Coleco Chameleon .... hardware speculations?

[goldenegg]

From what I understand, since this is running an FPGA core for the SNES, they won't have to make a specific port to the Coleco Chameleon- they will just turn over the SNES ROM to RVGS Inc who will probably still charge them for production of cartridges and then repay royalties based on sales of the console.

 

 

This is something I have a problem with.

 

First, an FPGA isn't even required for this. They could support these SNES and other console home-brew games through software emulation, at a substantially lower cost (i.e. no FPGA needed). They need throwing around the FPGA as if it's some massively superior piece of hardware. FPGAs are awesome in certain situations, but all it's doing here is making the system more expensive.

 

The other issue is regarding so many of these games being available on other platforms, in physical cart form. Why would I buy the Chameleon to play these games, when I can buy the games for the system they were original developed for? I plan to get Sydney Hunter, but I'll be getting the SNES version. Without a solid list of exclusive titles, there's no reason for this system to even exist.

[phoenixdownita]

No no no, we need the Rainbow Troll edition. Each time it power on it yells "U MAD BRO??"

To be fair I am afraid all we're going to get is the Coleco Chameleon Sore Thumb edition if at all.

 

I'm pretty sure this thread is not helping them and yet they still CANNOT come up and say "it's not a SNES mini" ..... if it wasnlt wouldn;t that be the first thing you'd clarify.

Regarding the SNES FPGA as already mentioned if you had an HDMI SNES FPGA core you'd sell that alone and make very good profits (look at kevtris NES HDMI+ board) .... and yet they didn't even mention it until the allegations started to mount.

 

Definitely a Sore Thumb if you ask me.

[PickyOldGamer]

Totally agree, more stuff like the NX this year to look forward to and this thing, IF for some ungodly reason it can make to funding I will be surprised. All the way till Feb 26th will be interesting.

Edited February 14, 2016 by PickyOldGamer

[triverse]

 

This is something I have a problem with.

 

First, an FPGA isn't even required for this. They could support these SNES and other console home-brew games through software emulation, at a substantially lower cost (i.e. no FPGA needed). They need throwing around the FPGA as if it's some massively superior piece of hardware. FPGAs are awesome in certain situations, but all it's doing here is making the system more expensive.

 

The other issue is regarding so many of these games being available on other platforms, in physical cart form. Why would I buy the Chameleon to play these games, when I can buy the games for the system they were original developed for? I plan to get Sydney Hunter, but I'll be getting the SNES version. Without a solid list of exclusive titles, there's no reason for this system to even exist.

It is rather interesting that they first could not afford to create a prototype in time for the IGG campaign, that was in the works for many many months before going live. Yet, in the time since the IGG campaign ended they have not only been able to create a working prototype but also code an FPGA core for a console that was known for being notoriously tough to program for back in the day. On top of that, they are now apparently capable of actually producing a working Genesis FPGA in time for the Kickstarter in less than two weeks.

 

I agree though, they need exclusive titles. I don't care if they are Barney Goes to the Circus Speak and Spell. They have to have something. Preferably something for the market they are going after. If they are going with an FPGA core for the SNES how will the SNES games be different on the Chameleon? Will there be less slow down? Faster FPS action? Less flicker? What is there to make fans buy the Chameleon version over the SNES version (considering they will effectively be the same game code just different cartridge).

 

Something that strikes me weird on this is that, going by their IGG campaign, they are going after the collector market. Low serial numbers, limited editions in the upcoming Kickstarter (surely the first 1,500 units will be different in some significant way to warrant collectors to buy it). They have yet to show anything as far as box design- are they going to have a uniform look like SNES and Genesis did back in the day or are they going generic, with a small icon on the front, like 3DO and PC games? Collectors will want to know this stuff. Course, with what I have heard about the release window they have 8 to 12 months to work that out.

[jaybird3rd]

Why would I buy the Chameleon to play these games, when I can buy the games for the system they were original developed for? I plan to get Sydney Hunter, but I'll be getting the SNES version. Without a solid list of exclusive titles, there's no reason for this system to even exist.

That's the inherent dilemma of trying to produce a cartridge-based system in today's world. If you make it something totally new and unique, developers won't want to support it because hardly anyone owns it, and without games, consumers ultimately won't want it, either. But if you make it a clone of a popular system like the SNES, it may get you a larger starting library and more developer support, but there's no competitive advantage even if you manage to develop killer exclusives, because everyone can simply play the games on the original system. A sane person would have concluded that it isn't worth the trouble, and wouldn't have proceeded beyond the daydreaming stage.

