Keatah Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 The VCS never really had load times, because when you swap a cartridge you are essentially changing the sole program on a fixed-function computer. Much like the early aerospace computers. Sure, some of the more sophisticated games may unpack or expand some game data on the fly but that's nit picking and insignificant because of the VCS limited main memory, if it has a main memory at all!! Load times only apply when you're taking bulk data from mass storage and putting it into smaller temporary storage. Decompressing graphics and likewise is more a housekeeping. I've said it before, the essence of the VCS is the interplay between TIA, RIOT, 6507, and configured by the Game Program. It's not much more advanced than the state machine in the Disk II controller card for the Apple II series of computers. As soon as power is applied it gets down to business. It doesn't fart around with BIOS delays or checks, or timers for hardware initialization. Compare that against dot-com era PC and its BIOS. Load times only apply when you're taking bulk data from mass storage and putting it into smaller temporary storage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 Most game consoles since 8-bit era used video RAM with indirect access, and had to load graphics into it (often uncompress as well). All ColecoVision (yeah!), Master System, Genesis, TG16, SNES games doing that, and good amount of NES games did it as well. That's kind of 'load times', just without explict loading bar. SNES also used audio RAM that had to be loaded with data as well, not too fast too. In extreme cases that could lead to noticeable load times, see Batman Forever for SNES, it even had a 'hold on' screen. I personally hid that sound loading time with a copyright screen in some SNES homebrews, and suspect that some commercial games did this as well. So, while we were calling these delays, caused by moving data from media into RAM, 'loading time' only on systems with non-solid state media (tapes, floppies, CDs), because it was explictly called like that there, similar things were exist on systems with solid-state memory as well, just not that noticeable, and thus not called so explictly. Regarding the loading screens, only NES / Famicom had actual tile graphics memory addressed directly to the cartridge. This is why every game has two ROM chips (or a PRG ROM and a CHR RAM which needs to be preloaded with graphics tiles every time the console is booted). This allowed expandability of the cartridge format beyond the 8kbytes of Character ROM using bankswitching, instantly swapping out entire tilesets when other competing game systems of the era would have taken time and resources to copy tile data into video memory. That primarily helped a game console initially released in Japan in 1983 to stay relevant worldwide until the mid 90s. That being said, even many SNES titles displayed static splash screens which revealed information about the publisher before the game booted. I think these were really done as a form of brand recognition rather than to really mask lenthy load times. Nitnendo first party titles always seemed to have less screens allowing to get to the title screen faster. but I feel it was more about branding than anything. The SNES only had 128kbytes of main memory, plus a separate storage area for the audio processor. this 128kbytes of data did not take long to load. Also one thing I loved about Nintendo's decision to use cartridge media for the Nintendo 64 was seemingly instantaneous loading of stages and levels from the cartridge. Many PS1 games had abysmally slow load times with the stock 2x drive, although the experience of many of these games were significantly improved when played in backwards compatibility mode on a PS2. Really with the existence of Class 10 or higher serial flash, I expect the loading times of the Coleco Chameleon to be a non-issue really. If it takes 5-10 seconds staring at a splash screen to reach the title menu, I don't see that as much of an issue. Modern devices have gigabytes of RAM, so most indie titles can be loaded into RAM memory in their entirety, so don't expect huge loading delays while playing the game. As for an OS, Android or Linux can be stripped down to bare bones to greatly decrease the required load times. I would imagine any required libraries used by the game could be included on the cartridge rather than the OS, provided licensing allows this type of usage. This would make the game development environment independent of software updates to the host OS, and faster load times overall. Preferably the game system could boot directly to the cartrdige and use a simple loader for housekeeping and stuff if the system is booted without a cartridge. From there the use could set the date/time and manage save data or A/V settings. Something like the Game Cube BIOS for an OS would be sufficient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pipercub Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 I really mean what I am about to say, don't read anything into it. I like carts, in terms of futureproofing, durability, reliability, and accesability they are the best format thus far in the industry. I have talked about it many times on RetroGaming Roundup, no matter what rights revert or contracts end or liscensing deals go bust, and even the desire of the industry to charge again for the same old thing carts are fireproof against all that. Once sold there is nothing that any entity can do to reach into my collection and disable or inhibit those games, there is no server they can take offline and no ties home, I just get to play my games exactly as I always have. I also like fiddeling with things and I like collections of things; tools, unbuilt RC kits, rare car and aircraft parts, and I also have a thing for the whole package aspect. Sure I can play almost any game on MAME but the artwork and the combined effect of the original articles lined up appeals to me which is why I (like so many of us in this hobby) enjoy having rows of arcade cabs, carts, original boxes etc. It isn't the idea of carts that is making this deal sour. