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Jaguar FMV inquiry


BladeJunker
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Hello :waving:I am looking for information on Jaguar FMV. I did try the Search function but the subject is kind of mired in this VS that debates so it's hard to sift through. Please answer anything you can or wish to address. :)


It's tricky to find good quality YT videos about it as the default RF outputs poorly and a lot people just film their televisions, not complaining since I do the same thing to capture clips of the games I collect but having trouble finding some sharper quality captures to analize. I think Game Sack was the sharpest most full screen Jaguar footage I could find but they didn't cover any FMV titles.


I hear that Catbox is pretty good, any YT channels with users that have that device for output recordings of gameplay onto a DVR or similar device? It's kind of funny looking at Catbox videos as they show off the device itself in quite sharp detail but not so much what is does visually with better recording video source files. While most people are likely using the default RF filmed off TV screens I think better videos are needed for sharper HD representation of the console ijs.


I think I tried a Jaguar maybe twice when it was released(I thought it was alright.) so I don't really know anything about how FMV or what the Jaguar CD was like. Don't worry I'll spare you any questions about hardware malfunctions, I'm not here to crap on the platform like so many others seem to relish in. ;)



Do any of the cart titles have FMV clips, how are Jaguar carts these days, any bigger like memory stick capacity where FMV would fit on them? Heard about the Skunk board, any new ones of those or similar? Can the default base unit run FMV at all without the CD add-on?


Don't see any MPEG chips so the Jaguar/JAG CD just crunched FMV through software and raw hardware throughput?


What kind of codecs did they use, any post JAGCD codecs tried out?


What was the resolution like on average, 320X240 mostly?


Can the Jaguar do video sprites like the 3DO did like in Killing Time?


FMV on Jaguar any good in your opinion, what would you say it was comparable to in quality, Video CDs, Sega Saturn, etc.?


I see particular CDRs are needed which is normal on consoles, I've to make Sega CDs but I guess I don't have to right kind lol. I guess nobody makes those bigger Atari CDs anymore, are homebrews on 650 MB format?


Said I wouldn't bring up malfunctions but does anyone have trouble running homebrews? I understand the logic of CD stamping homebrew games but that must present some challenges with the Jaguar CD and homebrew access? Does anybody sell ROMs/ISOs for emulator gaming?


Do you think the Jaguar could have made a go at Adult rated games like the 3DO? I'm assuming the average buyer of Jaguar was at least 18+ most of the time, yes/no? I know most of them weren't very good but hey even crap stuff like the Power Glove could have been better if it had had more than 1 true title made for it. And no I wasn't implying the Power Glove be used for that but I guess it could. :lol:



Played a lot of Sega CD games so tried my fair share of FMV games so I know the ups and downs of them. I'm not really set up for making such games at the moment so I'm just looking into various FMV potentials. You know if someone made an FMV retro homebrew the only way the budget could be justified NOW is if it came out on as many retro platforms as possible IE. Sega CD/Jaguar/3DO/PS1/Saturn/Dreamcast. Just pondering about it. :?

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Hi

 

The jaguar has fmv but no cards use it because of the amount if space it uses.

So some games are available on cartridge and cd the difference is that the cd version has the fmv. For example Iron Soldier 2

 

For movie playback there is cinepak codec support. Atari licensed cinepak and its inside the jaguar development kit.

 

But games not always use cinepak the Atari gamefilm engine was based on cinepak. Iron Soldier 2 doesn't use cinepak I think.

 

I read people did use FLI/FLV on the jaguar but never did see any released code of this.

Also other custom formats have been used.

 

Brainstorm the makers of the development kit software for he Atari Jaguar did make a software mpeg-1 player at that time without b-frame support they wanted to sell it to Atari but they had just bought cinepak so project died.

Atari did make an internal project for mpeg-1 cart that would allow people to play mpeg-1 movies but this project wasn't finised only does exist as pcb layout and little info. No working version exists project was 20% done I think.

 

 

 

 

Sent from UMI hammer with Tapatalk

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Hi

 

The jaguar has fmv but no cards use it because of the amount if space it uses.

So some games are available on cartridge and cd the difference is that the cd version has the fmv. For example Iron Soldier 2

 

For movie playback there is cinepak codec support. Atari licensed cinepak and its inside the jaguar development kit.

 

But games not always use cinepak the Atari gamefilm engine was based on cinepak. Iron Soldier 2 doesn't use cinepak I think.

 

I read people did use FLI/FLV on the jaguar but never did see any released code of this.

Also other custom formats have been used.

