Discussion about what to call a TI-99/4A with F18A

[+Schmitzi]

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TI-99/4A-teen (18)

 

TI-99/4ATN

[budz2355]

Just my opinion, but the chip is socketed so you could plug a jet engine in and it would still be a ti-99/4a with an updated 'X' to me

 

If I look back at my old posts I an kind of a purist and at one time considered setting up two ti machines, but in the end I decided against it.

 

I don't have any disk drive upgrades, no cf7s, no hdx, no nanopeb, no keyboard mods... I even stopped using my xb2.7 cart in lieu of a navarone expander and three stock carts. But I just couldn't ignore all of the amazing things 80 column and better sprite patterns allowed from just upgrading the vdp

 

Again, only my opinion, but I would argue that soldering different chips into your disk controller to make it DD (just one example) is more of a permanent change to the TI than dropping in a literal plug and play video chip. I like OLD CS1s rebadging addition and ultimately I can still play ToD, Legends and parsec right along with super amazing version of scramble and see 80 column BBS displayed in ANSI .

 

Also I don't want to come off as some purist elitist .... If someone wants to only run the TI via emulation on their phone or any other of the almost countless iterations / configurations of the TI-99/4a I think that is just one of the many things that makes this machine great. With all of the people on this forum I wonder if any two machines are set up the same?

[+Vorticon]

Just my opinion, but the chip is socketed so you could plug a jet engine in and it would still be a ti-99/4a with an updated 'X' to me

 

 

Not quite. The F18A truly is a leap forward in the TI's capabilities from a graphics as well as computational (GPU) standpoint. This is different from adding some esoteric storage device which does not change the base console's capabilities. Part of the fun of using a vintage computer is to try to push it to its limits in ways perhaps never intended, and using the F18A somewhat feels like cheating a bit. Let be clear however and state that taking advantage of the F18A from a programming standpoint is by no means a walk in the park and requires substantial skill. But in the end, it's just not a TI...

[Omega-TI]

Hmmmm time of an ANONYMOUS poll...

[budz2355]

Posted Today, 5:33 PM

budz2355, on 16 Jan 2016 - 5:17 PM, said:

Just my opinion, but the chip is socketed so you could plug a jet engine in and it would still be a ti-99/4a with an updated 'X' to me

 

Not quite. The F18A truly is a leap forward in the TI's capabilities from a graphics as well as computational (GPU) standpoint. This is different from adding some esoteric storage device which does not change the base console's capabilities. Part of the fun of using a vintage computer is to try to push it to its limits in ways perhaps never intended, and using the F18A somewhat feels like cheating a bit. Let be clear however and state that taking advantage of the F18A from a programming standpoint is by no means a walk in the park and requires substantial skill. But in the end, it's just not a TI...

 

Not quite. The F18A truly is a leap forward in the TI's capabilities from a graphics as well as computational (GPU) standpoint. This is different from adding some esoteric storage device which does not change the base console's capabilities. Part of the fun of using a vintage computer is to try to push it to its limits in ways perhaps never intended, and using the F18A somewhat feels like cheating a bit. Let be clear however and state that taking advantage of the F18A from a programming standpoint is by no means a walk in the park and requires substantial skill. But in the end, it's just not a TI...

 

Just stop now... You said my opinion is not my opinion to me

 

[Asmusr]

Let be clear however and state that taking advantage of the F18A from a programming standpoint is by no means a walk in the park and requires substantial skill.

 

I didn't know you had experience in F18A programming. Welcome to the club.

[+Schmitzi]

...I have more than one hobby. One love is my old, original TI-99/4A.

Another one is my other TI-99/4A (and some more), which I try to grade up, to pimp, or whatever

[matthew180]

Asmusr-M already mentioned this, but I'd like to reiterate the point a little. I believe the SMB code only uses the F18A's hardware supported scrolling and 4-colors per sprite/tile (enhanced color more 2). AFAIK the GPU is not being used and is just sitting idle.

 

Using those enhancements might create something that the original *VDP* could not do, but the CPU and other parts of the 99/4A are obviously up to the task of a game like SMB. Also, the F18A does not provide functionality (other than the speed of the GPU) that was not available to other systems at the time. The NES's PPU (picture processing unit) was a slightly enhanced 9918A with hardware scroll support, 2-bits per color, eight sprites on a line, and a few other small changes. Heck, the 6502 in the NES was running at less than 2MHz! It was just that little bit of extra color (4 colors in a sprite/tile vs 2 color) and smooth scrolling that really made the difference in the appearance and quality of the game experience. Even coin-op games of the same era were only slightly better than the 9918A, but that was all that was need to make a difference.

