Mega Demo?

[MaDDuck]

I know this is a stretch, but has there ever been a megademo made for our 99's like on the Commodore C64?

 

The 99 doesn't have the prowess of the VIC II or SID chips, but I think they can do some very good things especially since the F18A board is so popular,

[+OLD CS1]

There is one in the works, already. I believe you will find the thread under the Development forum.

[+eebuckeye]

I'm really impressed by some of the graphics I see with Vic20 demos (with only some memory expansion).

[Asmusr]

I know this is a stretch, but has there ever been a megademo made for our 99's like on the Commodore C64?

 

The 99 doesn't have the prowess of the VIC II or SID chips, but I think they can do some very good things especially since the F18A board is so popular,

 

We can also do very good things without F18A or SID chips. Heh, heh...

[MaDDuck]

 

We can also do very good things without F18A or SID chips. Heh, heh...

 

True dat, Asmusr

But.....

The SID chips are fracking awesome and the VIC II lets you control graphics timing down to the scan line.

[MaDDuck]

Oh.

Here's an example of the demand for the SID chip

 

I'm selling my SID Symphony on eBay:

http://my.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?MyEbay&gbh=1

 

And it's already up to $81.00

[+OLD CS1]

Oh.

Here's an example of the demand for the SID chip

 

I'm selling my SID Symphony on eBay:

http://my.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?MyEbay&gbh=1

 

And it's already up to $81.00

 

As a big Commodore devotee, I have a few things to say. First, both of your comments are qualitative assessments which prove nothing. I am very familiar with the capabilities of both the VIC II and SID chips, but the insistence that the product of using those versus an Antic, 9918A, POKEY, 9919, or other discounts what can be done with any of them in the hands of talented programmers and hardware architects.

 

Your SID Symphony's rising bid price is meaningless in this context. I would like one simply because the cartridge makes it easier to add a second SID for stereo and it is portable between machines whereas the internal upgrade is not. In terms of quantitative assessment, figure that there are many more derivatives of the 9919 in existence and in use across platforms than the SID. Descendants of the 9919 find homes in arcade games, video game consoles, and various computers, while the SID enjoys no such lineage. One could therefore conclude that the 9919 and its PSG progeny are more popular or more capable.

 

I often read about how certain hardware will create better product because of x-capability: chips with hardware sprites are superior, and yet look at what was turned out for the Ataris with simple player-missile graphics, about which David Crane gives great talks on advanced techniques; or edify yourself with more contemporary productions like Majesty of Sprites for the Plus4 which TED chip lacks sprites; or search this forum for any of the games and demos produced by Rasmus for the TI using nothing more than the stock 9918A (including scan-line effects.)

 

You may not have meant to do so, but your last few posts sound to me like those of someone trolling to revive the Home Computer Religious Wars, and I think, at least in this modern day and time, we have come far enough to recognize that great artists make great things irrespective of the limitations of the medium and, in the end, the medium can be largely irrelevant.

[+Ksarul]

And if you really have a hankering for a SID chip in your TI, it has been done--and done well by Marc Hull, for a most reasonable price.

[Asmusr]

Is there any documentation available for how to program the SID Master 99?

[iKarith]

I'd argue that if you really want a SID in your TI, you have a great argument for one of the newer SID recreations. In a TI it doesn't have to be "exact" sound to either the 6581 or the 858x chips because we don't have the games that use them, though the newest chips are actually pretty close approximations of the 858x I'm told. (I haven't heard one yet.)

 

The big thing with the Commodore chips is that the SIDs are wanted also by musicians despite the fact that the recreations serve them quite well and are arguably better for their purposes anyway. The VIC II chip, like the SID, is simply not available anymore and is a chip frequently damaged by thermal runaway in the craptastic US Commodore power supply. Not only that, only a couple of mods are needed to turn a European C64 into a US model, the first step of which is to obtain a US VIC II chip.

 

As a result, both of these chips are needed for far more than the original machines. Add to that the problem of all but the earliest US power supplies being ticking time bombs that feed 7.5V into 5V chips (DRAMs don't like that at all, and other chips aren't much happier about it), you can pretty much expect there to be a need for replacements that far outstrips supply of these no longer manufactured parts.

[+OLD CS1]

Is there any documentation available for how to program the SID Master 99?

