emkay Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 I did think about it ... PMs are rather limited (40 pixels wide, one color each...). My opinion is that they would be better used for Player sprite, bullets or coloring objects as underlay-overlay (maybe even prior 0). If you go a step further, you could do the "lineup" with PMs and use the 5th colour of the charmode for switching between moving from "sky" and "earth background, without any clash. Saving some chars for some background details is also possible... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 If you go a step further, you could do the "lineup" with PMs and use the 5th colour of the charmode for switching between moving from "sky" and "earth background, without any clash. Saving some chars for some background details is also possible... What's "lineup" with PMs ? Agreed on use of 5th color for sky and ground... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 What's "lineup" with PMs ? Agreed on use of 5th color for sky and ground... Simple mockup You see the character borders using blue and brown by the inversion of the Charset. The "pink tree hero" could be set to all regions of the screen, without taking care of the background, just the inversion has to be adjusted. The yellow and darker blue pixels were done using Players. Ofcourse the picture could get much more complex, as you could still add some PM to enhance the colours of the "hero". It's just a mockup with one charset and no DLI used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 If you want to play around The screen uses 64 chars this time. In theory you could make a game in basic, using charmode movement. Ranges, where you usually won't move could be arranged graphically with more details. Character Rotations still possible. What could a special "development" reach there in a Machine Language game? Additional Overlays .... charset animations.... more PMg with multiplexing... Some borders could be adjusted with PM repositioning, which wouldn't take too much CPU time... and so on. no_name.zip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 Ok. I get now what you were saying about sky and earth colors... Combined with dli changes you get 5 colors per region which can be enough with nice art... Have to look out for a pixel artist who has lots of spare time 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetboot Jack Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 Atari Software sprites in a late 80's stylee... Not the latest version, that had a parallax background, but good enough to show the principle for a shooter... sTeVE 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 Atari Software sprites in a late 80's stylee... Not the latest version, that had a parallax background, but good enough to show the principle for a shooter... From one of the authors (from Atarimania description): "One of the authors (Stephen Goss) comments on the project: 'This game was under development for Harlequin, based upon the Amiga original. It was not finished when the company closed, unfortunately the programmer became seriously ill and was unable to complete the project. It used a very clever software sprite system that was in a character mapped graphics mode. This created both parallax scrolling and many on screen independent moving objects (enemies).' Think I've even seen source code somewhere or somebody disassembled it and found out how it worked. Nothing ground breaking but very nice as a whole. Char mode gives that option to do parallax scroll cheaply. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 Atari Software sprites in a late 80's stylee... Not the latest version, that had a parallax background, but good enough to show the principle for a shooter... sTeVE It is indeed a very nice development. But there is so much missing. Compare it to Atari Blast. What ist the exact framerate in the Menace demo? Gameplay is depending on the visual graphics and the fluent presentation. Where 50Hz is needed for a clean 320 Pixel scrolling, 25 fps is similar , when using 160 pixel scrolling... and so on. "Zybex" has at least the perfect mix of resolution (Gr. 7) and fluent gameplay. But, games that "do a dot and move a dot" are as much fun as watching a stone laying on the ground. And this is not my opinion, it is what gamers expect(ed). "Strictly Gone Bananas" uses gr. 10 resolution with square pixels and real fluent animations that compensate the low resolution look and give even more fun, while watching due to the animations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 Pop... Jetbook was one of the coder... I got the source... it was M/65... it learned me to reserve chars for sprites and rest for background... and like you separate the data from the "char slots"... means... fex. chars:ADGBEHCFI are resevered for enemy #1... and not sure if data was preshifted but it worked nicely... so 8 enemy sprites = 72 chars... rest for background... shots were chars, too... player was PM. