pixelmischief Posted March 8, 2016 Share Posted March 8, 2016 (edited) Just my 2 cents on Prince of Persia. There is more than enough there visually that, if the control mechanics were smooth and the level designs challenging, you'd have one of the best games we've seen in a long time. Edited March 8, 2016 by pixelmischief 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mclaneinc Posted March 8, 2016 Share Posted March 8, 2016 Totally agree, its good old school playability...Done right and its a blast... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted March 8, 2016 Share Posted March 8, 2016 Ambivalent alert If there is some spare time in the future we could talk about the difference between "4 colour animate softwaresprites screen " and some C64 like screen. Agreed on need to get something more colorful going on on Atari. It's about time someone makes 4 color softsprites with PM enhanced colors to show what Atari really can do... Wish I could see what's in all those folders named retro-dev on laptops of chosen few who have time and will to code... Hmmm... "I've seen things you people wouldn't believe..." comes to mind Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted March 8, 2016 Share Posted March 8, 2016 Agreed on need to get something more colorful going on on Atari. It's about time someone makes 4 color softsprites with PM enhanced colors to show what Atari really can do... Wish I could see what's in all those folders named retro-dev on laptops of chosen few who have time and will to code... Hmmm... "I've seen things you people wouldn't believe..." comes to mind Well, 3D stuff, the A8 still has to offer much, as you can use lower resolutions, lower cycle stealing by DMA ... and so on. But, if people decide to use a singel scanline charmode, it is not possible to do anything "c64 like" . 4 colour elements get out of reach, if you want to have the game really colourful and fluent. The hardware offer 3 colour objects with limitations... particular PoP could look like the Apple 2 version without artifacting. But any "C64" style is out of reach. Remember Karateka! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analmux Posted March 8, 2016 Share Posted March 8, 2016 But, if people decide to use a singel scanline charmode, it is not possible to do anything "c64 like" . I'm not sure yet. There's still a 'secret weapon'. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted March 9, 2016 Share Posted March 9, 2016 I'm not sure yet. There's still a 'secret weapon'. Wish I could see your dev folder Bet some secret weapons are in there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mclaneinc Posted March 9, 2016 Share Posted March 9, 2016 This is bordering on data porn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted March 9, 2016 Share Posted March 9, 2016 I'm not sure yet. There's still a 'secret weapon'. Someone found the forgotton switch in the XL's chipset? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted March 9, 2016 Share Posted March 9, 2016 Imho main focus should be on the question of this topic - Why so many unfinished projects ? Any kind of code complexity (like pm overlays, dynamic color changes etc) increases time and effort needed to finish game. That is why I think best chances we have is with 'standard screen modes'. One thing that we need for dynamic games is speed. I agree with Emkay that double scanline modes are Ataris strong point so we should probably use it. Don't see the reason why something like Gameboy, 4 shades like game shouldn't be possible on A8 ? Plenty of good examples on more than one GBA Jams over at gamejolt: http://jams.gamejolt.io/gbjam3/games Maybe not so fast, maybe not so many sprites but still, a nice, good games can be made. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sack-c0s Posted March 14, 2016 Share Posted March 14, 2016 (edited) How about a thread: " What the Atari could easily do, and what not " , to have coders given some advice where to start from, if they don't know about the possibilities? So people could easier check their ideas if their project will work or not? For example: Space Harrier solved the CPU problem, using the double scanline mode. No chance to get anywhere close with single scanline modes. Maybe 'graded' categories would be good. for example 'Does this easily', 'needs some simple but often-used tricks', 'someone has a theory on this, but it seems difficult' and 'theoretically possible, but unproven. Try this if you consider yourself a 6502 ninja'. The person reading it could be a general newbie, or maybe a C64 coder looking to branch out so whilst they're unfamilar with the specifics it doesn't rule out them trying something a bit more advanced to push the envelope a bit. also a project handover exchange might be good, so when life hits someone and they don't have the time they can pass it to someone who they think can drive the project on for shared credit? Even if they haven't run out of time, if it feels like a grind they could outright swap with someone for another project if the finished/unfinished parts match their strengths? Edited March 14, 2016 by sack-c0s 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+CharlieChaplin