ComputerSpaceFan Posted December 11, 2016 Share Posted December 11, 2016 Still no sign of them anywhere I've looked in Canada. Guess this'll miss my Xmas stocking. 1 Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/254611-atari-flashback-portable/page/32/#findComment-3648586 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted December 11, 2016 Share Posted December 11, 2016 That's ridiculous. Not everyone, including me, has room in the house for a CRT dedicated to gaming. Many of us have to adapt. Or wants something like that monstrosity in the decor. If you want to play classics on modern screens, you'll need to do it through emulation or simulation or recreation. FPGA or SE, take your choice. It has been clear for some time now that old consoles don't work well on new TVs, if they even connect up. FPGA and SE can synthesize game imagery and package it in a format for today's display devices. It is how things are going. Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/254611-atari-flashback-portable/page/32/#findComment-3648614 Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterg74 Posted December 11, 2016 Share Posted December 11, 2016 (edited) Or wants something like that monstrosity in the decor. If you want to play classics on modern screens, you'll need to do it through emulation or simulation or recreation. FPGA or SE, take your choice. It has been clear for some time now that old consoles don't work well on new TVs, if they even connect up. FPGA and SE can synthesize game imagery and package it in a format for today's display devices. It is how things are going. Monstrosity..? You sir, have lost my respect... I'd rather shoot myself in the nuts than openly say I would rather play on a "modern" screen instead of a beautiful PVM CRT... An old console on an lcd screen is the ugliest POS you can ever see... Edited December 11, 2016 by walterg74 Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/254611-atari-flashback-portable/page/32/#findComment-3648670 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillLoguidice Posted December 12, 2016 Share Posted December 12, 2016 Monstrosity..? You sir, have lost my respect... I'd rather shoot myself in the nuts than openly say I would rather play on a "modern" screen instead of a beautiful PVM CRT... An old console on an lcd screen is the ugliest POS you can ever see... I love playing old games on my giant modern TV. If it's either a modern system like a Retro Freak or a system I convert with the XRGB-mini. It looks spectacular. The biggest CRT I still have is a 32" Sony Trinitron. Nice, but a proper modern setup is pretty damned nice as well, with several advantages. 4 Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/254611-atari-flashback-portable/page/32/#findComment-3648674 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted December 12, 2016 Share Posted December 12, 2016 Monstrosity..? You sir, have lost my respect... That's ok. It hurts. I understand. The general public and industry itself have spoken. That's where we're going. But make no mistake, I have a small stable of CRTs like the 1702, and 1084, and a few others. And they are part of my collection. To use them daily? Forget it. An old console on an lcd screen is the ugliest POS you can ever see... Granted that is true. Won't argue there. Years ago I wrestled with that same issue. The solution is to either stick with the old console + old display. Or upgrade the console so it outputs in a format that modern displays accept. I love playing old games on my giant modern TV. If it's either a modern system like a Retro Freak or a system I convert with the XRGB-mini. It looks spectacular. The biggest CRT I still have is a 32" Sony Trinitron. Nice, but a proper modern setup is pretty damned nice as well, with several advantages. XRGB-mini is like an external video upgrade so to speak. It essentially talks to the display in its native language. 1 Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/254611-atari-flashback-portable/page/32/#findComment-3648683 Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterg74 Posted December 12, 2016 Share Posted December 12, 2016 Agree to disagree... any non-crt will never capture the feel of the original, or give the real retro feeling. I guess if you weren't aroundfor those days there's a lot you will never understand or even get... Also, I'm not a collector, I'm a gamer. I can understand folls who don't have them, or no space, sure. But the thought of having CRTs "stored away" and opting to play on something else sends chills down my spine... Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/254611-atari-flashback-portable/page/32/#findComment-3648693 Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterg74 Posted December 12, 2016 Share Posted December 12, 2016 That's ok. It hurts. I understand. The general public and industry itself have spoken. That's where we're going. But make no mistake, I have a small stable of CRTs like the 1702, and 1084, and a few others. And they are part of my collection. To use them daily? Forget Not really sure exactly what would "hurt" (although I'm pretty dure you don't undesrtand), as I'm well aware of the technology trends of the las 20 years... my comment was merely that of someone losing respect for another being part of a retro community and his consideration for the pinnacle of screens for retro consoles/computers.... Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/254611-atari-flashback-portable/page/32/#findComment-3648702 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillLoguidice Posted December 12, 2016 Share Posted December 12, 2016 Agree to disagree... any non-crt will never capture the feel of the original, or give the real retro feeling. I guess if you weren't aroundfor those days there's a lot you will never understand or even get... Also, I'm not a collector, I'm a gamer. I can understand folls who don't have them, or no space, sure. But the thought of having CRTs "stored away" and opting to play on something else sends chills down my spine... Not sure I agree here. While there's some charm in replicating our setups of yore, there were lots of things we put up with back then that we don't have to put up with now. We can create setups now that we would have killed for back then. That to me is making things better, not worse. 5 Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/254611-atari-flashback-portable/page/32/#findComment-3648706 Share on other sites More sharing options...
