc.

 

I'm with Jaynz here. better games is great, but if they start including things that were never really feasible back in 1986/87 when these games were released, it's a bit of overkill.

 

I'd love to see someone correct other things too, like a Pro-line joystick with microswitches and more ergodynamic 3d printed buttons. Not a major design change, but just make the original coffin-sticks more responsive.

 

I'd also like to see a Composite/S-Video/Component mod that also compensates for the color phase shifting problem that makes commando and a few others look wrong, so that I don't have to mangle the tint/hue settings on my gaming LCD TV to get some games to look right.

 

There's videos on YouTube on adding microswitches to the ProLine just as there are for the CX-40 and even the Colecovision controller.

 

The YM2151 could've been doable in 1986/87. It wouldn't have been doable with the original 1984 test market release or the cancelled Christmas 1984 release. Adding POKEY and RAM could've happened then as well. It certainly wouldn't have been 128K but the 7800 did last until 1992ish so it could've been done sometime before then.

[Lynxpro]

Yeah Atari was lazy. Had they released the 7800 in 1984 and not cheaped out on parts, it would have gained significant market share and Nintendo would not have had their near total monopoly on the games market. NES would likely have ultimately won, but we would have seen more third party games released for 7800/SMS, and the system would have been pushed more during it's heyday, rather than not realising it's full potential until 25-30 after it was relevant, largely due to homebrew efforts.

 

Atari wasn't lazy. Warner took the ax to Atari Inc in July 1984 and sold the Consumer Division to Jack Tramiel. That ruined the planned release of the 7800 nationally for Christmas 1984. It was the console the retailers wanted and it would've revived the industry then. Of course, that all depended upon Atari Inc having survived. Atari Inc surviving with both Consumer and Coin [later to be known as Games] would've still been a power house to contend with and not the anemic mess that was Atari Corp. The system would've been on the market for a solid year by the time Nintendo did their New York test market. Crushed and c-blocked are what comes to mind. The Japanese games would've ultimately made it to our shores but it would've been just like in the previous years where they mainly - I say mainly because Sega did produce carts over here for the 2600 & 5200 - licensed them to American publishers to produce for the North American and European markets, not with Nintendo or Sega [via Tonka] doing it themselves. Are some of us [still] bitter it didn't happen like this? Of course. Just read up on just a fraction of what Atari Inc wanted to do and all of the hardware and software they developed over the years that never made it to market. Even in our time line, the fractured Atari [Corp] and Amiga [several ex-Atari Inc engineers] both produced computer platforms that were a good decade ahead of the DOS/WinTel computers. But had Atari Inc survived, they would've launched the Amiga chipset as a 16-bit game console

 for Christmas 1985. Think about that for a sec… A 16-bit console 4 years before the debut of the Sega Genesis.

[RevEng]

For a full rendition of Bach's Fogue in D minor, you need an ass-load of notes playing simultaneously. Not to mention that earth shaking subsonic ~17Hz D note near the end that only the largest of pipe organs can reproduce. I've heard it in person at a recital when I attended the University of the Ozarks from 1999-2001. They have a chapel there that was built in the 1890s, housing the largest pipe organ in Arkansas. Anyway the performance was mind-blowing.

Gyruss Arcade does nowhere near a full rendition of Toccata and Fugue. Do an A/B comparison of the first minute or so of both of these...

 

 

...the arcade score is simplified greatly, skipping or simplifying the bits with tons of voices. Gyruss has discrete stereo sound which uses twice the number of voices. I think a very good arrangement could be made with POKEY up front, and TIA heavily multiplexed for drums and sound effects, as Trebor suggested. Imagine the A8 version with an extra voice or two freed up...

 

[Lynxpro]

Gyruss Arcade does nowhere near a full rendition of Toccata and Fugue. Do an A/B comparison of the first minute or so of both of these...

 

 

...the arcade score is simplified greatly, skipping or simplifying the bits with tons of voices. Gyruss has discrete stereo sound which uses twice the number of voices. I think a very good arrangement could be made with POKEY up front, and TIA heavily multiplexed for drums and sound effects, as Trebor suggested. Imagine the A8 version with an extra voice or two freed up...

 

 

I raise you Dual POKEY+TIA. It's too bad the XM can't support Dual POKEY like the XBOARD can. Actually, it's a shame there aren't more XBOARDs out there or that it isn't being produced. Can someone just make some more XBOARDs, please? There's also the option of using DPC+.

 

Thinking back to the AY chips and 5 of 'em being in the arcade original… I don't think I've ever seen an ST upgrade board that supported Dual YM2149s. I swear I've seen a modern Mockingboard clone for Apple IIs that had enough sockets for 4 AYs.

 

I like A8/5200 Gyruss. However, there's supposedly a different 5200 version that wasn't ever released. The 5200 version released by Parker Bros was a port of the A8 original.

[boxpressed]

A8, 5200, and Colecovision all have very fun ports of Gyruss. For my money, it's the game that benefits the most from an arcade stick as a controller. Even a Genesis Power Stick is a huge upgrade for the A8 and CV ports. If you can get this combo going, give it a try. You won't be sorry.

[Andromeda Stardust]

Gyruss Arcade does nowhere near a full rendition of Toccata and Fugue. Do an A/B comparison of the first minute or so of both of these...