 

When I was coming up with F18A features, I really started with things I wish the 99/4A could do back in the day. Some extra colors and smooth scrolling were the two main missing features in the 9918A IMO, and I don't really consider having hardware scroll support as cheating. That kind of heavy pixel pushing is much better suited to the VDP or dedicated hardware (which may very well use a CPU other than the main system CPU).

 

Asmusr-M has already shown what everyone thought was impossible; the 9918A *is* capable of full-screen smooth pixel scrolling. But it comes at a huge resource cost. You lose a lot of VRAM and available tile patterns, plus a lot of CPU time managing the VRAM updates. On an already limited system, every little bit of CPU time and memory counts.

 

To me, the 99/4A should really have a 320x240 display with 16-colors per pixel from a 256-color palette. Two tile layers over a bitmap layer, a blitter, and some hardware sprites. That would go nicely with the 3MHz 9900. Of course a little more RAM would be nice, say 1MB supported by a memory mapper and some opcodes to support long jumps between pages. All of this was available at the time and some systems came very close. If I could squish the Williams Joust system, the 99/4A, and MSX1 together, you might have such a system.

 

So, I have no idea what all that really means, I've lost my train of thought...

 

As for the name, my opinions:

 

99/4F - too easy to confuse with the 4A

99/18A - better I suppose

 

Some of my own thoughts (not that I particularly like any of these either):

 

99/4A+ - just means "enhanced"

99/4A+G - the 'G' would be for "graphics", or some such thing.

99/4VGA

99/418A

[+InsaneMultitasker]

Similar arguments surfaced over the years when the Geneve, 80 column cards, RAMdisks, SCSI cards, SAMS memory, and other expansion devices became reality. I suppose the PS2 / USB keyboards, CF7, nanoPEB, and others could fall in the same category.

 

I wouldn't call a TI with an 80 column card something besides a TI/99-4A. To me the F18A is no different. It maintains compatibility with its predecessor and offers some new features.

 

If Rasmus and others were creating programs that utilized the 9938- or 9958- peripheral expansion cards would this discussion thread still exist?

[+Schmitzi]

DoubleLike

 

 

 

[+jedimatt42]

Maybe this is a trivial distinction, but we aren't talking about a different kind of computer, but rather a configuration of the TI-99/4a. Having a PEB attached with an EVPC card creates the same kind of different configuration. Having 32k in the console or in a PEB or as a sidecar creates the same kind of different configuration. Having a mini-memory cartridge plugged in...

 

The thing being, any of those different configurations allow you to run software on your TI-99/4a that did not run on your TI-99/4a without that addition.

 

I really like the enhancement badges, and the software requirement badges as well.

 

I think in MESS it must have been convenient to mix selecting a different computer ( the SNUG TI compatible card console replacement ) and specific configuration (a TI-99/4a with a EVPC card) into the same classification system. I was confused that the QI version of the TI was not just a separate rom selection. But it was indeed a different model number from Texas Instruments.

 

This may be short sighted, but I don't see the internet running out of 'space' characters any time soon... So I don't see anything wrong with labelling software as 'requires F18A video enhancement' or 'requires TI-99/4a w/F18A' I really like the clarity of that.

[Tursi]

But we're talking about a home computer. The F18A can boost the console's capabilities so far that completely new applications or games become available. What is a demonstration of outstanding programming skills on the (plain) TI-99/4A may become an everyday job for the F18A.

I dunno, though, this was also true with the 9938 enhancements. New graphics modes, on-board blitter, and LOTS of additional VRAM - these things enabled applications not possible on a stock 4A, and I don't remember anyone changing the name of those machines.

 

The conversation is interesting, no doubt! But is it really the first time it has come up?

 

Edit: and InsaneMultitasker answered my question, cool

Edited January 17, 2016 by Tursi

[+Vorticon]

 

I didn't know you had experience in F18A programming. Welcome to the club.

 

I did some testing early on for Matthew before the initial release, but that's the extent of my experience with it. I was referring to the skills a few of you out there have to take full advantage of it

[Omega-TI]

With all of the people on this forum I wonder if any two machines are set up the same?

 

You've hit one one of my favorite aspects of the TI. I love to see all the different configurations of TI's out there. This system is perfectly suited for one to express their individuality. It's like you can get 10 TI'ers together, but have a dozen different configurations! The math doesn't add up, but the enjoyment sure does. COntrast that with systems like the TRS-80 Model III and they all seem rather uniform and BORING.

 

Systems change over time too. How many of you have systems that do not even resemble what they looked like only 2 or 3 years ago? I truly believe one of the reasons this forum is so popular and the TI is so exciting is because of all the talented guys that keep the TI 'fresh' with fancy new hardware and software.

 

For the most part this is a pretty people friendly place too where people help each other and we don't have constant flame wars like other places I've seen over the years.

[+mizapf]

Similar arguments surfaced over the years when the Geneve, 80 column cards, RAMdisks, SCSI cards, SAMS memory, and other expansion devices became reality.