+MrBlackCat Posted December 12, 2016 Share Posted December 12, 2016 Currently, I can buy CRT's with multiple inputs of Composite, Component, and sometimes S-Video, all day long, for $25... this will come to pass, but for now, I have upgraded all current CRT TV's in use, and have several spares. I am happy with this... when necessary, I will make the move to LCD/Plasma if OLED or another direct display type hasn't taken over by that time. I even play my modern consoles on a CRT TV (WEGA 32") which had an HDMI Port... as well as 6 other independent inputs covering most types. To each his own I suppose. MrBlackCat Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/254611-atari-flashback-portable/page/32/#findComment-3648716 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted December 12, 2016 Share Posted December 12, 2016 (edited) My interest mainly lies in preserving the games and bringing them forward, up and away from the dark ages of the 70's. While, like mentioned, it is charming to play exactly like we did in the old days - I wouldn't want to live a tech lifestyle there. The occasional visit to the past is fine, and that's when I'd pull out the older original displays. But to preserve and continue to make the games available to all means that we have to rely on modern displays fed by modern electronics constructed with contemporary materials and techniques. This means SoC, SE, FPGA, and other non-original non-genuine means. Not that the old way of generating the image and sound is better or worse, but NO ONE IS DOING IT! Nobody is making exact replica VCS hardware. It's all these portables and flashbacks. FPGA and x86 and ARM all running Software Emulators.. Console emulator packs too. Every technique EXCEPT rebuilding the original chips and original mainboards seems to be in use. These modern methods of running the game demands a modern display. And the other way around. Modern displays demand modern hardware. This is a trend that started back in the 1990's, but remained obscure and off the beaten path. Today, digital image generation (of classic games) is everywhere. I think it's for the better. And with continued refinement of flashback/portable devices we're going to be all set. Edited December 12, 2016 by Keatah Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/254611-atari-flashback-portable/page/32/#findComment-3648722 Share on other sites More sharing options...
+pboland Posted December 12, 2016 Share Posted December 12, 2016 Not sure I agree here. While there's some charm in replicating our setups of yore, there were lots of things we put up with back then that we don't have to put up with now. We can create setups now that we would have killed for back then. That to me is making things better, not worse. I've yet to play on a modern flat panel display that does not induce latency when using the older consoles. The latency is added in the analog to digital conversion portion of the tv. It is very noticeable when playing paddle games. Unfortunately, most people no longer have a CRT sitting around to compare to. My wife is a very good "Super Breakout" (2600) player. When I connected my Atari 2600 jr. to my two year old Samsung smart TV she couldn't get her typical scores. I thought she was slipping, until I tried it. As an electronic drummer I am very sensitive to latency (it comes with the territory of electronic percussion). I realized instantly the lag in the controls. She didn't believe me at first until I had her play the same game on my 32" RCA CRT in our family room. As soon as the game started, she looked at me and said "your right"! Her scores were much higher on the CRT than they were on the LCD. It's the same reason that some NES players notice some of there favorite games are much harder to do (like Punch-Out) on a modern TV. Highly timed tricks don't work well when your television induces latency. Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/254611-atari-flashback-portable/page/32/#findComment-3648729 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted December 12, 2016 Share Posted December 12, 2016 I have yet to see a crt/videogame setup today that matches the big-ass Zenith Chromacolor II we used to have in 1977. I don't specifically recall too much interference, or jailbars or sparklies, or anything like that. So the "how I remember it" factor is a big thing. And it's those rose colored glasses made out of nostalgia that cause it. Ohh boy! What you wouldn't have given back in the day for today's display tech! We keep trying to hook up old consoles to new displays and freak out when the result is meh.. Come at it from another angle. Part of eliminating lag is to synthesize the image in a format and language modern displays understand, so there is no time wasted in translation and scaling. This is something an old console can't do. But something modern SoCs, SE, and FPGA do do. Hence their rapidly growing popularity. Flashbacks and Minis are the new way to play the classics. They're already highly desired. And once the quality improves, even more so! Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/254611-atari-flashback-portable/page/32/#findComment-3648741 Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterg74 Posted December 12, 2016 Share Posted December 12, 2016 I have yet to see a crt/videogame setup today that matches the big-ass Zenith Chromacolor II we used to have in 1977. I don't specifically recall too much interference, or jailbars or sparklies, or anything like that. So the "how I remember it" factor is a big thing. And it's those rose colored glasses made out of nostalgia that cause it. Ohh boy! What you wouldn't have given back in the day for today's display tech! We keep trying to hook up old consoles to new displays and freak out when the result is meh.. Come at it from another angle. Part of eliminating lag is to synthesize the image in a format and language modern displays understand, so there is no time wasted in translation and scaling. This is something an old console can't do. But something modern SoCs, SE, and FPGA do do. Hence their rapidly growing popularity. Flashbacks and Minis are the new way to play the classics. They're already highly desired. And once the quality improves, even more so! They're only "highly desired" as collector's items... in this same thread you don't have to go too many posts back to hear the stories of unplayable games and horrific emulation... beside the collection factor (and the novelty/gimmick factors), there's no reason why it would cross my mind to use one of these flashbacks instead of a real 2600 with a harmony cart... Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/254611-atari-flashback-portable/page/32/#findComment-3648766 Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterg74 Posted December 12, 2016 Share Posted December 12, 2016 Not sure I agree here. While there's some charm in replicating our setups of yore, there were lots of things we put up with back then that we don't have to put up with now. We can create setups now that we would have killed for back then. That to me is making things better, not worse. It's not just "charm", the resolution itself, and typical "look" of retro games was meant for CRTs, and just looks awful on a modern tv, not really sure how this is even debateable... if you wanna play your ps4, sure, go nuts... to play a retro console? Yeah, it's definitely worse... Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/254611-atari-flashback-portable/page/32/#findComment-3648767 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted December 12, 2016 Share Posted December 12, 2016 Just as there are several emulators, there are several levels of accuracy. Emulator Stella is very good and is my choice for VCS emulation. It'll even handle a few rare cases of one specific VCS not working with a certain cartridge because of some revision Atari made to the hardware. Someone can refresh me because I forget which ones they are. Wasn't Summer Games one of them? The emulation in the portable was probably deemed good enough by a bean counter or simply the result of a business decision made by someone not totally in touch with the advanced hobbyist. Or they figured the AH is in the minority. like most things today going the extra mile costs as much again as going the first 49. Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/254611-atari-flashback-portable/page/32/#findComment-3648776 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted December 12, 2016 Share Posted December 12, 2016 If you're using your classic console on an LCD you hsould be banned from the planet anyway... I use a tube TV and an ASUS 1080p monitor for my game setup. If it puts out HDMI, it goes to the ASUS monitor. If it puts out composite or RF, it goes to the tube TV. I have no use for Svideo, component, or RGB. That's ridiculous. Not everyone, including me, has room in the house for a CRT dedicated to gaming. Many of us have to adapt. Yeah it's not ideal to hook a classic console up to an HDTV or through a cheap composite -> HDMI upscaler, but everyone's situation is different. Some people lack the space or dislike clutter. Others, especially if they're just getting into games, may not have access to a tube TV. Most thrift stores don't accept them anymore since they can be a liability in some jurisdictions due to eWaste laws. Disposal cost is often greater than the resale value, hence why many people in certain areas Craigslist them for "free". Monstrosity..? You sir, have lost my respect... I'd rather shoot myself in the nuts than openly say I would rather play on a "modern" screen instead of a beautiful PVM CRT... An old console on an lcd screen is the ugliest POS you can ever see... Er, it's passable playing on an LCD, if a bit laggy. I would definitely prefer losing the CRT over taking a nutshot however... Agree to disagree... any non-crt will never capture the feel of the original, or give the real retro feeling. I guess if you weren't aroundfor those days there's a lot you will never understand or even get... Also, I'm not a collector, I'm a gamer. I can understand folls who don't have them, or no space, sure. But the thought of having CRTs "stored away" and opting to play on something else sends chills down my spine... Agree that CRT option is best, but bulky tube TVs are not the only solution to the display issue, and will not be around forever. I can and do on occasion hook my game consoles up to the living room HDTV if I don't want to be confined to the bedroom CRT. Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/254611-atari-flashback-portable/page/32/#findComment-3648870 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted December 12, 2016 Share Posted December 12, 2016 Things that happen slow, like the transition from CRT to LCD (for classic gaming purposes) sometimes go unnoticed until it hits you in the face. Either the CRT blows out, or you want to set-up in the family room that only has a flatscreen. We're all going have to face the transition one way or another. So buy up the remaining frammeisters, upgrade that console to digital, buy the replica with hdmi, configure that emulator! Because itsa coming and you cannot stop it. Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/254611-atari-flashback-portable/page/32/#findComment-3648884 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted December 12, 2016 Share Posted December 12, 2016 But lightguns... 1 Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/254611-atari-flashback-portable/page/32/#findComment-3648915 Share on other sites More sharing options...