 

Personally, I still like the idea that I was only half-seriously floating last year: why not just bring back the Jaguar? The RVGS/Chameleon has already been the butt of Jaguar jokes because of their reuse of the case, so why not "let the crime fit the punishment" and bring back the whole system? It's not as if people can just go out and buy a Jaguar nowadays; they're far too scarce and too expensive for casual collectors. Clone the Jag hardware, reissue the most popular/rare games from the original Jaguar library as your starting titles, and get together with Songbird and homebrew authors to create new games and ports.

 

I said last year that it couldn't have turned out any worse than what they ultimately ended up doing, and I think that's even more true now!

[Giltygear]

Anyone that backs this after all this bullshit is an idiot.

[+madman]

Personally, I still like the idea that I was only half-seriously floating last year: why not just bring back the Jaguar? The RVGS/Chameleon has already been the butt of Jaguar jokes because of their reuse of the case, so why not "let the crime fit the punishment" and bring back the whole system? It's not as if people can just go out and buy a Jaguar nowadays; they're far too scarce and too expensive for casual collectors. Clone the Jag hardware, reissue the most popular/rare games from the original Jaguar library as your starting titles, and get together with Songbird and homebrew authors to create new games and ports.

What would the point of that be? The Jag hardware was a crippled, buggy mess over 20 years ago when it was released. Why re-release the same mess when better hardware with better development environments exist in 2016? Should we also bring back rotary dial land line phones because, hey, RETRO?

[+Random Terrain]

Anyone that backs this after all this bullshit is an idiot.

Perpetually positive people praise preposterous products.

[Raticon]

What would the point of that be? The Jag hardware was a crippled, buggy mess over 20 years ago when it was released. Why re-release the same mess when better hardware with better development environments exist in 2016? Should we also bring back rotary dial land line phones because, hey, RETRO?

I think the core of the problem is the whole thing about "bringing back" anything.

Why go digging up corpses in the graveyard and try to bring those back to life when you can make sweet love and make something new instead? .

 

Point is, i think they should have aimed for something new from the beginning. Not playing ports of SNES games or old Flashback games. There are multitudes of ways to play these already from original hardware, clones and multisystems to simple PC emulation. The market is full already and their current plan is just playing frankenstein with Jag shells and Wii U controllers.

 

Making something new and original is very hard, however. Remember the Ouya? Remember any other dead format from the years of yonder? Massively harder, but a metric crapton more exciting than more of the same we had 25 years ago in my opinion.

[+remowilliams]

The biggest problem here is that if having SNES compatibility is (aha!) core to the product they intend to release, and they actually stuffed a SNES into a Jag shell (which almost certainly seems to be the case) to demo this capability, and there is no FPGA core in hand (which would rather seem to the case) - then what was done is actual flat out fraud.

[jaybird3rd]

What would the point of that be? The Jag hardware was a crippled, buggy mess over 20 years ago when it was released. Why re-release the same mess when better hardware with better development environments exist in 2016? Should we also bring back rotary dial land line phones because, hey, RETRO?

Well, you're right, of course. That's why I was only being half-serious. As I said before, the whole idea of bringing back old platforms for anything other than strictly delimited products like the Flashbacks is inherently problematic, no matter what platform you choose.

 

If anyone wants to develop "retro-style" games for vintage platforms, I think it'd be better to write software for the original machines that are still in existence (there are plenty of active legacy platforms to choose from), and maybe use embedded emulation if you want to reach a larger audience.

[+madman]

I think the core of the problem is the whole thing about "bringing back" anything.

Why go digging up corpses in the graveyard and try to bring those back to life when you can make sweet love and make something new instead? .

 

Point is, i think they should have aimed for something new from the beginning. Not playing ports of SNES games or old Flashback games. There are multitudes of ways to play these already from original hardware, clones and multisystems to simple PC emulation. The market is full already and their current plan is just playing frankenstein with Jag shells and Wii U controllers.

 

Making something new and original is very hard, however. Remember the Ouya? Remember any other dead format from the years of yonder? Massively harder, but a metric crapton more exciting than more of the same we had 25 years ago in my opinion.

Agreed. I like retro gaming as evidenced by the fact I hang out on AA, but it is what it is. Do I enjoy old games? Yep. Do I support new homebrew games on those old systems? Definitely. Do I want a new system that just plays games that already exist on their native platforms? No. Do I want a new system with purposely handicapped hardware for the sake of being retro because retro gaming is cool now and someone is out to make a quick buck? No.

[Flojomojo]

That's what I did with the IndieGogo, backing at the $10 teir. I did get my money back after the campaign ended. I'm not sure what Kickstarter's policy is, but I'm sure you can't just haphazardly delete updates. It will be something if Mike makes a statement he can't retract.