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 Ok. I get now what you were saying about sky and earth colors... Combined with dli changes you get 5 colors per region which can be enough with nice art... Have to look out for a pixel artist who has lots of spare time Have gout got the part with "lineup" ? Using Multiplexe PMg for the backround could reduce the overall screen to one charset. Changing some character content in DLIs would be enough, to have different objects over the screen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 Pop... Jetbook was one of the coder... I got the source... it was M/65... it learned me to reserve chars for sprites and rest for background... and like you separate the data from the "char slots"... means... fex. chars: LoL So you were the one who showed me the source @Jetboot Jack: Nice code Are you then the one they mentioned as "programmer got ill" ? Were you involved in other projects ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 Have gout got the part with "lineup" ? Think I did Putting PM on edge between sky and ground to make transition nicer ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
José Pereira Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 Have to look out for a pixel artist who has lots of spare time Who is the pixel artist? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 Think I did Putting PM on edge between sky and ground to make transition nicer ? Not just the transitions. The screen can be enhanced with details at a higher resolution than "40x25" The characters also could be used both ways : Using clusters with content changing for a softwaresprite, and to use the characters directly for moving the graphics around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetboot Jack Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 (edited) LoL So you were the one who showed me the source @Jetboot Jack: Nice code Are you then the one they mentioned as "programmer got ill" ? Were you involved in other projects ? No I was behind Harlequin, I did some coding, mostly graphics & design and also "got the deals" with the licence holders (so did the business) :-) I took Contagion to Psygnosis to get the licence for Beast and Menace... There were many Halrequin projects on A8, ST and then I have been making games ever since :-) I am currently Director of Design at Supermassive Games sTeVE Edited January 11, 2017 by Jetboot Jack 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetboot Jack Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 It is indeed a very nice development. But there is so much missing. Compare it to Atari Blast. What ist the exact framerate in the Menace demo? Gameplay is depending on the visual graphics and the fluent presentation. Where 50Hz is needed for a clean 320 Pixel scrolling, 25 fps is similar , when using 160 pixel scrolling... and so on. "Zybex" has at least the perfect mix of resolution (Gr. 7) and fluent gameplay. But, games that "do a dot and move a dot" are as much fun as watching a stone laying on the ground. And this is not my opinion, it is what gamers expect(ed). "Strictly Gone Bananas" uses gr. 10 resolution with square pixels and real fluent animations that compensate the low resolution look and give even more fun, while watching due to the animations. Just remember we actually made this in 1989 or so rather than 2016! Menace without parallax ran at 25fps in Antic 4 and over 30fps in Antic 5 - 8 independent software sprites (albeit they had ONE definition for all 8 in a wave)... sTeVE 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 It is indeed a very nice development. But there is so much missing. Compare it to Atari Blast. What ist the exact framerate in the Menace demo? Gameplay is depending on the visual graphics and the fluent presentation. Where 50Hz is needed for a clean 320 Pixel scrolling, 25 fps is similar , when using 160 pixel scrolling... and so on. "Zybex" has at least the perfect mix of resolution (Gr. 7) and fluent gameplay. But, games that "do a dot and move a dot" are as much fun as watching a stone laying on the ground. And this is not my opinion, it is what gamers expect(ed). "Strictly Gone Bananas" uses gr. 10 resolution with square pixels and real fluent animations that compensate the low resolution look and give even more fun, while watching due to the animations. we should remove a myth on A8... with hardware you can not do 320 pixel scrolling... (= 320x res) like on c64... ANTIC is limited to "color clocks" so we always scroll in 2:1 pixel steps... sad but true... its "fluent" because of 50/60 FPS.... that's why all new scrollers of mine use 320x res scrolling which is combination of software and hardware... (Arsantica 3 Oxyron hidden screen + Camelight 2k17) 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 we should remove a myth on A8... with hardware you can not do 320 pixel scrolling... (= 320x res) like on c64... ANTIC is limited to "color clocks" so we always scroll in 2:1 pixel steps... sad but true... its "fluent" because of 50/60 FPS.... that's why all new scrollers of mine use 320x res scrolling which is combination of software and hardware... (Arsantica 3 Oxyron hidden screen + Camelight 2k17) So in particular, 320 pixel hardwarescrolling is possible But, if you use 160 pixel modes, you only need 25 fps to have the same timing. The problem starts when you also move or scroll vertically. there , you could use 50 fps . The HW-Sprites move free over the scrolling screen, alike 50Hz or 25 Hz , horizontal or vertically. For now I know only one game that