 

Brainstorm the makers of the development kit software for he Atari Jaguar did make a software mpeg-1 player at that time without b-frame support they wanted to sell it to Atari but they had just bought cinepak so project died.

Atari did make an internal project for mpeg-1 cart that would allow people to play mpeg-1 movies but this project wasn't finised only does exist as pcb layout and little info. No working version exists project was 20% done I think.

 

 

 

 

Sent from UMI hammer with Tapatalk

 

What he said ^ - Cinepak - there are tons of tools available with a quick search on google on various sites.

 

I'm not going to mention names but I'm pretty certain the MPEG1 cart is finished and working.

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Yah right there is no working mpeg card if so then point me in that direction.

The stuff we have on the mpeg card was released by Glenn Bruner he also confirms its not completed and working.

I never read/heard of any other mpeg card development for the Jaguar.

 

 

Sent from UMI hammer with Tapatalk

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I didn't think the FMV quality on the Jaguar distinguished itself. For obvious reasons, the best FMV of that era was the CD-i with MPEG adapter. I'd say the 3DO did rather well without any add-ons as well. Otherwise, the next jump in FMV quality really wouldn't happen until the PS1.

 

Also, why would anyone record the Jaguar off of RF or record the TV directly? It's easy enough to use composite, S-VIDEO, or RGB.

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I didn't think the FMV quality on the Jaguar distinguished itself. For obvious reasons, the best FMV of that era was the CD-i with MPEG adapter. I'd say the 3DO did rather well without any add-ons as well. Otherwise, the next jump in FMV quality really wouldn't happen until the PS1.

 

Also, why would anyone record the Jaguar off of RF or record the TV directly? It's easy enough to use composite, S-VIDEO, or RGB.

So you think FMV was about 3DO quality, the sort of average for the time without dedicated hardware? Yeah it was kind of weird bitd for FMV since many consoles had MPEG cards but they were expensive add-ons sold separately. Seems like most developers went the software route for the most part with FMV even on PCs in the 90s with codecs like Smacker. I saw some footage from that unreleased game American Hero, that would have probably shown off JAG FMV the most.

 

Well that's what I seeing in a lot of Jaguar videos on YouTube with a fair amount of TV filming. As far as output well I think that is mostly in the price and availability of better AV cables, looks like Composite isn't too hard to get but anything higher seems harder. If I lived in Europe it looks fairly easy to get RGB output through SCART but it seems harder to get S-video in NA.

I'm not sure exactly what is happening but platforms like the Jaguar and often the GBA are poorly represented on YT, the compression is fairly high so less than good video source files just get worse by the time they upload. There is some kind of gap between the better recording methods and the Jaguar because many other consoles have sharper YT representation.

 

World of Longplays has 3 good quality Jaguar videos, I don't know if they used an emulator or RGB output but they look good.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL18CDF59F6487A867

 

Do you know of any good places for Jaguar AV cables other than eBay or Amazon or is that it?

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Hi

 

The jaguar has fmv but no cards use it because of the amount if space it uses.

So some games are available on cartridge and cd the difference is that the cd version has the fmv. For example Iron Soldier 2

 

For movie playback there is cinepak codec support. Atari licensed cinepak and its inside the jaguar development kit.

 

But games not always use cinepak the Atari gamefilm engine was based on cinepak. Iron Soldier 2 doesn't use cinepak I think.

 

I read people did use FLI/FLV on the jaguar but never did see any released code of this.

Also other custom formats have been used.

 

Brainstorm the makers of the development kit software for he Atari Jaguar did make a software mpeg-1 player at that time without b-frame support they wanted to sell it to Atari but they had just bought cinepak so project died.

Atari did make an internal project for mpeg-1 cart that would allow people to play mpeg-1 movies but this project wasn't finised only does exist as pcb layout and little info. No working version exists project was 20% done I think.

 

 

 

 

Sent from UMI hammer with Tapatalk

Well I'm not surprised by the lack of MPEG chips, they were too expensive anyway and the consoles of the day did FMV decently enough without them, albeit the Sega CD not as well lol. It was probably for the best such things weren't made for the Jaguar, unwanted expense for a market not terribly into Video CDs.

 

Seeing that a lot more now than in the past the CD+Cart combo in homebrew, like Genesis games with CD soundtracks. Can the Jaguar do RAM carts like the Saturn can? Heard about the memory card approach through the slot so it can save games like the Sega CD did?

 

Cinepak seems like the go to bitd for consoles and they rarely seemed to deviate much, although there were less codecs back then.

 

Too bad FLI/FLV didn't happen, a lot of consoles are kind of stuck with the codec(s) they had when new because the new codecs take so much more spec to run. It's a lot of work to make a codec but it's too bad no one is likely to make a new format with all the insight and hindsight we have now with video compression. I think that is true of all the platforms that given another chance we could do a better job with FMV this time around.