Posted March 14, 2016 Share Posted March 14, 2016 (edited) Don't see the reason why something like Gameboy, 4 shades like game shouldn't be possible on A8 ? Hmmm, alas, it looks like many people don`t like games with only four (grey) shades, e.g. regarding "Deimos" you often read: a) the main figure is stolen from Cavernia (thumb down) - still it shows, that Cavernia`s main figure is well animated b) the game is "just" a Montezuma`s Revenge clone (thumb down) - still it shows that Montezuma is a good game c) the game has only shades of grey [and there are less than 50 shades of grey!] (thumb down) - still it shows, that shades of one colour can look good (and in my opinion, castles are often made of stone and thus look stone-grey, e.g. look at Carcasonne: https://www.google.de/search?q=Carcassonne&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjcgpj2tcDLAhWsCJoKHUQMBykQ_AUICCgC&biw=1024&bih=593) The game: http://www.atarimania.com/game-atari-400-800-xl-xe-deimos_1570.html You may get good critics when converting an old gameboy game to the A8, that did not have colours. But if you convert a game with colours from any other computer or console to the A8 and the A8 version has only shades of one colour, you will always be critisized that it lacks colours... Edited March 14, 2016 by CharlieChaplin 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted March 14, 2016 Share Posted March 14, 2016 Hmmm, alas, it looks like many people don`t like games with only four (grey) shades, e.g. If you allow to have lower resolutions, you can add colours much easier. Sneaking towards "Strictly Gone Bananas" , you see the even lower 4x4 mode , but people like the game due to the fluent animations and many colours on the screen. People get the imagination of their "heroes" fast. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted March 14, 2016 Share Posted March 14, 2016 While creating Arsantica 3 and having discussions with c64 pro coders even c64 and a8 share some similarities but both machines are too different when it turns to pro coders... And not talking about sprites here... But VIC banks plus 256 chars vs 128 chars.... Scrolling in high res vs low res.... Color ram... DMA consumption (on a8 not good using font mode due to bad lines compared to gr. 15 or gr. 7) etc etc... But what impresses most c64 coders is the raw speed gain when using linear bitmap mode compared to c64 modes even software modes.... Just my experience... So Popmilo's way of his game maker is the way to go imho.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted March 14, 2016 Share Posted March 14, 2016 So... For game coders I would vote of using gr. 7 first and not trying soft sprites with chars etc.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted March 14, 2016 Share Posted March 14, 2016 (edited) Just last 2cents.... Use 9 color mode even res is lower but it seems that human eye likes colors more than resolution... And it's one of the least used modes.... think of Koronis Rift... And don't dream of Edited March 14, 2016 by Heaven/TQA 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted March 14, 2016 Share Posted March 14, 2016 alas, it looks like many people don`t like games with only four (grey) shades, e.g. regarding "Deimos" you often read... ... You may get good critics when converting an old gameboy game to the A8, that did not have colours... Even though it's not a bad game at all, my thoughts on Deimos are that it represents 'worse' choice: - In order to get vertical resolution - it became twice slower. - Making main sprite different colors makes background look even blander than it is on it's own. - Focus is on background tile animation, that's lot of 'static' changing objects - instead of many moving objects. Take a look at this screenshot. It has only 4 colors. You can clearly distinguish background from foreground and main character. Sprites are large and have clear edge in contrast colors. This doesn't look well with 2x1 resolution and 8x16 large sprites. Someone has to make game like this ! Large sprites are not impossible if you use double-scanline modes. I know this is an old one and 100% representative of what would be possible in a game but it's a good show of how it could look on A8. Imho nobody would dismiss it just because it doesn't have green and blue and purple on the screen at the same time.. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted March 14, 2016 Share Posted March 14, 2016 Just last 2cents.... Use 9 color mode even res is lower but it seems that human eye likes colors more than resolution... And it's one of the least used modes.... think of Koronis Rift... And don't dream of Nooooo ! Don't ruin our dreams ! It has to be possible to make something similar one day... It just has to.