has that on the A8: Atari Blast. All other games , have that "do a dot move a dot " thingy, more or less. In some games it fits, but in action games it kills a lot of fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 (edited) Just remember we actually made this in 1989 or so rather than 2016! Menace without parallax ran at 25fps in Antic 4 and over 30fps in Antic 5 - 8 independent software sprites (albeit they had ONE definition for all 8 in a wave)... sTeVE That wouldn't change things. It would be much easier to create such demo today, for sure. But, referring to the title of the topic, it will never turn into the full game, that way. No sound, no music, still a lot of objects missing. Zybex shows the way to create such ports for the A8 : Gr. 7 . But then, we will discuss , whether Gr. 7 is a too low resolution. And, we know, Zybex was a fast project, the A8 has "air" to pull more out of the hat. With that more in CPU power left, more PMg could be added... but gr. 7 is too low, so let's still do circles in the discussion and let the projects still be unfinished. Edited January 11, 2017 by emkay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteym5 Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 OUTRUN I was aware of the production of Outrun and the programmer got very far with setting up the screen, sprites, and animation. KJMANN12 did the music and sound. The programmer got busy with working and had problems completing the game. KJMANN12 had some health issues and could not handle the stress with dealing with people on here on AtariAge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 OUTRUN I was aware of the production of Outrun and the programmer got very far with setting up the screen, sprites, and animation. KJMANN12 did the music and sound. The programmer got busy with working and had problems completing the game. KJMANN12 had some health issues and could not handle the stress with dealing with people on here on AtariAge. Please don't do that. Talking about KJMANN12 isn't fair, as some real words about his behavior seem to affect people thinking about dissing someone. But he really has problems by himself, people should have a look behind the scenes. No need to pull Atariage members there. And, similar to other projects: That OutRun version never will be finished, because the Atari doesn't have VICII Sprites. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteym5 Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 Please don't do that. Talking about KJMANN12 isn't fair, as some real words about his behavior seem to affect people thinking about dissing someone. But he really has problems by himself, people should have a look behind the scenes. No need to pull Atariage members there. And, similar to other projects: That OutRun version never will be finished, because the Atari doesn't have VICII Sprites. It was not you EMKAY he had problems with. I personally liked the music you can make. It was that whole battle on the Venture thread over 'pay per download' that put some stress all of us that worked on the game. "VICII" sprites? I looked at some of the Arcade ports the people are trying to do on the Atari, and say there are probably some sacrifices because of limitations to onscreen colors and sprites. I would had done the game with just player/missile graphics and multiplexing. The other option would port the game to use VBXE sprites. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteym5 Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 (edited) Oh VIC II, Commodore 64. You know I can get close to Commodore 64 sprites with overlaying 2 missiles + 2 sprites for third color and multiplexing and did some experiments to try to speed up the processing. Edited January 11, 2017 by peteym5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 Oh VIC II, Commodore 64. You know I can get close to Commodore 64 sprites with overlaying 2 missiles + 2 sprites for third color and multiplexing and did some experiments to try to speed up the processing. Ofcourse , you can. But, you get troubles doing that after using most CPU for the street-projection. If you use the A8 hardware, as it had more to offer, you'd start creating the street with PM Graphics. It offers the needed width and just some pokes set a street to the middle of the screen. Then you could use all available chars, and move them in char resolution. And, if there were cpu time left, after the main game is running, the coder could add some nice details. The "hardest part" would be to place the DLI code to the correct DL line(s). The sharper the curve, the more dense the code for PM repositioning has to be. Longer distances need just 1 DLI ever 2, 3 or 4 Charactermode-lines. For the "line movement" to have a speed impression, the missile could be used, with shifted graphics, and to rotate them. and so on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 Just remember we actually made this in 1989 or so rather than 2016! Menace without parallax ran at 25fps in Antic 4 and over 30fps in Antic 5 - 8 independent software sprites (albeit they had ONE definition for all 8 in a wave)... sTeVE Steve... did I miss the parallax somewhere? ;=) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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