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Do any of the cart titles have FMV clips, how are Jaguar carts these days, any bigger like memory stick capacity where FMV would fit on them? Heard about the Skunk board, any new ones of those or similar?

The Skunkboard is currently the cartridge with the largest memory capacity (8 MB). Official and homebrew cartridges are 4 MB or less.

 

Can the default base unit run FMV at all without the CD add-on?

Yes it can, but there's not much point, since the cartridges are too small to store any significant length of video.

 

Don't see any MPEG chips so the Jaguar/JAG CD just crunched FMV through software and raw hardware throughput?

What kind of codecs did they use, any post JAGCD codecs tried out?

As said above, no MPEG, since both the hardware and software decoders projects were cancelled before completion. Games use the Cinepak codec. I don't believe anybody tried using something different.

 

What was the resolution like on average, 320X240 mostly?

I believe so, but I haven't played JagCD games much.

 

Can the Jaguar do video sprites like the 3DO did like in Killing Time?

Yes. A notable usage is in Vid Grid, a jigsaw-like video puzzle game:

 

FMV on Jaguar any good in your opinion, what would you say it was comparable to in quality, Video CDs, Sega Saturn, etc.?

It's pretty average. Not as bad as video on the Sega CD, but not nearly as good as Video CDs or PS1 videos. The color palette is OK, but there is a significant macroblocking effect. It's basically on par with how Cinepak looked on PCs of the same era.

 

I see particular CDRs are needed which is normal on consoles, I've to make Sega CDs but I guess I don't have to right kind lol. I guess nobody makes those bigger Atari CDs anymore, are homebrews on 650 MB format?

CDs for the JagCD are nothing special, the only reason they can store more than 650 MB is because Atari reduced the amount of error correction codes. Regular CD-Rs can be used, and several homebrews with video have been released.

Said I wouldn't bring up malfunctions but does anyone have trouble running homebrews? I understand the logic of CD stamping homebrew games but that must present some challenges with the Jaguar CD and homebrew access?

Most of the technical hurdles for running homebrew code on CDs have been solved. The main problem is that the JagCD itself is pretty temperamental, especially with CD-Rs since it wasn't designed to read them.

 

Does anybody sell ROMs/ISOs for emulator gaming?

Apart from a few homebrew authors that offer that option, there are no publishers for digital downloads. Anyone selling ROMs or ISOs for games they didn't write is doing so illegally.

 

Do you think the Jaguar could have made a go at Adult rated games like the 3DO?

There's an unreleased game (whose name I can't remember right now) with videos that would be rated 15+.

Edited by Zerosquare
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Can the Jaguar do RAM carts like the Saturn can?

It was not designed to do that. A RAM cart could still be made, but it would be expensive and have reduced performance, so there hasn't been any interest.

 

Heard about the memory card approach through the slot so it can save games like the Sega CD did?

Yes, it's for saving games only.

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The Skunkboard is currently the cartridge with the largest memory capacity (8 MB). Official and homebrew cartridges are 4 MB or less.

 

Yes it can, but there's not much point, since the cartridges are too small to store any significant length of video.

Yeah I didn't think currently that would be possible. Is there any barrier to just making the cartridge bigger?

 

Yes. A notable usage is in Vid Grid, a jigsaw-like video puzzle game:

Right silly me, didn't put that one together and I'd seen it a more than a few times in compilations. :dunce:

 

It's pretty average. Not as bad as video on the Sega CD, but not nearly as good as Video CDs or PS1 videos. The color palette is OK, but there is a significant macroblocking effect. It's basically on par with how Cinepak looked on PCs of the same era.

Okay I see, I'm familiar with that kind of artifacting. Most of my FMV game research has lead to Cinepak, I really should get acquainted with it.

 

CDs for the JagCD are nothing special, the only reason they can store more than 650 MB is because Atari reduced the amount of error correction codes. Regular CD-Rs can be used, and several homebrews with video have been released.

So homebrewers don't need that error correction code anymore or does it reduce how much of the 650 MB you can use?

 

Most of the technical hurdles for running homebrew code on CDs have been solved. The main problem is that the JagCD itself is pretty temperamental, especially with CD-Rs since it wasn't designed to read them.

I figured the coding had been solved so I was mostly mentioning the mechanical failures, so temperamental a bit. :|

 

Apart from a few homebrew authors that offer that option, there are no publishers for digital downloads. Anyone selling ROMs or ISOs for games they didn't write is doing so illegally.

