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The Atari Jaguar Ethernet/FLASH card


Matthias

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@matthias : I just had a quick look around on RS and they list a FastEthernet chip for £6.17 each or if you buy more than 25 £4.94 each.  The part number is:

 

STE100P in an STM package.  The PDF's are on RS's website for it too.  but you have to register to get at them (which is free)  http://www.rswww.com  .  I found it in the following section:

 

All products, Electronic, Semiconductors - Drivers & INterface , Trancievers, Other Transcievers

 

Not sure if it's of any use to you or of comparible price.. hopefully it's of some use to you.

 

RS arn't reknown for being the cheapest suppliers around, so you may be able to find the same elsewhere they do seem to have a very good stock of parts tho :).

 

Like said, the board is already designed...I was just thinking of ways it could be done, but then again all my solutions tend to be geared towards my style of production - hobbyist-level boards where I'll be making one or two by hand ;)

 

PCBs are overrated anyway...we should all move back to stripboard! :D ;)

 

Stone

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Like said, the board is already designed...I was just thinking of ways it could be done, but then again all my solutions tend to be geared towards my style of production - hobbyist-level boards where I'll be making one or two by hand ;)

 

PCBs are overrated anyway...we should all move back to stripboard! :D ;)

 

Stone

 

Indeed. I was thinking it may be worth a look, the pinouts of the chips may be the same or very close requiring minimal adjustments. I agree stripboard rules!

 

Do you have a copy of StripBoard magic? It was a commercial product for layout out stripboard boards from schematics, will even compress the board to make it as small as possible. The company that wrote it, abandoned it or went under so it's freely availible now. Worth a search, it's a handy little app.

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Do you have a copy of StripBoard magic?  It was a commercial product for layout out stripboard boards from schematics, will even compress the board to make it as small as possible.  The company that wrote it, abandoned it or went under so it's freely availible now.  Worth a search, it's a handy little app.

 

Was looking at the one at stripboard.com, but I knew I saw a different one only a few days ago, and couldn't find it...this looks like the one! Cheers for the tip :D

 

*prepares to feed it a nasty schematic*

 

Stone

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Hi!

 

Hmm when 10/100 Mps pci cards are cheap, is it not possible to creat an adapter with an pci-bridge chip (maybe these are cheaper) then a cs8900 board. The last I bought was $74 without shipping... :-(

 

I think the idea is that Matthias already has a board designed and spent countless dollars and hours prototyping and testing it and already has to make back his initial investment to break even. If he has to go back to the start and begin all over with a different approach to the design, it will delay the release by many months and double the money he has to invest in prototyping which translates into a higher price to the customer.

 

I don't have dozens or hundreds lying around, the CS8900A is too expensive to do this. So that's not the problem.

 

When i looked around last year it seemed that the CS8900A was the right choice, the whole world seemed to use it for their hobby-projects.

And Doug is right, getting familiar with such chips and circuit-designs takes it's time, and i am not an hw-expert. I pick up things which have proven that they work.

 

Perhaps we should all wait till all parts of the card are working well together, and if we then aren't satisfied, then we still can start to improve it. The Jaguar has only 2MB RAM, or 4MB-card-space, does it really matter if you wait 1 second or 10 seconds to fill the RAM?

 

Matthias

 

PS: LinkoVitch, i doubt that the STE100P-chip would be an alternative.

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Great ideas!!! It must be done and it must be to buy it!!!

I want it in Poland!!!

 

Sikor - it's great to see you here :)

 

Matthias: This is a great project!

 

I would like to have at least one - just like Sikor - shipped to Poland.

 

Regarding MAC discussion - I really don't understand why we can not buy those cheap network adapters in rage of 5 Euro, put it in to the trash and use it's MAC address - after all we did paid the NIC vendor so he can buy more MAC addresses.

Cheers,

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Regarding MAC discussion - I really don't understand why we can not buy those cheap network adapters in rage of 5 Euro, put it in to the trash and use it's MAC address - after all we did paid the NIC vendor so he can buy more MAC addresses.  

 

One reason is that the hardware MFG is supposed to be traced by the MAC address. It's similar to writing your own code and then saying it's "microsoft superpong 3000" in the title.

 

You're not supposed to take someone else's name in your products. This is what you are doing if you borrow a MAC address.