I'm having second thoughts on even backing this for a dollar, for the same reason I'm unwilling to "like" their Facebook page, even for tracking updates. I don't want my name anywhere near this thing, nor do I want anyone to think that I'm supporting it in any way. I just want to see what happens next.

[Andromeda Stardust]

I'm a giant manchild who is still totally into toys. This means that I'm actually seeing a lot of other areas of this toy fair in my youtube subscription feed, and I've been generally pretty jazzed about what I've been seeing at other booths.

 

The level of professionalism I see at other booths is quite different. 99% complete production models, and such.

Just have a look at what the 'cheapo generic nerf' booth looks like compared to coleco. Granted they've been stepping up their game lately, but I don't see any hint of electrical tape holding their shell around a nerf-branded blaster at all...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8O84-oWLRpc

That gun is so badass. Do want!

 

Also $20 for any rapid-fire nerf weapon seems like a no-brainer to me. Tons of "impulse buys" at that price.

[Keatah]

If anyone wants to develop "retro-style" games for vintage platforms, I think it'd be better to write software for the original machines that are still in existence (there are plenty of active legacy platforms to choose from), and maybe use embedded emulation if you want to reach a larger audience.

 

That's reasonable, by default when you do this you reach exactly the people who are likely to enjoy it.

 

On another note: when I read the ArsTechnica article the amount of reader comments against cartridges was surprising. The theme against carts was hassle. Everyone seemed to actually want online purchase capability.

[Andromeda Stardust]

The biggest problem here is that if having SNES compatibility is (aha!) core to the product they intend to release, and they actually stuffed a SNES into a Jag shell (which almost certainly seems to be the case) to demo this capability, and there is no FPGA core in hand (which would rather seem to the case) - then what was done is actual flat out fraud.

Mike Kennedy stated in a FB post that he was Full Monty running an SNES core on FPGA. given the overwhelming existing evidence that there was/is an SNES Mini taped and glued inside the shell, he is blatantly lying about the FPGA. Fitting he has deleted his own comments after AAers found out, but by then it was too late. He cannot moderate here.

 

I'm having second thoughts on even backing this for a dollar, for the same reason I'm unwilling to "like" their Facebook page, even for tracking updates. I don't want my name anywhere near this thing, nor do I want anyone to think that I'm supporting it in any way. I just want to see what happens next.

You're probably right. I actually felt kind of stupid backing the IndieGoGo at $10, even though I had little to lose. I really just wanted to subscribe to the "updates", and contributed knowing full well it would likely fail.

[cimerians]

[Andromeda Stardust]

 

That's reasonable, by default when you do this you reach exactly the people who are likely to enjoy it.

 

On another note: when I read the ArsTechnica article the amount of reader comments against cartridges was surprising. The theme against carts was hassle. Everyone seemed to actually want online purchase capability.

Online purchase capability is a great convenience, but what bothers me is DRM, and keeping my games after the server shuts down or the console can no longer "phone home." That's why I've supported many indie developers twice on Wii-U by purchasing disc copies of games I already downloaded. I have sealed copies of Luigi U, Shovel Knight, and Giana Sisters: Twisted Dreams DX. Why? I downloaded the games when there was no physical option, but I would prefer to support physical media whenever possible.

 

If ten years from now, my Wii-U breaks and I have to buy a new one secondhand, or data gets corrupted and I have to perform a factory reset, I'll still have access to at least some of my purchased games. In a digital only world, the future of legit retro gaming is dead, outside of blatant piracy. Say what you will about emulation, and I'm as guilty as anyone, but downloading and keeping full No-Intro Romsets, from dumps you did not create, on your PC or on a flash device, is still illegal and will remain so until 95 years after the system was abandoned commercially. We will all be dead in 95 years from now so it's really a moot point.

 

I've been playing on my Retro Freak lately, and it's game dumping ability has allowed me to legally enjoy guilt-free gaming by playing my own ROM dumps, with all the perks of having access to save states and other features.

[PlaysWithWolves]

 

 

Plus, we already put them on ebay:

[jaybird3rd]

For some reason, it never occurred to me to check over there until now, but there's a lot more background information over on the Retro Gaming Roundup forums about Mike and the RVGS/Chameleon project and how it was funded. Most of it is from late 2015, and maybe it's already old news to those who have been following this more closely than me, but it seems clear that there are deeper problems with the whole project than the purely technical aspects, which is pretty much what we've been focusing on.