 

Yes, and we're talking about the "Geneve", and not about an "enhanced TI-99/4A". My Geneve is a different computer than the TI-99/4A, and back in 1990, when I got it, I actually felt like becoming a Geneve user.

The other devices you mentioned are expansions of existing features that did not really change the way we worked with the TI systems. Which is, actually, a pity - think about what could have been possible. The same is true for the 80col card.

 

 

If Rasmus and others were creating programs that utilized the 9938- or 9958- peripheral expansion cards would this discussion thread still exist?

 

 

Since I brought up this question: yes. Don't understand this as a kind of complaint like "I want that too". I certainly wished to see similarly advanced in the 9938 graphics, but in this case my primary concern is more a foreboding that we're in danger to drop our good old TI-99/4A ... and we aren't even aware of that.

 

Call it "German Angst" - I can live with that.

 

Let's talk about that again in some years, and I really hope that my visions will turn out to be utterly unfounded.

[+OLD CS1]

I was of two minds on this until I started formulating my post.

 

The F18A represents an evolution in the VDP's abilities, abso-damn-lutely. But, does not a floppy drive represent an evolution in data storage from the cassette recorder? Yet a 99/4A with a floppy drive is still a 99/4A. Do we designate a 99/4A with 16-bit 32k RAM in the console a 99/32A? An Amiga 1200 with an Indivision or a PPC accelerator is still an Amiga 1200, yet both expansions are evolutions in video and processor abilities, respectively.

 

I see no reason in calling such an animal nothing more special than "99/4A w/F18A." The F18A is an enhancement to the base model. There has never been a special release of the 99/4A (other than the QI, which is an official TI design without a new commercial designation,) nor a re-release inclusive of the F18A. So, no matter what, a 99/4A with an F18A is still a 99/4A. A special moniker has the risk of a confusing, or even elitist, artificial segregation of the base computer.

 

Which is, no matter what you cram into it, no matter how advanced or awesome, a 99/4A.

[sometimes99er]

Asmusr-M has already shown what everyone thought was impossible; the 9918A *is* capable of full-screen smooth pixel scrolling.

Yes and no. Briefly forgetting about the other 9918A based systems.

 

Tursi mentioned his full-screen scrolling when I did one in 2007 (different techniques). Apart from some, more or less full-screen scrolling, for example Warzone 2, TI Invaders, Moon Patrol, Buck Rogers, Moon Mine, Frogger, Moon Sweeper and Jungle Hunt (Diving).

 

But sure, Rasmus added techniques, automated the process and brought it further. Today we know of quite a few ways to go about scrolling. I may be wrong, but I think a few chipped in a long the way with ideas and techniques from existing work.

 

[+InsaneMultitasker]

 

Yes, and we're talking about the "Geneve", and not about an "enhanced TI-99/4A". My Geneve is a different computer than the TI-99/4A, and back in 1990, when I got it, I actually felt like becoming a Geneve user.

 

I merely included the Geneve in the list as an example of hardware which over the years generated similar arguments. I agree, as would most, that a Geneve is not a TI-99/4A. Still, one would be hard-pressed to tell the difference once GPL (the program used to emulate the TI) is launched, provided the person didn't look for a cartridge port or sneak a peak inside the P-BOX.

 

 

 

The other devices you mentioned are expansions of existing features that did not really change the way we worked with the TI systems. Which is, actually, a pity - think about what could have been possible. The same is true for the 80col card.

 

Most expansion cards changed the way we work with TI systems, by definition expanding upon the base system or improving it. Cards like the SCSI and Horizon RAMdisk brought about much consternation and even prompted some, like Bruce Harrison, to leave the community. Yet those devices didn't change the basic identity.

 

I have written some routines that use the F18A feature set. I didn't feel they were any less "TI" than when I used features from other peripherals. Perhaps the difference with the F18A is that instead of placing it on an expansion card it is tucked away inside the 4A, making it more difficult to accept it as another 'expansion' to the base computer.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[kl99]

I guess the past 30 years showed to us that there are less and less Users that are limited to only having the stock console.

It's like 32k, Disk Controller and Rs232 became a standard among those enjoying that old machine.

 

I guess 80column cards weren't as successful back in the days because they were rather expensive and they started to show up after TI had stopped their production of consoles, and there was not too many programs supporting its feature.

 

What's wrong with creating software actually utilizing such hardware enhancements?

With the F18A chip Users finally have a 2nd chance to get a 80column option for their 99/4a for a very good price. And there is enough in stock to fulfill demands.

Before that there was basically the only option to get a 80column card on ebay for several hundred bucks, if one ever showed up.

 

If we look 10 years into the future we might have less and less Users without any kind of an 80column option in their TI-99 setup.

So it might be added as a very common requirement by developers.

