IDE Plus 2.0 - the newestl edition available very soon

[Bikerbob]

I would like to see a topic on AtariAge for those of us who are not on the edge of the development of this hardware. To compare the features of the various Carts/SD/ sio and ide interface cards etc.. even video upgrades etc.

 

I think it would be great to see what the various features are, how they compare to something else etc. Even a sticky or something so that we know what is available NOW.. where we can go to get it etc..

 

This forum go back a decade.. sometimes I start reading a thread, get to the end and realize that the item was developed and deployed 5 years ago, and most likely not available anymore, OR that it has been replaced with a better and more updated item through someone else.

 

It is fantastic and very exciting to see all this development.. its just quite a web for those of us who have not been in it for a long time

 

James

Edited April 10, 2016 by Bikerbob

[drac030]

@Metalguy: I do not even remember promising that I will code anything like that. Only that I will think about it. This feature is on my to-do list, but as long as you (or noone) pays me for full-time Atari coding, you have to wait until I find time+mood to do the thing. Of course, rude outbursts decrease the mood: and I have plenty other things to do as well (for Atari and in real life).

[Marius]

@Metalguy: I do not even remember promising that I will code anything like that. Only that I will think about it. This feature is on my to-do list, but as long as you (or noone) pays me for full-time Atari coding, you have to wait until I find time+mood to do the thing. Of course, rude outbursts decrease the mood: and I have plenty other things to do as well (for Atari and in real life).

 

As I always say: take your time, and don't feel pressed. You have done amazing stuff for IDE+ bios, and you also did me some favors for IDE+ too... So I'm a happy customer.

Since you brought up the money subject though... I'm willing to pay cash for that feature. I'm not that fortunate, but I would be so thrilled with that feature, that I am willing to pay for it.

 

If we can make some arrangement, let me know; you have my e-mail.

 

But again, no rush!

 

And to get back to my original question: is there any news about the new edition of IDE+? I am very interested in that one too!

[drac030]

ProWizard, thanks for the offer, but I have to decline. And perhaps I have not expressed it well enough, but it is not a question of money. As everyone, I have things to do for living. In the remaining time there is some window for hobbies, and inside it - for the Atari. In my Atari time I have many (already too many, I admit) projects going (and a program, once you start writing and maintaining it, usually needs maintaining and development usque ad infinitum: e.g. SysInfo, which is 24 years old already etc.). So it is really hard to keep up sometimes and this and that has to wait.

[electrotrains]

ProWizard, thanks for the offer, but I have to decline. And perhaps I have not expressed it well enough, but it is not a question of money. As everyone, I have things to do for living. In the remaining time there is some window for hobbies, and inside it - for the Atari. In my Atari time I have many (already too many, I admit) projects going (and a program, once you start writing and maintaining it, usually needs maintaining and development usque ad infinitum: e.g. SysInfo, which is 24 years old already etc.). So it is really hard to keep up sometimes and this and that has to wait.

 

How about making the firmware open source?

Since it's closed source, then everyone has to come to you with feature requests.

 

It would be good if there were a few more open-source hardware projects for the 8-bit...

[Marius]

Well open source is not a bad idea. How great would it be to see FJC's more than excellent, amazing AND magical Side Loader for IDE+ ...

 

That would make IDE+ Legendary!

[MEtalGuy66]

What I said wasn't meant to be rude at all.. And it appears that the user base echos my sentiments on the subject since they basically repeated exactly what I suggested, even after I made the "rude outbursts" in question..

 

Why on earth would you NOT do an "on the fly" menu..; The hardware is clearly there to do it.. It makes the device infinitely more useful, and like Prowizard said, it would make the IDE Plus CLEARLY the best mass storage device on the atari. Hardware-wise, I would contend that it already Is the best.

 

I understand your reluctance to release the source. I also understand that the "on the fly menu" feature in question would most likely require a ground-up rewrite of at least the menu program, if not the entire firmware. And I also do realize that you are a human being with a life and limited time to devote to hobby interests. And I'm sorry if I appeared ungrateful for what you have done so far. I should have taken better care not to be so blunt or "rude". Please accept my apology.

 

Let me ask you this: Would you be willing to collaborate on the development of an alternate firmware that employs the "on the fly menu" with the condition that nothing gets released publicly unless it meets your approval? That way you wouldn't have to release your curent (or original) source at all.. You'd just be helping (providing expertise and information) to develop an alternate firmware from the ground-up. I think there are several of us that would jump at the chance to participate.

[GoodByteXL]

... Using SDX makes an on the fly menu rather unneeded.

But Atari is more than SDX, and there are enough situations thinkable where you want to do some disk/partition/image operations without leaving the program you are currently running.