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaybird3rd Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 I really mean what I am about to say, don't read anything into it. I like carts, in terms of futureproofing, durability, reliability, and accesability they are the best format thus far in the industry. I have talked about it many times on RetroGaming Roundup, no matter what rights revert or contracts end or liscensing deals go bust, and even the desire of the industry to charge again for the same old thing carts are fireproof against all that. Once sold there is nothing that any entity can do to reach into my collection and disable or inhibit those games, there is no server they can take offline and no ties home, I just get to play my games exactly as I always have. I also like fiddeling with things and I like collections of things; tools, unbuilt RC kits, rare car and aircraft parts, and I also have a thing for the whole package aspect. Sure I can play almost any game on MAME but the artwork and the combined effect of the original articles lined up appeals to me which is why I (like so many of us in this hobby) enjoy having rows of arcade cabs, carts, original boxes etc. It isn't the idea of carts that is making this deal sour. I agree. In this age of digital distribution, I think people often underestimate the value of cartridges, not only as a distribution medium, but as an art form. Atari cartridges from the late 70s and early 80s are especially interesting to me: there is the box artwork, usually featuring highly detailed paintings which were dramatic and evocative and gave the players a mental image that they could superimpose onto the simplistic audiovisuals of the games in their own imaginations. Then there are the cartridges themselves, whether they had the matte or picture labels: they were compact and durable and truly plug and play (with the possible exception of occasional contact cleaning). Owning those games, complete in the package, is a tactile experience that a digital download can't provide ... not even with cover art and manual scans. Plus, as you say, the cartridge is about as future-proof as any distribution medium we've ever had. Most of the systems that I still play and develop for (when I have time) are cartridge-based, and it's largely because of the permanency of that medium that I can still enjoy games from companies that have been dead for decades. That's unheard of in the realm of modern platforms with their activation servers and their DRM, all of which will surely be gone within a few years. I think one of the reasons I'm so pessimistic about the chances of making the cartridge a meaningful part of this new system is that modern platforms aren't designed to use memory in that way, certainly not the platforms that they had to choose from when they were faced with the task of cobbling together a game system out of nothing in the space of a few months. The promise that the new system will be "cartridge-based" brings a lot of high expectations among those of us who still value cartridges, and given the technical challenges and the costs involved, I'm not sure how they can deliver on it. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 The previous posts were really excellent. Thanks pipercub and jaybird3rd. When viewed as an art form cartridges make sense. Arrangements can look cool. Their accompanying art and box and other goodies are also cool if properly curated and displayed. Collecting them to just mindlessly collect them is wrong. Collecting them as a remembrance of childhood is cool. Collecting them to build something, a library, an arcade at home, yes that is cool too. Collecting screw and label variations.. That's fringe stuff. When viewed as a way to keep your games off-line and immune to corporate boardroom decisions, they also make sense. But this is something companies dislike. They want too much control. And want to be able to invalidate your library so you'll buy new stuff. You know, the whole planned obsolescence thing. Companies also feel they're missing out on fringe and impulse sales. Sales that carts discourage because of waiting and slow 2-day delivery. I disagree the modern methods of memory would dictate fail or success. Flash media can transfer data practically instantly. And even a slow-ass Class 10 SD card is more than fast enough. If the devs and designers write a good transfer routine I'm sure you can get excellent 2-second load times on low spec rigs. And I'm not concerned anyway because any delay that does occur gives me time to scratch my ass or halt an impending wedgie from briefs one size too small. However.. Cartridges are not immune to physical destruction, theft, loss, fire, flood, asteroid impacts, ravages of dysfunctional families and roommates and other sordid living conditions(!) ..things like that. Some of those things blew up my collection years ago. So, today, I have different requirements for my classic gaming setup. I have no desire to lose 20 cabinets and countless numbers of systems and carts again. Yet, the bulk of everything was getting overwhelming. And multiple ports across multiple systems wasn't helping much. Serious consolidation and de duplication would be happening sooner or later. One thing about an emulation collection is that it appeals to the preservationist in me, in a different way than carts do. My emulation material, all of it, runs totally offline and is completely independent and self-contained, including the host's operating system. I can manually bring new material over 