 

I know that SMB is not done in 80col, but rather uses Hardware Scrolling and Multi color sprites. But you might got my point.

[+mizapf]

I'd like to put it in the schmitzi way: Don't get me wrong ...

 

This is taking a wrong turn here. I admit that it may be difficult to get my message, because I myself am not fully sure how to express it. This is a typical case of mixed emotions.

 

1. I am not arguing against the F18A. This is - honestly speaking - a very powerful and useful expansion. Really fascinating.

2. If I had a TI-99/4A console right now, I could well imagine to buy a F18A, at least for its VGA output. However, as I'm a Geneve user, this does not make sense, even if the F18A could additionally tidy my rooms and iron my clothes, because there's much more than just the graphics.

3. I do not argue against making use of the F18A capabilities. I wrote programs for the Geneve like Fractals which explicitly made use of the mouse, the 80col mode, the hires modes, the 9995 internal RAM. So you should not exploit the F18A to its max? How silly is that.

 

I had a look at JS99er these days and found the F18A demos. Very impressive!

 

I look at these demos, and also the Mario screens, and I'm surprised what is achievable, and at the same time I know this is not our "good old TI". Maybe our "good new TI".

 

One of the motivations to stick with the "good old TI" is to prove and witness how much more would have been possible if we had had those brilliant programmers back in time. We've just learned that some things were less impossible as we used to believe.

 

Will we still have a motivation to do that, with the new features at hand?

 

Would it be helpful to think about this as two platforms, or a "not-enhanced" and an "enhanced" platform?

 

 

My intention was just to make you think about that. Some food for thought. Denkanstoß in German. No decision required.

[+Ksarul]

I don't think it will stop people from pushing the envelope on the standard TI, Michael. If anything, I think it will push them to find even more interesting (raffinierte) tweaks. Just look at the Playground. . .or Bouncy.

[Omega-TI]

I don't think it will stop people from pushing the envelope on the standard TI, Michael. If anything, I think it will push them to find even more interesting (raffinierte) tweaks. Just look at the Playground. . .or Bouncy.

 

I agree! We have great diversity here, which I think is a great strength. In that diversity, over the past couple of months, I've seen things for TI-BASIC, Extended BASIC, Assembly and both Forth's. I've seen stuff for cassette based systems as well expanded systems.. Most of the new programs have been staying within the confines of '9918 territory', with only a very small percentage being specifically written for the F18A . I've seen people state their intentions to remain 'stock' as well. All is good, the tent is big enough for all of us and the result is more software for a wider audience.

 

While some run Geneve's and others legacy 80 column cards, both of those groups have been fortunate enough to have had enhanced software for quite some time. With the F18A, the rest of us, who were unable to obtain the rare stuff, or in some cases even afford it, are just now beginning to enjoy the luxury of some really cool stuff too.

 

Bring it ALL on!

[RXB]

How hard would it be hardware wise using modern cheap chips to make a super 9958 or Super 99310 video card with 4 meg of VDP RAM?

 

Speed is not that important as the TI is only a 3 Mhz chip, but memory and screen pixels is very much needed also more sprites would not hurt with a mouse on a separate VDP plane.

 

Right now the TI screen is 5 times less pixels then a Iphone 6 or competition. And no mouse input at all.

Edited January 18, 2016 by RXB

[Asmusr]

Yes and no. Briefly forgetting about the other 9918A based systems.

 

Tursi mentioned his full-screen scrolling when I did one in 2007 (different techniques). Apart from some, more or less full-screen scrolling, for example Warzone 2, TI Invaders, Moon Patrol, Buck Rogers, Moon Mine, Frogger, Moon Sweeper and Jungle Hunt (Diving).

 

But sure, Rasmus added techniques, automated the process and brought it further. Today we know of quite a few ways to go about scrolling. I may be wrong, but I think a few chipped in a long the way with ideas and techniques from existing work.

 

 

Yes, like most developments my scrolling techniques are building on other peoples' work. But even though I still have a few ideas left in my head, it's essential in order for this development to continue that someone else 'takes up the glove' and shows that the techniques can be improved further. If not, turning to the F18A is one way of keeping up momentum and interest, and I'm really surprised that no more the a handful developers have gone down this route considering that there is so much unexplored territory and we even have the tools (e.g Magellan). Talking about F18A as a threat to the survival of the old TI is way out of proportions IMHO considering that we don't have a single finished game yet that is running on an F18A enhanced console only. I think the general shortage of new assembly (or other high-speed language) projects is a much bigger threat.

[+mizapf]

Talking about F18A as a threat to the survival of the old TI is way out of proportions IMHO considering that we don't have a single finished game yet that is running on an F18A enhanced console only. I think the general shortage of new assembly (or other high-speed language) projects is a much bigger threat.

 

I guess you're right.