Even when using SDX such an on-the-fly menu with quick switching modes is very, very helpful. These functions were already implemented in the MSC IDE Controller, done in 1996. You can read about it in the manual.

 

Full menu:

 

small menu:

 

Especially the mounting and swapping of ATR files and apt partitions should be possible during operation.

 

It would make this hard disk interface definitely the best in the world. I hope it will be made some day. Until then, I keep enjoying my IDE+ 2.0 ... it's still a very fine device.

It is already the best hard disk interface available for A8, but it could be more convenient in usage.

[+tf_hh]

ProWizard, thanks for the offer, but I have to decline. And perhaps I have not expressed it well enough, but it is not a question of money. As everyone, I have things to do for living. In the remaining time there is some window for hobbies, and inside it - for the Atari. In my Atari time I have many (already too many, I admit) projects going (and a program, once you start writing and maintaining it, usually needs maintaining and development usque ad infinitum: e.g. SysInfo, which is 24 years old already etc.). So it is really hard to keep up sometimes and this and that has to wait.

 

Fully agree with that. And, some people forgets the most important thing: make a circuit and make new hardware is one thing - with some experience and some good tools it´s not the hardest part. But writing software (or firmware) and make it USABLE for ALL kind of users (knowledge of them) - that´s the challenge.

 

Without knowing it really (and it´s not mean as a vilification), I think, Jon has spent more hours of development in the U1MB new bios than Sebastian in the whole development of the board. Or - where I know it, because I was beta-tester of the team - the Turbo Freezer 2011, Hias rewrites the code completely, the TF2011 is a complete new thing. The hardware (PCB and so on) was made in a few days (1st prototype).

 

So I can please everyone to be patient with all developers. It´s hobby, the most of us have a family and a real life

 

Just my 2 cents... Jurgen

 

 

 

[Marius]

 

Fully agree with that. And, some people forgets the most important thing: make a circuit and make new hardware is one thing - with some experience and some good tools it´s not the hardest part. But writing software (or firmware) and make it USABLE for ALL kind of users (knowledge of them) - that´s the challenge.

 

Without knowing it really (and it´s not mean as a vilification), I think, Jon has spent more hours of development in the U1MB new bios than Sebastian in the whole development of the board. Or - where I know it, because I was beta-tester of the team - the Turbo Freezer 2011, Hias rewrites the code completely, the TF2011 is a complete new thing. The hardware (PCB and so on) was made in a few days (1st prototype).

 

So I can please everyone to be patient with all developers. It´s hobby, the most of us have a family and a real life

 

Just my 2 cents... Jurgen

 

You are absolutely right. But one of the stronger parts of this new BIOS development on U1MB is just the fact that someone that is not involved in the hardware project is writing this new Bios. I think FJC is the first person to ask to write a new BIOS for IDE+ ... this guy is a true wizard and I know nobody like him. He would be most certainly able to lift the IDE+ to a higher level.

 

Don't get me wrong. The IDE+ is my first choice HD interface (in the past it was MyIDE 2, but Konrad did some excellent improvements on the BIOS, so IDE+ is already my #1 HD interface).

 

But this could mean a win-win situation. Konrad and other people involved in IDE+ can concentrate on their other projects. IDE+ will develop further, improve, and people would probably buy more IDE+, it's good the a8 community, and it is good for FJC.

 

I don't mean this to push; like I wrote before to Konrad, there is no rush... and I'll leave this further to him; but I seriously think we have GOLD in our hands with IDE+ and it's rather clear to me that there is a lot of potential in this HD interface, that has to be unleashed.

[lemiel]

FJC same as Draco cannot write everything we want. And did you ask Jon if he want to do this?

Free time and compatible mood are the most important things.

[GoodByteXL]

So I can please everyone to be patient with all developers. It´s hobby, the most of us have a family and a real life

I don't mean this to push; ... that there is a lot of potential in this HD interface, that has to be unleashed.

It's neither about being "impatient" here nor any "pushing", it is about discussing ideas.

 

So even if MetalGuy66 is very straight forward he is absolutely right in my view. I remember he insisted on a XL compatibility back then for the IDE+, making the many XL users happy. And here we are again, talking about the software for it.

 

And yes, we will wait and see and discuss.

[MEtalGuy66]

These functions were already implemented in the MSC IDE Controller, done in 1996. You can read about it in the manual.

Nope.. Im afraid not.. Not even close..

 

From MSC_IDE ENGLISH MANUAL:

 

Permanent Installation

The program MAP.COM may be installed with SETUP in the SYSTEM area of

the hard disk. It is then available at any time even without DOS, and can be

called by [RESET]+[HELP]. If there is no memory extension available, the

data from $4000 to $7FFF will be overwritten.