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted March 14, 2016 Share Posted March 14, 2016 Maybe 'graded' categories would be good... ... also a project handover exchange might be good, so when life hits someone and they don't have the time they can pass it to someone who they think can drive the project on for shared credit? Even if they haven't run out of time, if it feels like a grind they could outright swap with someone for another project if the finished/unfinished parts match their strengths? Categories sound like a good idea. Handing over your "baby" was always tough for me No matter how rational idea of collaboration sounds it's always a fight with lower-urges when sharing time comes. Maybe it's just me but I think all would be better off if we learned to share early. With demo coding it's easier. I do the "interesting, hard to do, never tried before" thing and once it works I'm eager to share it with someone who adds music, links it with loaders and decompressors and publishes it... Games are a different beasts.... You feel a need to keep control of creative process all to the end... But hey! Maybe I just didn't share it with right people ? ps. That's why I planed to make game creator open source from the start... That is - as soon as there is something more than a sprite demo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
playsoft Posted March 14, 2016 Share Posted March 14, 2016 Imho main focus should be on the question of this topic - Why so many unfinished projects ? Any kind of code complexity (like pm overlays, dynamic color changes etc) increases time and effort needed to finish game. That is why I think best chances we have is with 'standard screen modes'. One thing that we need for dynamic games is speed. I agree with Emkay that double scanline modes are Ataris strong point so we should probably use it. Don't see the reason why something like Gameboy, 4 shades like game shouldn't be possible on A8 ? Plenty of good examples on more than one GBA Jams over at gamejolt: http://jams.gamejolt.io/gbjam3/games Maybe not so fast, maybe not so many sprites but still, a nice, good games can be made. I think there is a lot of potential in GBA style graphics and like you say, not every game needs lots of sprites. I appreciate there will be a lot of people that don't like grey graphics on an A8, but I think the most important thing with getting a game finished is it being something you want to do and find interesting to work on. I tried out the GBA Zelda graphics and I thought they looked great (alternated between modes D and E to stretch them out). I'll never find the time for such a project, but if I did I'd keep it grey and use colour from the PM graphics for Sin City style effects. If you allow to have lower resolutions, you can add colours much easier. Sneaking towards "Strictly Gone Bananas" , you see the even lower 4x4 mode , but people like the game due to the fluent animations and many colours on the screen. People get the imagination of their "heroes" fast. With that imagination GBA graphics have green leaves, brown paths, blue sea... zelda.xex 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analmux Posted March 14, 2016 Share Posted March 14, 2016 Looks great! By the way, if someone would like to enhance it, an 8-way scrolling is easy for the A8. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinroh Posted March 15, 2016 Share Posted March 15, 2016 Wow nice, that little Zelda demo is slammin'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted March 15, 2016 Share Posted March 15, 2016 With that imagination GBA graphics have green leaves, brown paths, blue sea... As we are not limited with original GBA lcd screen we can use any 4 out of many Atari colors Adding Red, Green and purple colors in combination with darker and lighter shades of grey (black and white) makes objects much more visible. If this continues topic will turn into Gbjam gallery Point is - maybe it's better to focus on simple graphics and good gameplay. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted March 15, 2016 Share Posted March 15, 2016 I think there is a lot of potential in GBA style graphics and like you say, not every game needs lots of sprites. I appreciate there will be a lot of people that don't like grey graphics on an A8, but I think the most important thing with getting a game finished is it being something you want to do and find interesting to work on. I tried out the GBA Zelda graphics and I thought they looked great (alternated between modes D and E to stretch them out). I'll never find the time for such a project, but if I did I'd keep it grey and use colour from the PM graphics for Sin City style effects. With that imagination GBA graphics have green leaves, brown paths, blue sea... cool stuff.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Stephen Posted March 15, 2016 Share Posted March 15, 2016 As we are not limited with original GBA lcd screen we can use any 4 out of many Atari colors Adding Red, Green and purple colors in combination with darker and lighter shades of grey (black and white) makes objects much more visible. I assume then that these titles would use bitmap mode? Would it be possible to use char-mode to get a 5th colour? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analmux Posted March 15, 2016 Share Posted March 15, 2016 Yes, I think using the charmode graphics 13 setting (ANTIC 5) is excellent. But emkay said that the bitmap mode is better ... just kidding. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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