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You're not supposed to take someone else's name in your products. This is what you are doing if you borrow a MAC address.

 

Ok. I fully agree whit you TBird on this issue. However for homebrew development project testing phase I don't see how it could hurt anyone including the NIC vendors - you change your MAC address through API even under Windows NT/2K. I think that our community should resolve the problem in legal way. I guess additional 5 Euro is not a huge overhead in final price and I guess we could try to find NIC vendor that would agree to sell it's NIC(s) with Matthias hardware.

 

Cheers,

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Ok. I fully agree whit you TBird on this issue. However for homebrew development project testing phase I don't see how it could hurt anyone including the NIC vendors - you change your MAC address through API even under Windows NT/2K. I think that our community should resolve the problem in legal way. I guess additional 5 Euro is not a huge overhead in final price and I guess we could try to find NIC vendor that would agree to sell it's NIC(s) with Matthias hardware.

 

That would be one solution. I believe that this would be legal.

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I think another solution would possibly be to find a company that rents MAC addresses. I remember reading about this several years ago, but unfortunately I'm unable to find anything regarding this through Google. It could be worth looking into though.

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I had a quick mooch on IEEE's website. It seems that you can get a block of MAC addresses assigned to you for the sum of $550 (thats the only price I saw on the form, it was just a cursory look). However they only sell in blocks of 4096 minimum and ask that you not use any until you are ready to ship 90% of your stock.

 

Unless I have read it wrong. But I think thats a LOT of cards and initial outlay. It would be worth someone having a good close look over that if indeed planning to buy some addresses. Perhaps drop them a mail and see if the 90% thing is strictly enforced.

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Hi!

 

I had a quick mooch on IEEE's website.  It seems that you can get  a block of MAC addresses assigned to you for the sum of $550 (thats the only price I saw on the form, it was just a cursory look).  However they only sell in blocks of 4096 minimum and ask that you not use any until you are ready to ship 90% of your stock.  

 

Unless I have read it wrong.  But I think thats a LOT of cards and initial outlay.  It would be worth someone having a good close look over that if indeed planning to buy some addresses.  Perhaps drop them a mail and see if the 90% thing is strictly enforced.

 

I have got my informations from this site:

http://standards.ieee.org/faqs/OUI.html

 

There they ask for 1650 USD for a OrganizitionUniqueIdentifier (the first 3 bytes of a MAC).

This OUI is good for > 16million numbers.

 

Matthias

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Hello!

 

I looked at http://standards.ieee.org/regauth/oui/pilot-ind.html if you click through to the form you see a charge for $550 at the very bottom.  Not sure if this applies to that one type of payment or for any of them.

 

 

Perhaps this is a good start-page:

http://standards.ieee.org/regauth/oui/index.shtml

 

This is the list telling which company has bought which IAB (=4096 ethernet-addresses:

http://standards.ieee.org/regauth/oui/iab.txt

 

I haven't found a better explanation of IndividualAddressBlock,

but it seems that for the mentioned 550 USD you can get a small block of 4096 6byte-addresses (which i understand can be used as MAC), which is a third of the 1650 USD for a OUI which would allow you to use 16mio addresses.

 

Matthias

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The only problem I see with the IAB is this quote from their site (the page before the form)

 

The IEEE Registration Authority will assign an additional OUI to any organization requesting one, providing they submit a letter on company letterhead to the IEEE Standards Department, stating that their company will not "ship" product in the new block assignment until well after they have reached (shipped) at least 90% of the block assignment, in the context of a specified standard. Your company should ensure that large numbers of derived identifiers are not left unused.

 

which to me says you would need to produce at least 3700 units!

 

Perhaps it may be worth looking for other hobbyist projects that want official mac addresses and join forces. Or just stick to the MAC borrowing approach. :)

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Hello!

 

The only problem I see with the IAB is this quote from their site (the page before the form)

 

The IEEE Registration Authority will assign an additional OUI to any organization requesting one, providing they submit a letter on company letterhead to the IEEE Standards Department, stating that their company will not "ship" product in the new block assignment until well after they have reached (shipped) at least 90% of the block assignment, in the context of a specified standard. Your company should ensure that large numbers of derived identifiers are not left unused.

 

which to me says you would need to produce at least 3700 units!

 

Seems that they have copied this footer from the OUI-form.