 

LMAP.OBJ

This program is intended for all those who do not have a memory extension.

Thus, the individual drives and partitions can be exchanged.

 

© 1996 msc SWAP D3 with D?

D1 D2 D3 D4 D5 D6 D7 D8 D9

00 F1 23 F4 F5 F6 01 F8 F9

 

Just put in the numbers of drives to swap (e.g. 3, then 6, to exchange the

partition of drive D3: with the one of D6:). Exit the program with [RETURN].

It is intended only for permanent installation in the SYSTEM area of the disk

and can not run as standalone.

When installed, it may be called by [RESET]+[M].

On the CSS Black Box (And the way Prowizard and I are advocating for the IDE Plus 2.0 "on the fly menu",) The Menu comes up at the press of a discrete button on the device which removes the need to press RESET and allows the firmware to cleanly copy the zero page, the Display list, the screen memory, and all of the current contents of the memory that that menu program will occupy, temporarily into SRAM on the black box.. It then executes the menu program and when the user finally exits, it copies all of the aforementioned data back into place and allows the system to seamlessly continue exactly where it was when the button was pressed. This is a MUCH, MUCH slicker operation than what the MSC_IDE is accomplishing when you press help-reset or M-reset. Using the Black Box's Truly "On-the-Fly" menu, you can for instance swap disk partitions during a game like Alternate Reality and then seamlessly return to the game without disturbing anything..

 

Truthfully, the closest other device you can equate functionality such as this with would be the Turbo/Freezer.

Edited April 11, 2016 by MEtalGuy66

[Marius]

FJC same as Draco cannot write everything we want. And did you ask Jon if he want to do this?

Free time and compatible mood are the most important things.

 

Actually I did; Jon is one of my closest friends (also besides the Atari world) and although I'm not going to speak for him, I'm pretty sure he would love to cooperate.

[Marius]

Listen people!

 

The current BIOS of IDE+ is fabulous; IDE+ is currently my most favorite HD interface. I'm more than happy with it, and as I wrote before Konrad did amazing work for the device, and for me personal.

 

I'm not in a hurry, and I'm more than satisfied by the current device.

 

I simply wanted to know when the new edition (what this thread is about) will see day of light. I'm very interested in that new edition. Those non-mechanical ON/OFF switches look very cool, and the fact that I can put a case on that new one is very tempting.

 

Besides all this, it is always good to have something to wish for; and that is what I'm expressing here.

 

I find it very important that Konrad, or simius, or who is involved further, knows that I appreciate their work A LOT!

[GoodByteXL]

Nope.. Im afraid not.. Not even close..

 

You picked the description for the shortcut menu, not the long menu which also allowed to flip images to drive numbers while working, not only flip drive numbers. It may not be that advanced like other stuff back then, but having an on the fly selection from 240 partitions to select into 9 active drives while working is far more than other true PBI hardware offers nowadays. So at least these "simple options" would relieve the user from terminating what he's already doing, calling FDISK of either make and shuffle around the settings and then reboot and start again with what you were at. It wasn't necessary with the MSC back then. At least it would be a point to start with. No fancy graphical stuff, but convenient, simple functions.

[MEtalGuy66]

You miss my point.. The fact that you have to press RESET is no good for a truly "seamless" entry/exit.. And additionally, the MSC-IDE does not preserve the contents of 1)zero page 2)screen mem 3)display list 4)program execution space in SRAM on the device and then restore it on menu exit..

 

This is what could easily be done on the IDE plus 2.0, since it has a discretely adressable hard button and ample onboard SRAM..

 

And I believe I posted the description for both menus.. The "long" menu is RESET-HELP, and the "short" one is RESET-M, as it clearly states in the exerpt I quoted. Niether of them can effect a "seamless on-the-fly" entry/exit like the functionality of the Black Box.

Edited April 11, 2016 by MEtalGuy66

[GoodByteXL]

You miss my point..

Not really - we are talking apart. In a first step I'd like to see a more versatile management for the partitions/images/drives. The current situation with setup and management is a cruel way to do. And I gave an example from 20 years ago. That's all. I am not asking for all the bells and whistles features.

 

If it can be better, fine. But there is no hard button on the earlier revisions of the IDE+.

[MEtalGuy66]

Yes, but you entered into a conversation in which Prowizard (and myself) had brought up the desire (which had been mentioned before) of a Black box style "seamless on-the fly" menu.

 

I agree with you that any firmware provision for an instant launch partition/drive manager would be better than the current "blind swap button" or lack of anything... But why not do it in the best possible manner in which it can be achieved? The hardware is there. I say use it..

