Minimizing jailbar/vertical lines on 2600?

[rednakes1]

I was going through facebook and someone posted some pics on the atariage page. I noticed what looked like the same lines in this pic of combat (hope the person who posted this doesn't mind). It's hard to tell since it's a photo of a screen but those faint vertical lines all across the screen are exactly what I'm talking about.

 

 

It was either this post or another one on their Facebook page where someone asked about vertical lines.

I was actually going to respond to it and then I forgot. I can't find it anymore.

[rednakes1]

Here are a few instances of vertical lines happening on other consoles, and also mentions how they fixed them. This may give some ideas into what to look for:

 

PC Engine / TurboGrafx:

http://etim.net.au/av-driver/pcebars/

- put decoupling capacitors between power and ground lines at the chip that does the digital to analog conversion (RAMDAC)

 

Famicom:

https://forums.nesdev.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=13150

- Add capacitors or replace capacitors with bigger ones around the video amplifier circuit

 

 

Atari 130XE computer:

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/222906-vertical-bandslines-on-left-side-of-130xe-screen/

 

 

There was also an issue with some Sega Genesis model 1's running RGB video, which required lifting a pin that was used for composite video.

[AtariLeaf]

My issue has always been if this is a sign of hardware failure or simply typical behavior for this hardware like the other consoles/computers you mentioned. Save2600 I believe mentioned that it was nothing to worry about but there's something nagging about these lines.

[rednakes1]

Yeah it bothers me as well, and I'm sure someone knowledgeable can figure it out eventually if they have the resources. The 2600 is not a very complicated hardware. What I'm wondering is whether this is a phenomenon that occurs only on the 4-switchers and not on the 6-switch or Jr.

[+-^CrossBow^-]

You mentioned before that 1 game didn't exhibit them or was very faint while another one did? Could you look at the copyrights on those carts and tell us which is which? I've an interesting hunch about something on this that could just be a hunch but I need you to look and tell me.

[rednakes1]

For my case I'm using a Harmony cart. I have a couple other regular carts that I could try out.

 

EDIT: I just tried 5 regular carts and all have the problem.

Edited November 22, 2016 by rednakes1

[AtariLeaf]

You mentioned before that 1 game didn't exhibit them or was very faint while another one did? Could you look at the copyrights on those carts and tell us which is which? I've an interesting hunch about something on this that could just be a hunch but I need you to look and tell me.

 

I think Bumper Bash (1983) didn't show any lines and a sears arcade pinball (1980) had them fainter than others. It's not just the games but some of the sixers have the lines fainter than others while others are more pronounced but these are all still sixers. The only system with no lines so far is a junior

Edited November 22, 2016 by AtariLeaf

[+-^CrossBow^-]

Wondering if the carts are the issue then? Specifically earlier carts and pretty much all spectravision games have a metal shield over the rom itself on the cart. But I'm not if later released games during the "revival" still have the metal shield over the masked rom. I know not all of them do.

[rednakes1]

Wondering if the carts are the issue then? Specifically earlier carts and pretty much all spectravision games have a metal shield over the rom itself on the cart. But I'm not if later released games during the "revival" still have the metal shield over the masked rom. I know not all of them do.

I would believe that some carts would introduce more static than others but I don't think they are the cause of vertical lines. If you remove the RF shield from a non-modded Atari you will notice some carts are worse (in terms of static, not jailbars) than others, which is probably due to what you said about certain carts.

Edited November 22, 2016 by rednakes1

[Osgeld]

Hate to break it to you all but its a harmonic distortion from all the switch noise which somewhat has to do with pcb layout

 

It also has to do with the electronics of the day and very little with power supply

 

The only way to get rid of it completely is to redesign the pcb layout and a large percentage of the circuit and even buffer out the chips

 

It's a 30 year old console built to the cheapest cost as a toy for late 1970s tv's

Edited November 23, 2016 by Osgeld

[AtariLeaf]

Hate to break it to you all but its a harmonic distortion from all the switch noise which somewhat has to do with pcb layout

 

It also has to do with the electronics of the day and very little with power supply

 

The only way to get rid of it completely is to redesign the pcb layout and a large percentage of the circuit and even buffer out the chips

 

It's a 30 year old console built to the cheapest cost as a toy for late 1970s tv's

 

That seems logical, but I keep coming back to the thought that this isn't more widespread. It seems only a handful of us have machines that exhibit this behavior. It's the reason I assumed there were other causes. When I first noticed it my thought was that it was common but my initial research seemed to indicate that almost no one had ever seen or heard of these lines which made me assume that other factors were at work.