100% on my terms. If I want to. If the internet were to disappear tomorrow I'd be good for 50 years. And finally, to me, there is nothing more "exotic" than a multi-all-in-one system. It's something I yearned for since being in grade school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickcris Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 (edited) retroillucid posted the brochure that will be at the toyfair in a different thread http://atariage.com/forums/topic/248602-coleco-chameleon-what-you-think/?p=3437366 As someone else pointed out, they spelled Colecovision wrong on the 1st page. This is my favorite quote from it though: Here’s What The Experts Are Saying... “The creators of the ColecoVision are backwith a new cartridge-based console!” I also like how they went totally vintage and their email address is @aol.com. Edited February 11, 2016 by mickcris 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 So then, the team that first envisioned THE Colecovision are back designing this console? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StopDrop&Retro Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 (edited) Here’s What The Experts Are Saying... “The creators of the ColecoVision are back with a new cartridge-based console!” Fucking knew it. So much for Mike claiming he has no control over what the media reports and he wouldn't have wanted them to say that. Saved for posterity's sake: Also: Yep. Yep. Yep. We fuckin called it. I also like how they went totally vintage and their email address is @aol.com. hehehe, I do the same!! Edited February 11, 2016 by StopDrop&Retro 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 (edited) Mike's current product isn't actually part of that history. If it is I don't see the connection. This system will need to stand on its own and make a name for itself from whatever features it's endowed with. Edited February 11, 2016 by Keatah 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenixdownita Posted February 11, 2016 Author Share Posted February 11, 2016 (edited) From the brochure: "In Addition To New Titles, Backward Gaming Compatibility Will Allow Previously Released Games To Be Played" The only backward thing is their mindless obstinacy in NOT editing, reading, spell checking and in general "common-sensing" what they write. Another one: "we understand the market and surround ourselves with supportive individuals that compliment our strengths" I can definitely see them complimenting each other, big pats on the back etc... as to instead complementing each other, not so much. Seriously, this is a company that will go onto KS to get money, but hey now they can always claim that the extra 0 tacked in to the right of the amount they want to fund is a typo .... priceless. EDIT: http://atariage.com/forums/topic/248602-coleco-chameleon-what-you-think/?do=findComment&comment=3437663 apparently we have another developer (PikoInteractive already announced he was back in the fray ...Godspeed) Edited February 11, 2016 by phoenixdownita 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StopDrop&Retro Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 EDIT: http://atariage.com/forums/topic/248602-coleco-chameleon-what-you-think/?do=findComment&comment=3437663 apparently we have another developer (PikoInteractive already announced he was back in the fray ...Godspeed) I think that's the owner of Collectorvision. They haven't made an announcement but they still have the Sydney Hunter photos up from June of last year. They keep the photos section of the FB page pretty well manicured so that's probably it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 I can definitely see them complimenting each other, big pats on the back etc... as to instead complementing each other, not so much. Holy crap. I had no idea these were different words. Learn something new every day. http://grammarist.com/usage/complement-compliment/ I think that's the owner of Collectorvision. They haven't made an announcement but they still have the Sydney Hunter photos up from June of last year. They keep the photos section of the FB page pretty well manicured so that's probably it. Please. The wanton censorship of their Facebook page is excessive even by North Korean standards... 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenixdownita Posted February 11, 2016 Author Share Posted February 11, 2016 (edited) Newly revamped retrovgs website, take a look it's very colorful http://www.retrovgs.com/ (I wonder if they went a little too "Coldplay-like Super Bowl 50" style) I kind of miss the old all-black background. Also not so sure about the one-liner: "Remember When. Play Again." Say what? At worst they missed a question mark after When, at best it's still horrible so it doesn't really matter. Sadly the system spec page is empty: http://www.retrovgs.com/projects.html As I said the last time around .... AMATEURS. EDIT: from their own picture http://www.retrovgs.com/news-press.html the Coleco booth (3057) size is 10x10 ... I presume that means feet so that's the size of a large closet ... I know because my storage unit is exactly the same size. If the complete team of the Coleco Chameleon shows up someone's gonna have to step outside or sit on Mike's laps ... nahhh outside it is. EDIT2: cannot fail to notice that after all this their likes on FB went up maybe 1K since the last miserable IGG campaign ... those are not good numbers if you ask me. Edited February 11, 2016 by phoenixdownita Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 Amateurs.. Indeed.. But everyone has to start somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Nathan Strum Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 Most importantly, the press will be there. The press couldn't possibly care less - assuming they can find them in the first place. Just looking at the