phoenixdownita Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 The point is that if the line is at "what can I get away with?" then it's not a very good situation, if you abstract out from old, retro games then what about music, movies, or even real goods. I'm not worried about it just stating that we are doing something we shouldn't be, and I am not sure we're ready for the consequences. I have a story here: A friend of mine was "distributing" PS1 stuff back in the day *(late 90s), eventually they caught up with him and of all things they were using his very old stash of much older games (C64 disks, ZX spectrum tapes) as a proof that he infringed on thousands of copyrights .... it was not a good period for him and considering that by the time he was rolling his "backups" the C64 was dead and buried for more than 15 years in the local market it didn't seem it mattered. It was expensive, time consuming and he was at it for quite some time .... we're talking a few years of entanglement. Abandoned IP, unused IP etc... is a messy business for now. EDIT: to beat this dead horse even more, whatever moral excuses we give to ourselves to feel better about it (can't pay the original author, the company is no more, collectards are raising the price etc....etc....) keep in mind they are just that, excuses. At least in countries with copyright laws they are. I don't fell too bad about it, for now, but for sure I will be the first one crying my eyes out if someone knocks at my door because of it given the steep consequences if they were to be applied to the full extent. It's nice to have a full romset, it's not nice to have each and every game in it weight as one count against. Finally depending on country having to deal with the legal system can truly be a life changing experience and it makes one appreciate staying out of trouble. Keep in mind that some countries have a corrective attitude embedded in, but some other are just punitive, so play it safe. Just FYI, even buying say the Jap version but playing the local version (US/En/Sp/It or whatever) infringes on the rights of the local distributor/publisher which got to pay the adaptation costs (I know I used this excuse myself for a couple of games I had got to have and rarely ever played [saturn Bomberman comes to mind, never found 4 other friends to play it with]) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercylon Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 The judge scenarios are fun, but I can't imagine any state or federal government taking time and energy to do something so frivolous, at least not without a complaint from a rights holder. If you were doing damage to Exidy or Coleco, they're unlikely to come after you nowadays, because they're dead. Of all the game companies still in operation, only Nintendo seems to actively chase after infringing websites. From what I've seen, they don't sue anyone, they just send threatening legal letters telling you to take down the Mario ROMs. This was more of a curiosity question than anything else just to see what was out there to dump the stuff you already own... I like to tinker. Doesn't look like something I will get to anytime soon. As for the legal issues, of course the downloads are illegal as someone hold the rights, even if they don't really care. But as you said, the chances of someone coming after you are not vey high as it would involve a lot of expense. I suspect the greater risk would be to catch some nasty piece of drive by malware from an ad hosted on those sites more than anything else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatPix Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 Yeah, I don't see the judge buying it: Dude: " ...... but but but, your honor, I dumped them myself, it's gotta count for something!" Judge:" .... so you cannot even say you downloaded them by mistake .... I see!!!" It happened in France when there was a hunt for pirated music. One guy had downloaded most/all of his CD, audio cassettes, vynils, etc. on Internet. He was acquitted on the ground that while the origin of the MP3 might be illegal, the fact to download them for personal use, not sharing them back and owning all of the original support was all very legal. Under French laws, that is. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 So in the end will ROM's help dump the prices? Ok we all know there are thousands of systems out there floating about in peoples collections and closets and storage. And after time there will be failures mechanical and electrical happening on them leaving the need for either fixing or sending to the trash heap. So ROM's and image files will they be able to off set the pricing as they might become more idealistic in a world where more computers can handle the emulation rather than trying to keep a piece of old hardware working?There are already solutions for hardware replacement. System on a Chip clones and HD emulator boxes are pretty craptastic, but we are starting to see botique FPGA hardware projects geared towards serious gamers and collectors. NES came first with Kevtris HDMI add-on and RetroUSB AVS right around the corner, but other systems will soon follow. There will be hardware replacements, both cheap crappy clones for casuals and state of the art quality HD replacements for die hards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhd Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 I'm only permitted to fill half of one garage with shit per the spousal unit - unless I spring for another one. O/T question, but garage or spouse (or both)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flojomojo Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 I don't fell too bad about it, for now, but for sure I will be the first one crying my eyes out if someone knocks at my door because of it given the steep consequences if they were to be applied to the full extent. It's nice to have a full romset, it's not nice to have each and every game in it weight as one count against. I wonder how my hundreds of digital PURCHASES would look in the unlikely event the Software Police came and bashed my door in looking for illegal ROMs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 O/T question, but garage or spouse (or both)? 