 

Marc notes it is a "PEB interface cards that integrates an MOS 6581 or MOS 8580 SID chip into the architecture of the TI99/4A as a memory mapped device. It can be accessed through any language that allows normal CPU memory access such as assembly language, Extended BASIC etc. If you can do a CALL LOAD or equivalent then you can access the SID chip."

 

ISTR he mentions its address somewhere else on his page or in his documentation. Ergo, if you know how to program a SID you can program the SM99. I have been playing with mine to create some simple sounds like bells and some ring-modulated bass -- I have the tables, all I need is the base address

 

 

I'd argue that if you really want a SID in your TI, you have a great argument for one of the newer SID recreations. In a TI it doesn't have to be "exact" sound to either the 6581 or the 858x chips because we don't have the games that use them, though the newest chips are actually pretty close approximations of the 858x I'm told. (I haven't heard one yet.)

 

The big thing with the Commodore chips is that the SIDs are wanted also by musicians despite the fact that the recreations serve them quite well and are arguably better for their purposes anyway. The VIC II chip, like the SID, is simply not available anymore and is a chip frequently damaged by thermal runaway in the craptastic US Commodore power supply.

 

I would tend to agree since the only thing the SID Master software plays right now are MUS file songs derived from the original COMPUTE! Music Player format, and I am not aware of too many (if any) which rely on the particular qualities of either the 6581 or 8580.

 

Though, while the SID does use VCC input, I am almost positive (have to whip out the schematics later) it is fed from the on-board 5V regulator.

 

(I don't expect time to do anything today as FLDEM is activated to level two and I will be confirming my own site backups)

[+Ksarul]

It depends on which SID chip you are using--I fed the 6581 the 12V it needs but I put a jumper-selectable 9V regulator in there so that it would also work with the 8580. That's why there are two separate SID sockets on the board. . .the jumper effectively enables (or disables) the sockets to keep the voltages from EVER crossing the wrong way. Of course, you might still get someone who put the chip into the wrong socket, but having them separate and identified should keep that kind of errors to a minimum.

[+OLD CS1]

I was disappointed to find the second socket was not for a second SID for stereo.

[Tursi]

This is going largely on memory and the Classic99 code I still have, but the SID card maps itself into the DSR space any time any CRU address less than >1000 is written. The idea was that it would then work from Extended BASIC since the keyboard scan would automatically map it into memory when no DSR was active. So it maps in at >4000. I don't remember the exact memory map anymore, though.

 

There are three notable points, IIRC. First is that the data written is latched and applied continuously to the chip, so you need to be aware that it will see that written value every cycle, and change it to something else if it will interfere. (I don't remember the SID well enough to remember what that means, precisely). Second is that due to a separate clock, you must assert your value, hold it for a moment, then release it. A flat write then release may not be long enough. You could calculate the correct delay, IIRC it runs at 1MHz. Finally you can not read back from the SID - it's write only. That's not a problem 95% of the time.

 

Based on memory, anyway. Here is an XB test app ported from the C64 manual, basically just replacing the POKEs with the appropriate CALL LOADs. Unless I can find the SID DLL source for Classic99 I'm not sure I can explain better.

 

10 CALL CLEAR :: CALL INIT
11 FC=0 :: WF=17 :: ATK=132 :: SR=17 :: PH=2 :: PL=255
20 FOR C=22582 TO 22576 :: CALL LOAD(C,0):: NEXT C
30 V=22576 :: W=22536 :: A=22538 :: HF=22530 :: LF=22528 :: S=22540 :: PH=22534 :: PL=22532
35 CALL LOAD(V,15)
40 CALL LOAD(A,ATK):: CALL LOAD(PH,15):: CALL LOAD(PL,15)
45 CALL LOAD(22540,SR)
46 PRINT "WAVEFORM=";WF:"ATTACK/DECAY=";ATK:"SUSTAIN/RELEASE=";SR: :
50 READ H :: IF H=-1 THEN 1000
60 READ L :: READ D
65 CALL LOAD(HF,H):: CALL LOAD(LF,L):: CALL LOAD(W,WF)
70 CALL LOAD(22578,0)
80 FOR T=1 TO D :: NEXT T :: CALL LOAD(W,WF-1)
85 FOR T=1 TO D/(D/2):: NEXT T
90 GOTO 50
100 DATA 34,75,25,43,52,25,51,97,70,43,52,8,51,97
110 DATA 25,57,172,25
120 DATA 51,97,50,0,0,12,43,52,25,51,97,25,57,172
130 DATA 100,51,97,50,-1,-1,-1
1000 CALL LOAD(HF,0):: CALL LOAD(LF,0)
1010 RESTORE
1020 IF WF=17 THEN WF=33 :: GOTO 1030
1021 IF WF=33 THEN WF=65 :: GOTO 1030
1025 IF WF=65 THEN WF=17 :: GOTO 1030
1026 IF WF=65 THEN PH=PH-1 :: PL=PL+2
1029 IF WF=65 THEN PH=PH*2 :: PL=PL/2
1030 CALL LOAD(22532,PH):: CALL LOAD(22534,PL)
1040 IF WF=17 THEN ATK=ATK/2+2 :: SR=SR*2
1500 FC=FC+1 :: IF FC<17 THEN 40
2000 FOR C=22528 TO 22568 :: CALL LOAD(C,0):: NEXT C