 

What they mean is, that you don't get a new "block" number before you don't assure them that you have already used more than 90% of the numbers in your "block".

 

This should keep you from using the OUI "00-00-01" for you ISA-cards where of you only want to manufacture 300, and trying to get OUI "00-00-02" for your 700 PCI-cards. They just don't want to waste too much numbers and to do the administrating for you.

 

Matthias

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Yeah I was reading the big fight about mac addresses, and had to add my bit.Number 1 I worked for big broadband network(7 million as I last heard it) and used to investigate/war room( control centre) data , and monitor the network, both in small segments, to the larger segments.Most of my experience I have seen, nothing text book wise, but have actually had the problem right in front of me.I dont know whos quotes I am using, but here it goes.And No I am not trying to start a fight.Just my experiences

 

 

"It would also send out a little message telling the head end the branch where the duplicate MAC was found, and then that particilar node would be carefully investigated for other strange activity. If it persisted, the guys with the little vans with the ladders would be dispatched and they would look closely on the wires up on the pole, find your house and knock on the door. "

 

Yes and No.For the fact each provider runs there servers Subscriber identification differnet.If we are going by mac address yes there would be a conflict.And no , a service man isnt going to go out and investigate it.No need to, all the tools are there at your finger tips.Most of the time you send a service guy to do 2 things on the pole .He is either going out there to turn on the tap, or he is going out there to adjust the frequency.And 9/10 times if it a service issue it a frequency adjustment.Hed will also go out and inspect the node to make sure it is in functioning condition ,and have a physical inspection of it.If there is a security issue they will monitor the network and sit.Also some providers run computer name/idenfication number so mac address are pretty much void, other than the modem mac.

 

 

"The very reason MAC level addressing is maintained on these types of networks is to be able to track down pirates and bandwidth theives. "

 

yes and no also, depending on how the provider runs there set up.I know for our huge network we used mac addresses for identification.And yes we had people with the same mac addresses.But our tools let use look at them.How you say?REMEMBER the service agreement u signed when u got the service? Well the provider is allowed.Rememeber your cable/dsl modem? Well the mac address talk to the modem if u want to say.And they reason why they do this is for 3 reasons 1)to control the amount of possible traffic on a given area.On the long term goal it is to know when to up the frequency and upgrade the servers.So x amount of mac address for so much bandwidth.2) So valid customers are identified and are protected against theft 3) depending on how ur provider works, but some and we used to, charge for ip addresses for each mac card.It is in there best interest to know how many macs to ip they are being charged.As far as bandwidth theives, I disagree.You cannot steal bandwidth with a mac address.You can try but you will not be able to connect as the server will not reconize a second identical mac address.I know we tried on a many occassions to test new software(All legal).There are really 2 ways to steal bandwidth other than find the line digigng it up and pinching into it. 1) you change the configuration file of the modem 2) or you have the tools to change the frequency of the line, which if u do an do not know the frequencys, your modem will disconnect as the configuration file is preset with the parameters.Also you will need abit of help with the server also, as it keeps live frequency readings.If you screw with those, screw up, that when A tech will come out and have a look see.

 

 

 

"We're not talking about the backbone here, we're talking about the ability for a MAC address to be known by someone other than you. By whatever means necessary. You seem to think that there's someone out there thinking that they can take an old linux PC and some alligator clips and tap into the internet backbone and sniff your traffic"

 

 

Yeah your provider, at about 2 clicks u can see everything.As a hacker, knowing who your provider is, and a few phone calls.

 

 

"I have no misconceptions, and am NOT using double talk, I am trying to give real world examples of why MAC addresses can be made up in a LAN without any major problem. "

 

 

Totally disagree.Called network conflict.

 

 

 

No I am not spouting technobable. The list of protocols was to illustrate that there is more than just EtherNet used, and as MAC addresses in this discussion are for EtherNet hardware, their propigation stops at the end of the EtherNet segment. Now as these various segments all over the world are linked by lots of other protocols that don't use the EtherNet MAC address, there is no way it is going to conflict with someone elses hardware unless they are on YOUR LAN in YOUR segment.