1st the garage, then the spouse if need be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenixdownita Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 It happened in France when there was a hunt for pirated music. One guy had downloaded most/all of his CD, audio cassettes, vynils, etc. on Internet. He was acquitted on the ground that while the origin of the MP3 might be illegal, the fact to download them for personal use, not sharing them back and owning all of the original support was all very legal. Under French laws, that is. Sure, but I bet no one owns a complete mame set worth of Arcades in his basement or even of ROMS for the systems he plays, a few people do (lucky bastards) but the vast majority does not. By the way I am not trying to dissuade anyone from anything I am just stating a simple fact, that no matter what we want to tell ourselves unless we paid for those ROMS or originals (on any support) we are NOT entitled to having them around. Anything else is just us pretending!!! And I pretend a lot, I even made myself a full set of 7800 repro multicarts .... so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SIO2 Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 I have bought Pac-man, Ms., Jr., hats, shirts, trash cans, bandages, etc. so many times I should be allowed to own anything with a yellow dot on it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 Sure, but I bet no one owns a complete mame set worth of Arcades in his basement or even of ROMS for the systems he plays, a few people do (lucky bastards) but the vast majority does not. My Raspberry Pi MAME cab has over 2000 arcade ROMs on it. Not as if I'm totally going to jail over it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SIO2 Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 (edited) My Raspberry Pi MAME cab has over 2000 arcade ROMs on it. Not as if I'm totally going to jail over it... But if somebody wanted to get together 2000 licenses they could make themselves a hundred bucks a unit less cost of manufacturing and marketing and uhh packaging and shipping. Maybe you want to make some phone calls? Edited July 12, 2016 by SIO2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 But if somebody wanted to get together 2000 licenses they could make themselves a hundred bucks a unit less cost of manufacturing and marketing and uhh packaging and shipping. Maybe you want to make some phone calls? Ready to assemble Porta Pi kits are pricey. The screen alone is over $100. I'd embed a pic of mine but I can't copy image url on a 3DS. DK playing DK: http://stardust4ever.deviantart.com/art/Raspberry-Pi-Arcade-DK-playing-DK-535882030 10.1" HD Woodkits: http://www.retrobuiltgames.com/diy-kits-shop/porta-pi-arcade-wood-kit-10-hd/ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenixdownita Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 My Raspberry Pi MAME cab has over 2000 arcade ROMs on it. Not as if I'm totally going to jail over it... That's not even the point. If you go to a supermarket and you get away by shoplifting half of the goods it doesn't make you go to jail, but it ain't right. Again I don't want to play the devil's advocate as I am with you that I want my games for almost free, screw them copyright holders .... still it does not make it right. You wouldn't pay 1$ per game even you could (I know I wouldn't) because at 2000 it's too expensive and that's where the rubber meets the road. We want all of them but we want them for free (or almost). If there was an end to the copyrights or, like for the Vectrex (if memory serves) the copyright owners decided to donate their rights, then it would be a little easier. It's funny how the crux of the matter has to do with the fact that the price of duplication is virtually zero, zilch, nada, rien, if it costed money to actually duplicate "them roms" (like a real tangible good) then very few people would go to the trouble of having 2K or 20K replicas, a handful for sure but no complete romset For example a CD-R is relatively cheap (well really cheap) and still I don't fathom a complete set of any console!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SIO2 Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 Ready to assemble Porta Pi kits are pricey. The screen alone is over $100. I'd embed a pic of mine but I can't copy image url on a 3DS. DK playing DK:http://stardust4ever.deviantart.com/art/Raspberry-Pi-Arcade-DK-playing-DK-535882030 10.1" HD Woodkits:http://www.retrobuiltgames.com/diy-kits-shop/porta-pi-arcade-wood-kit-10-hd/ Nice kit! I was actually just thinking of the pi and software but I can see that kit would run a lot more. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dripfree Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 I think that the copyright laws are similar to driving laws in a certain sense. Like a cracked tail light, having dice hanging from your mirror, or having a dog on your lap. These are all ticket able offenses. 