 

 

...the arcade score is simplified greatly, skipping or simplifying the bits with tons of voices. Gyruss has discrete stereo sound which uses twice the number of voices. I think a very good arrangement could be made with POKEY up front, and TIA heavily multiplexed for drums and sound effects, as Trebor suggested. Imagine the A8 version with an extra voice or two freed up...

 

Ah yes, the Bach score. Watching the whole thing, there is at least one instance which use up to 9 notes. Also certain notes have different timbres. Twin Pokeys could handle up to 8 8-bit notes or 4 16-bit notes. 16-bits would be advisable for the treble notes as 8-bit frequencies may be slightly off-key. And yeah, now that I think about it, the Gyrus soundtrack is heavily remixed with drums and such. The drums/percussion could use the TIA noise effects with the notes played on dual Pokey.

 

I'm wondering if the XM will properly pass and mix the external audio to the 7800 if the cart is configured to use both in-cart Pokey in addition to XM Pokey. Or utilize the Yamaha as well...

[Jaynz]

3.) I've experimented with this on expansion port systems, no success so far.

I figured this one would be tricky, but it should be /possible/ somehow. Again, this isn't a 'I want to see these RIGHT NOW' sort of things, just more surprised we're not further along - though I suppose the XM sucked the air out of the room...

 

4.) You do know that my VersaBoard can do bankswitched games, with RAM and POKEY, right?

Got enough for more homebrews?

[CPUWIZ]

Got enough for more homebrews?

 

Even Albert has 500 of them.

[Jaynz]

Even Albert has 500 of them.

We're so sorry,

Uncle Albert...

But I haven't played an Atari game today.

 

We're so sorry,

Uncle Albert...

But the VersaBoards are done, and homebrews will be made!

 

Yeah, yeah...

[Andromeda Stardust]

Yes, but uncle Albert also needs the Hokey Pokeys. Let there be DK Pokey and Super Circus AtariAge and Bentley Bear!

[8th lutz]

Yes, but uncle Albert also needs the Hokey Pokeys. Let there be DK Pokey and Super Circus AtariAge and Bentley Bear!

True, but I don't see Albert selling DK Pokey. My reasoning is Albert already had to deal with Nintendo due to Princess Rescue despite the fact DK Pokey wouldn't be getting the attention as Princess Rescue did from the video game media.

Edited December 15, 2015 by 8th lutz

[Andromeda Stardust]

True, but I don't see Albert selling DK Pokey. My reasoning is Albert already had to deal with Nintendo due to Princess Rescue despite the fact DK Pokey wouldn't be getting the attention as Princess Rescue did from the video game media.

D'oh!

 

Oh, and he's still selling Princess Rescue's spirit sister Zippy. Get one now before Sega's legal team finds out!

[Lynxpro]

D'oh!

 

Oh, and he's still selling Princess Rescue's spirit sister Zippy. Get one now before Sega's legal team finds out! |

 

My kids were watching some cartoon the other day and it had a Zippy the Porcupine character in it. Made me do a double-take. I hope it wasn't from Pig Goat Banana Cricket High FIve.

[Andromeda Stardust]

 

My kids were watching some cartoon the other day and it had a Zippy the Porcupine character in it. Made me do a double-take. I hope it wasn't from Pig Goat Banana Cricket High FIve.

Someone has got to port Bonk's Adventure to the 2600. Hudson/NEC mascots get no love...

[MobiusAqua]

Someone has got to port Bonk's Adventure to the 2600. Hudson/NEC mascots get no love...

Why not have someone port it to the 7800? It could look just as good, if not better, than the NES port, use the POKEY (or YM2151) for background music, and maybe be more like the TG-16 version in ways the NES version wasn't (end-of-level sequences with different music, and the screen following Bonk as bonuses are counted up, for two examples), with some Engrish fixed ("Begin 2 Round", anyone?).

[Lynxpro]

Why not have someone port it to the 7800? It could look just as good, if not better, than the NES port, use the POKEY (or YM2151) for background music, and maybe be more like the TG-16 version in ways the NES version wasn't (end-of-level sequences with different music, and the screen following Bonk as bonuses are counted up, for two examples), with some Engrish fixed ("Begin 2 Round", anyone?).

 

Yeah! Frak the 2600! The 5200 and 7800 need more love!

[Sprybug]

 

My kids were watching some cartoon the other day and it had a Zippy the Porcupine character in it. Made me do a double-take. I hope it wasn't from Pig Goat Banana Cricket High FIve.

No sh*t? Do you have any more info on it?

[Jinks]

No sh*t? Do you have any more info on it?

Wanna say great work on your game! A masterpiece for the 2600!

[Corby]

always loved the music on that game

[+x=usr(1536)]

Since the thread's been exhumed, I figured it's probably worth mentioning something regarding the music in Gyruss.

 

Although the music is based on J.S. Bach's Toccata and Fugue, the version that the arcade game draws from is by the band Sky, and dates from 1980.

 

 

This should clarify why the arcade game didn't completely match the sound or structure of the original piece.

[+Muddyfunster]

Such a great piece of music.

[BIGHMW]

Since we're on the subject matter of "Toccata") Andre Previn featured it (his version not Sky's version) in the opening sequence of the 1975 cult hit, Rollerball, one of my all-time favorite films. There should be a video game based on this film (or at least the action on the track).