map... it'd be sheer luck if someone stumbled across their booth, much less took the time to seek them out intentionally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Nathan Strum Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 The brochure is a joke, right? Someone made that up as a gag? No? Ya'd think, besides maybe getting someone to proofread it, they'd have paid a couple extra bucks for a less creepy looking stock photo of a gamer: This is what they think their target demographic is? Let's get a better look... Hmmm... well, I suppose it's interesting that the Chameleon will apparently support gaming headsets and Xbox controllers. Wait... Coleco is the company that "turned Donkey Kong into a huge brand"? Funny... I thought that was someone else. Started with an "N", I think. The writing throughout the brochure is terrible. If they hired a copywriter, they should fire him. If they didn't, they should fire the person that didn't hire one. Or hire one as a scapegoat, then fire him. Besides grammatical and spelling errors, typographical mismatches and atrocities abound. Plus looking at the PDF - the Coleco logo is a pretty low-resolution bitmap. Very sloppy. Then there are gems like this callout: Here’s What The Experts Are Saying... The Verge - “The creators of the ColecoVision are back with a new cartridge-based console!" You just can't buy press like that! 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Austin Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 *grabs popcorn* (again) 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schizophretard Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 However.. Cartridges are not immune to physical destruction, theft, loss, fire, flood, asteroid impacts, ravages of dysfunctional families and roommates and other sordid living conditions(!) ..things like that. Some of those things blew up my collection years ago. So, today, I have different requirements for my classic gaming setup. I have no desire to lose 20 cabinets and countless numbers of systems and carts again. Yet, the bulk of everything was getting overwhelming. And multiple ports across multiple systems wasn't helping much. Serious consolidation and de duplication would be happening sooner or later. One thing about an emulation collection is that it appeals to the preservationist in me, in a different way than carts do. My emulation material, all of it, runs totally offline and is completely independent and self-contained, including the host's operating system. I can manually bring new material over 100% on my terms. If I want to. If the internet were to disappear tomorrow I'd be good for 50 years. And finally, to me, there is nothing more "exotic" than a multi-all-in-one system. It's something I yearned for since being in grade school. That reads like a contradiction. Cartridges were immune to those things well enough that they lasted long enough to get dumped to have ROMs for you to be set for 50 years. They are so durable that even after destruction they get an afterlife. Immortal games that were born as cartridges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 Ya'd think, besides maybe getting someone to proofread it, they'd have paid a couple extra bucks for a less creepy looking stock photo of a gamer: Little kids are running away from it! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 That reads like a contradiction. Cartridges were immune to those things well enough that they lasted long enough to get dumped to have ROMs for you to be set for 50 years. They are so durable that even after destruction they get an afterlife. Immortal games that were born as cartridges. Maybe so.. How else to put it? It's simple media migration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schizophretard Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 (edited) Maybe so.. How else to put it? It's simple media migration. I just think cartridges can take more of a beating than cassettes, floppies, CDs, and even modern hard drives. Which is why I think it is wise of you to have back ups for your ROM collection. Edited February 11, 2016 by Schizophretard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flojomojo Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 That reads like a contradiction. Cartridges were immune to those things well enough that they lasted long enough to get dumped to have ROMs for you to be set for 50 years. They are so durable that even after destruction they get an afterlife. Immortal games that were born as cartridges.It's not easy to copy a cartridge without special equipment, though. ROMs live forever, cartridges can get run over by a truck! :-) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schizophretard Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 It's not easy to copy a cartridge without special equipment, though. ROMs live forever, cartridges can get run over by a truck! :-) With a chance of surviving the truck. Not that I recommend carts playing in the street. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PikoInteractive Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 (edited) I wish they had told me they wanted to re-do the website. There is a ton of room for improvement on their new site design. Edited February 11, 2016 by PikoInteractive 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 Newly revamped retrovgs website, take a look it's very colorful http://www.retrovgs.com/ ... Sadly the system spec page is empty: http://www.retrovgs.com/projects.html As I said the last time around .... AMATEURS. ... At least the system specs logo was colorful... http://nebula.wsimg.com/88e612758ea93c5120c59fbe98073877?AccessKeyId=E647432F0367AB6020A0&disposition=0&alloworigin=1 I wonder what's inside? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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