atarifan88 Posted December 12, 2016 Share Posted December 12, 2016 Not sure I agree here. While there's some charm in replicating our setups of yore, there were lots of things we put up with back then that we don't have to put up with now. We can create setups now that we would have killed for back then. That to me is making things better, not worse. Nailed it right there. I'll take a clear crisp display on a LCD TV using an emulator on a PC or Raspberry Pi with original controllers then go back to playing on a little CRT with RF interference all over the screen! That's not even debatable... 1 Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/254611-atari-flashback-portable/page/32/#findComment-3648949 Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterg74 Posted December 12, 2016 Share Posted December 12, 2016 Nailed it right there. I'll take a clear crisp display on a LCD TV using an emulator on a PC or Raspberry Pi with original controllers then go back to playing on a little CRT with RF interference all over the screen! That's not even debatable... What's not debateable is your ignorance that RF is not the only connection method to a CRT TV/Monitor... Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/254611-atari-flashback-portable/page/32/#findComment-3648967 Share on other sites More sharing options...
atarifan88 Posted December 12, 2016 Share Posted December 12, 2016 (edited) What's not debateable is your ignorance that RF is not the only connection method to a CRT TV/Monitor... No need to come on here and be hateful. I realize there are other methods of hooking up a game system to a CRT. Just using the RF as an example since the difference in picture clarity is worth going to more modern technology. Lighten up! Edited December 12, 2016 by atarifan88 1 Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/254611-atari-flashback-portable/page/32/#findComment-3648979 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asaki Posted December 12, 2016 Share Posted December 12, 2016 Oh gosh, what have I started??? This argument is getting a little out of hand... While there's some charm in replicating our setups of yore, there were lots of things we put up with back then that we don't have to put up with now. We can create setups now that we would have killed for back then. ...but I am curious about this one. I don't recall having to "put up with" much of anything back then, as far as console videogames + CRT TVs were concerned. If the family TV was occupied, the only spare TV was black & white, and the Atari switchbox wasn't in the best shape. That's about it. I don't know what I would have killed for...the family TV was always pretty large, color, had a nice sharp picture, and I hooked up most of our consoles via composite, with the red and white going to my stereo system B) I'd say that's a pretty killer setup. The only thing I would have killed for back then is netbook computers and backlit Nintendo handhelds, but that has nothing to do with televisions. 10 year old me would totally flip out if you showed him a Game Boy Micro with an EZFlash IV. Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/254611-atari-flashback-portable/page/32/#findComment-3648988 Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterg74 Posted December 12, 2016 Share Posted December 12, 2016 No need to come on here and be hateful. I realize there are other methods of hooking up a game system to a CRT. Just using the RF as an example since the difference in picture clarity is worth going to more modern technology. Lighten up! There's no difference in picture clarity. Old games in an lcd are just lifeless and plain... Take a look at any youtube vid for PVM monitors and RGB connection... Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/254611-atari-flashback-portable/page/32/#findComment-3649004 Share on other sites More sharing options...
atarifan88 Posted December 12, 2016 Share Posted December 12, 2016 Old games in an lcd are just lifeless and plain... That's your opinion not fact. To each their own... 2 Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/254611-atari-flashback-portable/page/32/#findComment-3649007 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillLoguidice Posted December 12, 2016 Share Posted December 12, 2016 Oh gosh, what have I started??? This argument is getting a little out of hand... ...but I am curious about this one. I don't recall having to "put up with" much of anything back then, as far as console videogames + CRT TVs were concerned. If the family TV was occupied, the only spare TV was black & white, and the Atari switchbox wasn't in the best shape. That's about it. I don't know what I would have killed for...the family TV was always pretty large, color, had a nice sharp picture, and I hooked up most of our consoles via composite, with the red and white going to my stereo system B) I'd say that's a pretty killer setup. The only thing I would have killed for back then is netbook computers and backlit Nintendo handhelds, but that has nothing to do with televisions. 10 year old me would totally flip out if you showed him a Game Boy Micro with an EZFlash IV. We put up with fuzzy RF, being tethered by the distance of our cords, small displays, poor ergonomics, etc. Sure, at the time, it was fine because it was all we had and knew, but just like it's hard to go back to non-backlit portables with a healthy dose of motion blur, it's hard to go back to the way things were when we have better ways of experiencing the same stuff. So yes, while I still have an insane assortment of classic monitors and CRTs, I still take every opportunity to upgrade the video output of just about any classic system I have (and I have too many), source a flash-based solution, go wireless, etc. I'm living in 2016, so even though I still love and actively use the old stuff - and can experience it the "old" way whenever I want - more often than not I favor the modern setup for a variety of reasons, including my current tastes and "comfort". 2 Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/254611-atari-flashback-portable/page/32/#findComment-3649061 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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