99 times out of 100 the cops look the other way. When the catch you drunk or speeding your getting nailed for everything. Kinda like now if you get busted selling ps4 bootlegs their gona get you for the C64 stuff too. It's actually 95 years minimum before this stuff becomes public domain. I do think this is good thing, and most people who have created something would agree. Not necessarily to go after every pirate, but to know you still maintain a bit of control over your creation, and even protect its integrity if need be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 That's not even the point. If you go to a supermarket and you get away by shoplifting half of the goods it doesn't make you go to jail, but it ain't right. Again idon;t want to play the devil's advocate as I am with you that I want my games for almost free, screw them copyright holders .... still it does not make it right. You wouldn't pay 1$ per game even you could (I know I wouldn't) because at 2000 it's too expensive and that's where the rubber meets the road. We want all of them but we want them for free (or almost). If there was an end to the copyrights or, like for the Vectrex (if memory serves) the copyright owners decided to donate their rights, then it would be a little easier. It's funny how the crux of the matter has to do with the fact that the price of duplication is virtually zero, zilch, nada, rien, if it costed money to actually duplicate "them roms" (like a real tangible good) then very few people would go to the trouble of having 2K or 20K replicas, a handful for sure but no complete romset For example a CD-R is relatively cheap (well really cheap) and still I don't fathom a complete set of any console!!! Copying is not theft, If I steal, that makes one thing less, Copying makes one thing more, That's what Copies are for... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 DP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenixdownita Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 Copying is not theft, If I steal, that makes one thing less, Copying makes one thing more, That's what Copies are for... As I said, we can tell ourselves whatever stories we want, unless the rightful owner of the rights says it is ok to copy, then it is NOT, even if that means all copies will disappear, he owns the rights and that includes the right to oblivion if he chooses so ... at least according to current laws. Again I thank copies but I feel bad that I HAVE to use them, I will never be rich enough to consider paying even 1$ each. My problem not the copyright laws! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 ^^You do realise I made that post in jest. The cute whimsical video got a number of things wrong. For instance, by copying the bicycle in the skit, what happens to the bicycle company? Thing is these games have been out of production for sometimes 30 years or more. Excepting niche items like plug-n-plays or Virtual Console, there isn't much being done to promote or otherwise make available the IPs. With the exception of Nintendo, many rights holders of IP have gone defunct or dropped the console business. Those that remain such as Sega or Namco, often turn a blind eye. Current demand exceeds supply on many of these classic platforms, leading to speculative trading and other parasitic elements which only serve to erode and fracture the hobby between the haves and have-nots. So whether by physical reproduction, flash carts, or emulation, copies of these old games that are otherwise inaccessible are made available to gamers everywhere, rather than pay exorbitant amounts to resellers for original copies of games. That can't be so terrible. As a general rule, I don't emulate any system DS or newer, but have no qualms downloading full ROMsets for ancient game systems that are no longer supported. It's not like movies where I can just go out and buy my favorite flicks from the 70s, 80s, and 90s, remastered in Hi-Def. The vast majority of games from these time periods are legally inaccessible except through second hand trade. Sure you can play Mario on 3DS or Wii-U or pick up an Atari flashback, but that's barely 1% of what was available to gamers in past generations. So unless someone invents a flux capacitor and figures out how to install it on a Tesla EV, we cannot just rewind time and pick up whatever we want whenever. Emulation is that flux capacitor. If that makes me a pirate, despite my continued support of all new things "retro" (physical homebrew, Virtual Console, plug-n-plays, indie games which celebrate classic genres, etc) so be it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 Well.. Anything that tones down paying exorbitant reseller prices is a good thing. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schizophretard Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 Every time I hear something like,"Copying is like going to a store to shoplift a game." it sounds something like,"Taking the morning after pill is like going to a kindergarten to shoot a kid." If you go to a supermarket and you get away by shoplifting half of the goods it doesn't make you go to jail, but it ain't right. Again I don't want to play the devil's advocate as I am with you that I want my games for almost free, screw them copyright holders .... still it does not make it right. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schizophretard Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 ^^You do realise I made that post in jest. The cute whimsical video got a number of things wrong. For instance, by copying the bicycle in the skit, what happens to the bicycle company? They no longer have a monopoly and have to deal with competition in a free market. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenixdownita Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 If the copyright holder decides to withdraw forever new issues of his products, it's his right, checkout Battle Sphere Gold in the Jag scene, any repro/rom etc.. is illegal, period.What gamers of past gen had available is irrelevant, no matter how you slice it and dice it, you have no right to copy according to current laws.We can argue such rights should be automatic after say 10Y, sure, but as it stands nothing you say short of the permission of the rightful copyright holder (or licensed modern producers like AtGames or PikoInteractive etc...) can change that. By your token everyone should be able to go around in that Ferrari BB512 replica right? It's been out of production for 35Y so now everyone should be able to copy it and resell it or do however it pleases ..... except that it is simply not true. The fact that in videogames the price of copy is virtually zero and suing for 30Y old material almost unheard of does NOT change the core of the matter. You can't copy someone else's work without his permission, period, no matter the intended usage (you don't have to make a profit to violate such a simple law). If the original holder is dead and buried then his estate gets the rights according to succession laws etc...etc... There really is no grey area in this regard unless in those countries where copyrights do not apply obviously. They no longer have a monopoly and have to deal with competition in a free market. Except that they did all the work to get a successful product people want and they should be able to profit from it, if you take away this simple principle then innovation I am afraid would be lost as no one wants to pay the R&D to just be copied the next day. Again we can argue on how long such right should last, but that is a different topic altogether. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bretthorror Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 There are certain instances when I feel bad about playing a rom to a degree. I played Secret of Mana from a rom when I could have bought it digitally for about $8, which would be significantly less than the cart version. However, for games under 10 bucks, which is a lot of them, I don't feel bad because I'd buy the physical cart used, and that'd give the companies no money anyways. My way around - I pay for modern games. I feel I give back to the industry that way and if I take a few bucks out of x company's pocket from old ass games, then I guess that's the way she goes. It's not the fairest trade off, but I feel I am supporting modern video games rather than second hand shops doing it this way. Not to mention, let's say we all DID have to get rid of our emulation get ups, I'd likely just get Steam bundle games dirt cheap and piss around with them rather than the retro cesspool. Not that I visit the library, but if you're hardcore into books or even music and films, you can experience them free through a library and get really deep into what you're passionate about. Video games can't be accessed the same way. I assume the people with full romsets, a decent amount at least, mess around in a different way than the casual person running Zelda in an emulator would. We simply just can't afford every video game out there that we want to try. Be it Pitfall! or Little Samson or an arcade exclusive game. Another problem with emulation is at a certain point, it was all a lot of us had. I know I was burning discs for Dreamcast for 2600, Game Boy, NES and SMS back in the day before virtual consoles were really an option. For a lot of us, it was our only way of playing the old games we loved or always wanted to try at the time. I remember talking with a friend how we thought Wii VC games would be $2 for NES, $3 for SNES and $5 for N64. When the prices were higher, I thought it was pushing it, and when basically none were available at launch, what was I supposed to do? Sit around waiting 4 years for a game to be released? I bought many great PS2 compilations that had 20 - 60 games for under 20 bucks. Suddenly with digital download, the price per old game skyrocketed to ape casuals. I guess that always stuck in my mind in terms of the "value" of these games. I also own tons of games from 2600 to modern, if tomorrow I couldn't emulate, I would just play those games I have rather than buying a thousand more. In 2016, am I gonna buy Wrecking Crew? Give me a break. I'll play it for posterity via emulation for 15 minutes just so I can see what it is, find it's pretty lame, and be done with it. The list of retro games I'm actually gonna shed dollars out for is going to be really short, and that's why I find it easy to emulate. When modern A-AA games are $10 after a year or two... c'mon now. I love retro gaming, but I'm taking those games 9 times out of 10. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skippy B. Coyote Posted July 13, 2016 Author Share Posted July 13, 2016 You can't copy someone else's work without his permission, period, no matter the intended usage (you don't have to make a profit to violate such a simple law). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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