 

Noone who has ever used a black box will dispute that it is the unquestionable KING of Atari hardisk interfaces.. The reasons it cannot today be called the BEST today are that 1) It's firmware is obsolete/deprecated and there is no available source. 2)It is no longer being made and thus unavailable (unless someone sells their personal unit.)

 

But anyone who has ever used one KNOWS that no other device comes close to the level of functionality it gives and the superb way that it operates. it would be DAMN NICE to be able to say that about the IDE Plus 2.0.. And its within reach.. all we need is the firmware to make it happen.

`

Edited April 11, 2016 by MEtalGuy66

[GoodByteXL]

Yes, but you entered into a conversation in which Prowizard (and myself) had brought up the desire (which had been mentioned before) of a Black box style "seamless on-the fly" menu.

True, and I ask you to accept my apologies for addressing something very basic, which the IDE+ is simply lacking on the software side.

[Marius]

Some 'theoretical' insight in why this on the fly button is needed:

 

 

When atari 8bit was released, there was not directly a HardDisk solution available. One could use tape or disk for personal storage. Both datarecorder, and diskdrive have the facility of changing media during operation of a program. If you are coding in Basic or Assembler, and you want to save your program on another disk or tape, simply eject the current disk/tape and insert a fresh one. Perhaps your current disk/tape was full, so you had to change disks. Perhaps you were not coding, but drawing on AtariArtist, or writing a novel in Atari Writer... there are always situations thinkable where you needed a fresh or another disk/tape. So the device let you change the storage medium while you did not have to exit your program; you even't hadn't to press reset.

 

There were also disks available where you had to flip the disk, or change to another disk during the game (Summergames, Alternate Reality, The Brundles and much more)

 

Now back to HardDisk interface.

Of course in a PC/Mac you also do not tinker with the partitions all the time, and yes you could now decide to save your data to one big partition on so the need of switching to different disks is no longer there anymore. But then you run into programs that do not want to run in this setup (like syncalc) or you do not want to save on a huge partition since you are coder (like me) and you do not want to risk data loss of an entire huge partition while you are doing experiments with I/O routines (and I'm speaking from experience, I have 'killed' a lot of large partitions before I decided not to do any coding ever again while a huge partition is available... every new project starts with a new disk)

 

Being able to create new partitions, (un)mount partitions and swap partitions on the fly is needed to come as close as possible to the original a8 use as it was before HD's were invented.

 

I can live without it, and for most cases I have workarounds, so even without this feature the IDE+ is an amazing HD interface, which I prefer over blackbox or MyIDE 2 (both have the on-the-fly menu feature). But I keep having hope that one day IDE+ will have the on-the-fly menu.

 

Last note:

The BlackBox would still be my number one HD interface if it wasn't so huge and if it would support the APT partition scheme. Portability between SIDE, MyIDE (SDX only) and IDE+ is amazing today with apt partitions.

[MEtalGuy66]

MyIDE2 does not provide quite the same level of "seamlessness" as the blackbox menu does, and its not a PBI interface, so compatability/operability (of said feature)in various scenarios is questionable.

 

But Yeah.. GOOD POINT.. If a half-assed wanna-be interface like MyIDE2 can do it.. The premiere currently available PBI mass storage interface for the ATARI platform (Ide plus 2.0) Can not??!?!?

 

The SHAME.....

 

The BLASPHEMY.....

 

heheh..

Edited April 12, 2016 by MEtalGuy66

[drac030]

Well, guys, physically nothing prevents anyone from flashing into the IDE+ whatever fits, because the IDE+ ROM is a flash ROM.

 

I am however not disclosing the source code for the firmware, so writing all that from scratch would probably take some time. I am myself, as I wrote above, rather busy with other stuff. And, to be honest, I am not so fond of that menu thing either. Perhaps because I use the HDD as a HDD, and make backups once a month, so even if I trashed my harddisk by accident, there would be no disaster (it has never happened so far, eventhough I am a coder, I code on my Atari a lot, and I keep all my sources on one 32 MB partition, where only 2 MB is left).

 

So, perhaps, the easiest solution is this: someone, who knows how the menu should work, codes it up, then I will integrate this program into the IDE+ ROM. The author of course gets credited as the co-author of the firmware in a visible place on the setup screen.

[Marius]

That is great news Konrad!

 

And about the coding thing... you are probably a way better coder than me lol! When I start fooling around with I/O routines, there is always something that goes terribly wrong lol.

 

But great news about that 2nd coder!

[drac030]

Hm, perhaps I have misformulated this. I do not know such a coder, I thought that you, guys, already have a candidate, like FJC, who, as ProWizard puts it, would love to cooperate. So I should have said: IF someone, who knows how the menu should work, codes it up, then etc.