 

 

 

Slight disagreement, ok I disgree. segment? you talking within your network or on the network as whole?if it a a whole woooo no way.We had someone from seattle ----> florida with the same mac id.Remember each of those smaller segments equal one big one.All of our data was feed into out main frames and recorded all of this in a flash, so to say it would fine on your local network no way, on your natianl network no way.If you however ran one on one provider, and used on another provider maybe.Depending if they are sharing mac id information.You have to remember the backbone is owned in segments.A company will lease a portion of it, and the next area is owned by another.I know we used to cross refernce out stuff with other networks especially when we were goign to take over a segment or buy out a provider.But of course subscribers used our"software" which was nothing more than spyware.Pretty sweet stuff to.

 

 

"Is there ANY reason you can think of that a company would want to know the MAC addresses of devices on the network they run?"

 

 

yeah cash if they charge for ip address assigned to macs, or to get a better projection of future upgrades.Also to protect the subscriber.

 

 

"The fact that there's only a small chance your stolen number will cause a network conflict is beside the point. It's a stolen number."

 

 

Wow I would have to think you wouldnt be able to connect. also rememeber your mac address is only half of the puzzle, the other half is you cable/dsl modem.Without either you are goign to be SOL.Each modem mac is also assigned to mac addresses.So even if you had you modem , and started inserting strange numbers, the server wouldnt reconize it, unless u called them and asked u to add it.Of course if it aused nic, it will come back as alreayd used.Then u might get the sweatdown of who is the manufacture etc.

 

 

 

 

Anyways that my 2 cents from my ex job.Remember no fights I am not trying to pick any.

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  • 3 weeks later...
  • 3 months later...

Hello,

 

here are pictures (taken with my flatbed scanner) of the latest PCB-generation.

The Ethernet-part was completely re-designed, the type of the

serial E2proms is changed from DIP to SMD and two logic-chips

are removed. The freed space is now "occupied" by two 16pin

DIP-socket placeholders. JP1 on the "left" edge will be used

to connect the reset-key.

 

The front:

JaguarComboV13front.jpg

 

The rear:

JaguarComboV13rear.jpg

 

Regards

Matthias

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Hello guys. I have spent several hours recently on the website "How stuff works" looiing up internet and ethernet, Mac addresses and NIC etc. Now the posts in this thread doesnt sound so much like Charlie Brown's parents to me. Well, not completely anymore anyway. Just don't get all crazy with the technobabble on me. :P

 

Its funny this thread popped up again because my friend has DSL and got 2 additional comps from his girlfriends work that they were throwing away plus his original one. . So he got himself a hub to make a home network off one DSL connection. Then was having internet problems and then on recommmendation from a computer tech got a DSL/Cable router for about $40 or so. He hooked it up and was still having trouble. So he called his ISP and they knew immediatly he was running a network, and that he had a router, and not a hub hooked up and how many systems were on there etc. It was funny because the lady on the phone was chewing him out! :lolblue: I tried to tell him might be good idea to unhook his network completely before he called them. So it seems they can tell after a fashion what is going on with a private network segment hooked to the internet through an ISP.

 

One odd thing the lady mentioned was that DSL modems are not recommended to be run with surge protection :? That sounds strange to me.

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So he called his ISP and they knew immediatly he was running a network, and that he had a router, and not a hub hooked up and how many systems were on there etc. It was funny because the lady on the phone was chewing him out! :lolblue:  I tried to tell him might be good idea to unhook his network completely before he called them. So it seems they can tell after a fashion what is going on with a private network segment hooked to the internet through an ISP.  

 

Not really what we were debating earlier. It is possible to tell, especially if it's setup wrong, which if your friend has simply slapped the router in place and expected it to work it most likley would be.

 

Setup correctly they can't tell, and if you get chewed out for running a home network off your DSL line get a different provider. They don't have to support it (which their support guys will love), but they shouldn't chew you out for having one.. Just get the router setup correctly first.

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Yeah, he pretty much slapped the router in place and expected it to work it seems. He's pretty much a caveman in the way he deals with things. I don't think he's read the instructions. He may have actually ate them.

 

Linkovich, do you know anything about this ladies claim that DSL modems shouldn't be hooked up to surge protection?

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Linkovich, do you know anything about this ladies claim that DSL modems shouldn't be hooked up to surge protection?

 

No idea.. I would guess that she is meaning don't run it through a phone line surge protector (like you get to protect phone lines). I am assuming this is how you get your DSL there (over the phone line).

 

all I can think of, however I don't work with DSL customers, I am too senior to deal with that sort of stuff :)

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