[marc.hull]

The docs on my site list the address of the registers of SID chip on the SM99 card. I can't remember off the top of my head.

 

I have tried a swinsid in the card and it works but doesn't behave like a genuine sid chip. There are many sounds that don't translate well with the player. Although this plays havoc with the sound of some songs for the player software it could be useful for new compositions. It does have an annoying habit of issuing a bell sound when reset which happens when the card is shut off. My opinion is that the SID6581 is the best option.

 

The only thing you cannot do with the SM99 is read the AD registers for the paddles or the osc 3 current state so some modulation effects are not available although the player has it's own modulation function.

[Asmusr]

The docs on my site list the address of the registers of SID chip on the SM99 card. I can't remember off the top of my head.

 

I have tried a swinsid in the card and it works but doesn't behave like a genuine sid chip. There are many sounds that don't translate well with the player. Although this plays havoc with the sound of some songs for the player software it could be useful for new compositions. It does have an annoying habit of issuing a bell sound when reset which happens when the card is shut off. My opinion is that the SID6581 is the best option.

 

The only thing you cannot do with the SM99 is read the AD registers for the paddles or the osc 3 current state so some modulation effects are not available although the player has it's own modulation function.

 

I can't find the docs on your site. Do you have a link? Thanks.

[TMR]

I have tried a swinsid in the card and it works but doesn't behave like a genuine sid chip. There are many sounds that don't translate well with the player. Although this plays havoc with the sound of some songs for the player software it could be useful for new compositions.

The more recent SwinSID Ultimate is supposed to be far more accurate, atlhough i don't know where to get them right now... the SwinSID Nano i have is reasonable too though, it wouldn't fool someone who knows the SID well but is reasonable for most purposes.

[+OLD CS1]

The more recent SwinSID Ultimate is supposed to be far more accurate, atlhough i don't know where to get them right now... the SwinSID Nano i have is reasonable too though, it wouldn't fool someone who knows the SID well but is reasonable for most purposes.

 

I just cannot do it. I will pay $40 for each 6581 off Wayne before I will buy a repro.

[marc.hull]

 

I can't find the docs on your site. Do you have a link? Thanks.

I'm on my phone and don't know how currently but if you go to DSAPSC.COM and enter the "free SID music" page it is the last download on that page.

[MaDDuck]

Nice.

I like how this thread evolved from a question about a megademo, troll accusation, real talk about programing.

Very nice,

Edited June 10, 2016 by MaDDuck

[+Ksarul]

We do try to keep things nice, but unfortunately, like with any large group of humans (well, except for me, since I am definitely NOT human), random craziness occasionally ensues. . .

[Asmusr]

We're working on a megademo. Several effects have never been seen on the TI before, @MaDDuck please let me know if you want to contribute.

[+OLD CS1]

Nice.

troll accusation

Very nice

 

Hardly. My point was, and I stated clearly, that is how your posts sounded, and I also stated clearly that you might not have meant it.

[MaDDuck]

We're working on a megademo. Several effects have never been seen on the TI before, @MaDDuck please let me know if you want to contribute.

 

I wish I could. I have no programing skills.

I'm more of a hardware guy than a software guy.

[+Ksarul]

We have lots of hardware stuff inching towards fruition, so more hardware people can be very useful too