Here and here are two especially eye-opening posts by SubaruBrat (aka Pipercub here on AtariAge). I hope he doesn't mind my linking to them; I'm doing it only because they'll probably get more views that way, hopefully even from casual classic gaming fans who haven't researched this project and might be tempted to impulsively back it on Kickstarter. I think those people need to know what they're buying into. Like most of us "outsiders," I've been scratching my head wondering how such a misguided project could have happened in the first place. These posts answer some of those questions, and not in a way that shows Mike in a very positive light.

omething that is very obvious if you know enough people involved is that socal's [Mike Kennedy's] ability to build a console began and ended with an idea, that was the extent of his ability. Everything else came from people who worked with him to give him a roadmap to turn his idea into an actual product were stakeholders, and those people were all shed as soon as he thought he had enough info to move forward without them. There is a sizeable group of people who were thrown under the bus and their contributions minimized or denied. Some of them we can mention and some are well known to us but don't want their names circulated in association with this debacle. Socal had many chances presented to him to undo the tangled mess but he forged right ahead.

Most recently he even threw John Carlson under the bus as being responsible for tanking RVGS. As much comedy gold as he has provided us with that is just wrong. I guarantee John was never told about the three previous designers that came before him and likely was unaware of the assets and PI transfers. In an interview published on ARS Technica Socal claimed that John Carlson autonomously ran away with the design and pushed it overbudget designing a Rolls Royce that priced them out of the market as if John did it all beyond his control.

[Andromeda Stardust]

Steven on Digitpress asked about their magazine not being updated with the issues promised. I thought I'd share my reply here:

 

Same here; I also read that and haven't received anything yet. The whole thing has been horribly mismanaged and honestly, the magazine is marginal at best. It's not what I expected when I pledged to support it on KS. If there even is a third year I am not giving them another penny. It shouldn't take this long to make a 72 page magazine.

Yeah I paid for six issues in year 2, recieved a total of 3 mags in all of 2015. Honestly, I hope they can get something out on paper with all the commotion about RVGS. Should they write an article covering their own Chameleon scandal, it will be exactly the kind of gloating self-praise I would expect from them at this point. A last trophy of good will to their dying fanbase that cannot be posthumously retracted due to it's permanence as print media. And why wouldn't they make out a 2-page spread advertising the Chameleon? Better yet all 72 pages? That's free advertising!

 

http://forum.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?174020-RetroVGS-New-Retro-Console-Trainwreck&p=2035301&viewfull=1#post2035301

[Pixelboy]

Watching you guys collectively dissect every image and analyze every piece of information, for a guy like me watching this unfold from the sidelines, if feels like Mike Kennedy is taking on the Borg.

[Andromeda Stardust]

For some reason, it never occurred to me to check over there until now, but there's a lot more background information over on the Retro Gaming Roundup forums about Mike and the RVGS/Chameleon project and how it was funded. Most of it is from late 2015, and maybe it's already old news to those who have been following this more closely than me, but it seems clear that there are deeper problems with the whole project than the purely technical aspects, which is pretty much what we've been focusing on.

 

Here and here are two especially eye-opening posts by SubaruBrat (aka Pipercub here on AtariAge). I hope he doesn't mind my linking to them; I'm doing it only because they'll probably get more views that way, hopefully even from casual classic gaming fans who haven't researched this project and might be tempted to impulsively back it on Kickstarter. I think those people need to know what they're buying into. Like most of us "outsiders," I've been scratching my head wondering how such a misguided project could have happened in the first place. These posts answer some of those questions, and not in a way that shows Mike in a very positive light.

Wow. If there is truth to that second link, there's no telling how low Mike Kennedy will go. He seems quite intent on bridge-burning everyone who helps him out with ideas or financial resources. The owner of the Chameleon brand name will learn this soon enough.

[triverse]

Well, if we are including RGR forums here. Then check this out

 

http://retrogamingroundup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7550&p=47969#post47969

 

Actually to be completely clear I cashed in some of our personal 401K to get the cash to buy the Jag tooling. Then I personally loaned that money to GameGavel,LLC to purchase the molds. The new console company will soon purchase the tooling from GameGavel,LLC and then GameGavel, LLC will pay me back the loan. Also, while the tooling was owned by GameGavel,LLC it sold a few thousand dollars in the translucent shells which all that money went back into the magazine. So there was no comingling of funds. As far as my decision to start a second company for the console, it was needed as I don't have enough stock to share with others, something that I will beed to do to grow the console business in the future. The idea though is for the console company to pay GameGavel,LLC/RETRO Magazine for subscribers ( all buyers of the console will receive a digital and or print subscription to the magazine ) and also for a dedicated multi-page section devoted to promoting the console, its games and developers. The console company will pay the going rate for that coverage. So both companies will be working together to benefit the other, but at arm's length. It is still very important to me that my "owners" in GG,LLC will see an upside tied to the success of the console.

[+5-11under]

Watching you guys collectively dissect every image and analyze every piece of information, for a guy like me watching this unfold from the sidelines, if feels like Mike Kennedy is taking on the Borg.

 

The sideline is the place to be!