Didn't think so but I had to ask. It's a tricky matter to protect them with selling but it does open commerce to a lot of gamers that play exclusively through emulation so I hope somebody gives it a try someday. :)

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It was not designed to do that. A RAM cart could still be made, but it would be expensive and have reduced performance, so there hasn't been any interest.

When you say reduced performance, do you mean like frame rate or increased loading pauses because the data transfer is slow?

 

So you can't use it as system memory but could you keep a data pool on such a cart? Was trying to think of better way to do prerendered 3D backgrounds like Highlander/Resident Evil on the cart instead of the CD streaming content so that could handle music and or voice tracks.

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The quality of the FMV games (like BrainDead 13, Space Ace, Dragon's Lair) is not bad but it does have this jagged lines not present in other system ... not sure a limitation of the codec or else.

You can actually see its effects even on YT videos of those games.

Yeah I noticed the slight jaggies here and there, noticeable but not a deal breaker in my books. Quite tricky with the compression, like is that the video or is that YT compression I'm seeing. :|

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Yeah I noticed the slight jaggies here and there, noticeable but not a deal breaker in my books. Quite tricky with the compression, like is that the video or is that YT compression I'm seeing. :|

In the case of the JagCD part/all of the jaggies are in the actual Jag video (depends on YT quality if any is added) ... I have the JagCD with all the FMV games and they all show those artifacts.

I can tell you the CDi and 3DO didn't show those artifacts by far and large (I don't have access to the complete library for those to state that none of their titles show the same symptoms), likely it is a codec problem rather than a platform shortcoming per se, but given that was all that was available for JagCD devs the result could/should have been better.

So told in the Vid Grid games the subjects of the video (there are almost no sharp/defined lines) make it so the artifacts are not visible, so the impact is pretty marked mostly on cartoon kind of FMV.

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When you say reduced performance, do you mean like frame rate or increased loading pauses because the data transfer is slow?

 

So you can't use it as system memory but could you keep a data pool on such a cart? Was trying to think of better way to do prerendered 3D backgrounds like Highlander/Resident Evil on the cart instead of the CD streaming content so that could handle music and or voice tracks.

 

I was always curious about this as well. I've always heard reduced bandwidth by half but would it be fast enough to act as sort of a memory buffer or cache to slowly carry over into the main ram on the Jag itself. I think it was kind of moot anyway as it was still capped at either 6MB anyways because IIRC, the Jag couldn't address more than that anyway, though I could be completely wrong going from memory.

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Looking closer at the World of Longplays JAG videos I think that was emulator recorded because the alpha masking is all screwed up in AVP. My topic is more about system FMV but it is also about console AV output too as well as web representation of the Jaguar to a lesser extent so here we are for this post.

 

 

 

-Mostly looked for the best examples, easier anyway since there are fewer and was looking for certain visual aspects to highlight.

 

-Wow a lot videos just looking at Jaguar console pieces rather than playing it, that or looking at some dude talk about it for 30 minutes. :?

 

-Also noticed so called stock footage use, not so bad if the quality is good but bad when you can make better footage yourself.

 

 

 

 

This ones pretty good too as it preserves the 4:3 aspect ratio with some pillarboxing. He brings up something I totally missed about Atari Karts, its full screen unlike SMK and the background has parallax, I was looking at the driver so much I didn't notice.

 

 

 

 

A shared topic but some clean Jaguar footage. Man neither of them are into Jaguar so be warned, don't want to hear it then skip this one or mute it. :lol:

 

 

 

 

This one is interesting because it looks like the interlacing is attacking the sharpness of moving objects. Also the original compression might be a tad too high. A nice compilation but there must be some interference in there.

 

 

 

 

There's definitely a unique image quality to the output of the consoles from this era that even the best native examples have some inherent "crunchiness" to them. I can't quite pin down what causes thatch dither patterns here and there, see it in 3DO often too. The best I can come up with is the divide of RGB versus all other AV standards since I doubt VGA looks quite like Component or lower.

 

 

 

 

In this one I see something I've seen in a few examples which is letterboxing or clipping of the output image on the exterior edge. Looks like it varies per title and probably has something to do with NTSC PAL differences or basic "safe zone" SD-TV clipping requirements.

 

 

 

 

Just for fun. ;) Man no system looks good when you look at all the old advertisements or promotions, video game marketing in the 90s was weird. :twisted:

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There's definitely a unique image quality to the output of the consoles from this era that even the best native examples have some inherent "crunchiness" to them. I can't quite pin down what causes thatch dither patterns here and there, see it in 3DO often too.

 

You're probably talking about dot crawl, the causes of which are quite well understood.

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