[+RichG1972]

The reason you are seeing the "jailbar" lines is because you have the background so bright it appears charcoal grey like an LCD/LED TV, it's supposed to be almost jet black. I use an easy trick to fix this, on a DVD disc download the image an old fashioned TV test pattern bar and adjust your TV by it, what you do is adjust your COLOR setting down until the colors do not appear to "glow" like they are jumping off the screen, then after that you'll notice there are 3 vertical bars on the black color in the lower right of the test pattern, adjust the TV brightness until you see ONE vertical bar on the black. After this your TV will be adjusted correctly/perfectly and you will no longer see the "jailbars". Attached in this message is the test pattern I calibrate my CRT TV by:

 

[rednakes1]

The reason you are seeing the "jailbar" lines is because you have the background so bright it appears charcoal grey like an LCD/LED TV, it's supposed to be almost jet black. I use an easy trick to fix this, on a DVD disc download the image an old fashioned TV test pattern bar and adjust your TV by it, what you do is adjust your COLOR setting down until the colors do not appear to "glow" like they are jumping off the screen, then after that you'll notice there are 3 vertical bars on the black color in the lower right of the test pattern, adjust the TV brightness until you see ONE vertical bar on the black. After this your TV will be adjusted correctly/perfectly and you will no longer see the "jailbars". Attached in this message is the test pattern I calibrate my CRT TV by:

 

colorbars.jpg

Yeah it shows up more when you have the brightness turned up, but I have this jailbar issue on coloured areas even when the background is pitch black. It happens on both LCD and CRT.

[+RichG1972]

Yeah it shows up more when you have the brightness turned up, but I have this jailbar issue on coloured areas even when the background is pitch black. It happens on both LCD and CRT.

For CRT try this calibration I SWEAR it works every time, and these photos ALSO are while I was using the standard switchbox after spraying some contact cleaner inside the switch on the mechanism itself in the hollow areas and also the rest of the switchbox circuitry......worked like a charm

[+RichG1972]

Some pics above are clearer than others due to lighting conditions and I was using my cellphone for the pics at the time but the difference is clear

[AtariLeaf]

Rich, are you saying you have the lines too if the brightness and contrast are high?

[+RichG1972]

Never said anything about the contrast, just the brightness and color levels

[+RichG1972]

If you are able to see all 3 vertical lines on the bottom right back rectangle the brightness settings are way too high, and if the colors appear like the are glowing neon then they too are too high and need to be backed off or your CRT could fail prematurely

[+RichG1972]

This tutorial will instruct people how to use the SMPTE Color Bars to calibrate your display properly

http://www.4kshooters.net/2015/02/16/display-calibration-using-smpte-colour-bars/

[AtariLeaf]

Didn't work for me, the lines, although fainter, will still show up when a game like asteroids or missile command goes through the burn-in color cycle. Red's and greens or greys will show the lines although fainter.

 

I would be interested to see if anyone who reads this, turn the brightness and or contrast up on your atari connected tv, plug in a game and see if you see any of these jailbar lines. I'm going to guess that most, if not all, users here would not see those lines.

Edited November 25, 2016 by AtariLeaf

[+RichG1972]

Didn't work for me, the lines, although fainter, will still show up when a game like asteroids or missile command goes through the burn-in color cycle. Red's and greens or greys will show the lines although fainter.

 

I would be interested to see if anyone who reads this, turn the brightness and or contrast up on your atari connected tv, plug in a game and see if you see any of these jailbar lines. I'm going to guess that most, if not all, users here would not see those lines.

Are you sure you did it exact to what I said and what the instructional video says to? Because if you are using a CRT the black gets so dark those lines don't exist, an LED or LCD flat screen do not produce a TRUE black so these lines will be prevalent

[+RichG1972]

Sounds to me like your TV may be on its last legs as well

[AtariLeaf]

No the tv's and monitors are fine. Again I keep coming back to this, if it is a brightness setting then every atari owner should see these lines if the brightness is turned up. I doubt it will hurt the tv to turn it up for a couple of minutes to test. I doubt its a matter that everyone else has their brightness and color much lower than I do. My guess is those lines don't exist on anyone elses atari other than myself and rednakes1.

[AtariLeaf]

I do notice that not all games have the lines, I mentioned bumper bash, but also frogger, robot tank, jawbreaker, and some other carts don't seem to have the lines or they are very faint. Oddly seems the worst with atari branded carts like asteroids and missile command which is odd because aren't the early carts the ones with the heaviest shielding?

[Keatah]

Can't really "adjust out" inherent noise. I strongly believe we're looking at capacitor noise. With aged chips and all that, the original filtering might not be enough and now you need new more powerful filtering from when the unit was designed. Just like you need more powerful oil in an older engine.

 

That they worked back in the day, without interference, says the design was sound. But I promise you these weren't intended to last more than a generation or two of consoles. And here we are 40 years later almost..

 

Remember, these are consumer products built with el'cheapo parts that can fall out of tolerance as they age.