Are CRT-style scan lines important to you?

[phoenixdownita]

I think what makes the CRTs still desirable is light-gun games support, some level of blending (when intended by the artist like Sonic transparent waterfall) and artifacting (extra colors not supported by the base hw).

 

Second likely some of the colors were chosen due to the afterglow and particular light they have on a CRT and sometimes the LCD can't match, if it doesn't get too extreme (like the 7800 brown that turns to green on LCD) I'm fine normally, only consoles that I wish packed a better punch in color contrast are the PCE/TG16 and somewhat the SNES, they look washed out more than a Genesis/NeoGeo etc... on my gaming LCD (but it may be the LCD fault as well).

 

Other than that the actual fine strip of black between the lines is not something I particularly recall being so much of a "thing" per se, more of a minor nuisance if you ask me .... yes it was there but I put it on the same vein as the 2 lines smidges on the Trinitorn at 1/3rd and 2/3rd of the screen (afaik they had to have a very small wire from side to side), you can't avoid it and it is not a feature.

[Newsdee]

I love my XRGB-Mini, but it's a gateway drug to getting more physical systems and modding them for better video, just because you can

 

In fact I was very pleasantly surprised when I discovered that even the composite output from my SFC was better (more FPS, less fuzzy) with the XRGB than using my TV's built-in upscaler.

 

Scanlines it depends on the game; I find some Neogeo games are too bright without them. With the XRGB I can toggle them as needed. It can save profiles for quick setup with various consoles, but I haven't bothered to save many yet.

[Asaki]

The more people show me comparison shots that illustrate why scan lines are "better", the more I never want to see them again.

Well you shouldn't be sitting that close to your TV anyway =)

[Nebulon]

Some modern TVs have a nasty delay that can throw your timing when playing retro games. Something to watch out for...

[madhatter667]

I prefer having scans in my older stuff, but I also play most of it on a CRT. No lag, just works. On some emulators, I'll use scanline features, because it looks "right." PS2 and later I'm not as worried, though my PS2 looks pretty nice on my CRT with component video. Top that off with I had only a CRT when it launched... And yep...feels right.

 

I can vouch for new consoles on old displays nets you no bonuses. Lol.

[Schizophretard]

I voted yes but it isn't just the scan lines but all the CRT effects and the CRT's themselves. It all looks better to me than modern TV's. The only major downside I see with CRT's is RF interference but that is more to do with the output of the consoles and all HDTV does is upscale that interference into crystal clear high definition interference. My ideal preference is for retro consoles to have a/v upgrades for them to wow me on a CRT in the same way that DVD did the first time I saw it. However, if RF interference wasn't a thing then I probably wouldn't need wowed just like if VHS didn't have tracking issues and the movies jitter I wouldn't need wowed by DVD.

[keepdreamin]

Some modern TVs have a nasty delay that can throw your timing when playing retro games. Something to watch out for...

 

That's why you do research before buying a tv.

 

www.displaylag.com

http://www.rtings.com/tv/tests/inputs/input-lag

 

Or if you're really dedicated, order the bodnar tester and take it into the big box stores.

[Asaki]

PS2 and later I'm not as worried, though my PS2 looks pretty nice on my CRT with component video.

 

I'm sure I've said this before, but I was pretty disappointed with component video on the PS2. I think Dreamcast, GC/Wii, and original XBox look great in high(er)-def, but PS2 was pretty underwhelming. Most games don't even benefit from it...I have one game that does, Shadow of Colossus, but the framerate drops to very uncomfortable levels.

[mr_me]

I thought colour bleed was a problem on old TVs that needed to be fixed, not a feature. Maybe, rather its the glow of the phosphor vs the more defined LCD pixel?

 

I read about something called composite artifact colours here ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composite_artifact_colors). It's described as some old computers using the limitations of composite video to produce more colours that cannot be displayed with a more accurate RGB signal. That would be good to digitally reproduce because without it those graphics would be lost.

 

Looking at the old graphics on a modern display is definitely different. I find it interesting to see every pixel well defined. Its been mentioned that it is not how the original programmer designed it but I still like to see it that way. I also appreciate that people are creating these digital effects so we can see the graphics as it was originally designed.

 

I notice the that the MAME Intellivision emulator looks blurry. I don't know why that is but I prefer to use the fully pixelated jzIntv.

[phoenixdownita]

I read about something called composite artifact colours here ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composite_artifact_colors).

Check this out:

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/204355-artifacting-isnt-it-weird/page-2?do=findComment&comment=2624664

[keepdreamin]

I wonder what the results of this poll would be if instead it was asked in '86 of NES owners would they want their games looking sharp like the labels depict, or what their tv could actually do.

[Schizophretard]

I wonder what the results of this poll would be if instead it was asked in '86 of NES owners would they want their games looking sharp like the labels depict, or what their tv could actually do.

 

Back then if they said they want their games sharp and then you provided them a TV with composite and showed them what the composite output did then they likely would think it does look as sharp as the labels depict because they wouldn't have HDTV to compare it to and it would look much more sharp to them compared to their cable/broadcast TV and VCR through RF. As a side note to that, I believed the SEGA Genesis' claim that it had high definition graphics and that was just through RF. The first time I saw and even learned of the Genesis was at a neighbor's house. They were playing Sonic and up to that point it was the most amazing thing I ever seen. I begged for it, got it, and played it so much my hands would be in the air pressing buttons because I would be playing Sonic in my dreams. My parents bought me a small TV for it to put in my room and it looked great which brings me to another point. Back then TV's were smaller and games were often played on the even smaller TV's in kids' bedrooms. There is a kind of "upscaling" appearance that makes games look sharper on small TV's because the pixels are smaller instead of blow up on a big screen.

[phoenixdownita]

... The only major downside I see with CRT's is RF interference but that is more to do with the output of the consoles and all HDTV does is upscale that interference into crystal clear high definition interference.....

AFAIK the last of the consoles still on RF "only" were the 8bits, already Genesis and SNES had composite (and RGB), there's no RF interference per se as the signal is in baseband and not modulated.

Even some on the 8bits (SMS) supported composite right away (SMS2 didn't but that was just nasty imho).

 

If you refer in general to any kind of analog interference then no matter what connection you attempt (even RGB) has a chance to pick up EM noise along the way and really only native HDMI consoles (PS3/360 onward) can solve that being digital at the origin.

[keepdreamin]

 

Back then if they said they want their games sharp and then you provided them a TV with composite and showed them what the composite output did then they likely would think it does look as sharp as the labels depict because they wouldn't have HDTV to compare it to and it would look much more sharp to them compared to their cable/broadcast TV and VCR through RF. As a side note to that, I believed the SEGA Genesis' claim that it had high definition graphics and that was just through RF. The first time I saw and even learned of the Genesis was at a neighbor's house. They were playing Sonic and up to that point it was the most amazing thing I ever seen. I begged for it, got it, and played it so much my hands would be in the air pressing buttons because I would be playing Sonic in my dreams. My parents bought me a small TV for it to put in my room and it looked great which brings me to another point. Back then TV's were smaller and games were often played on the even smaller TV's in kids' bedrooms. There is a kind of "upscaling" appearance that makes games look sharper on small TV's because the pixels are smaller instead of blow up on a big screen.

 

I'm basically asking if you were able to drag a HDTV back in time with say a Hi-Def NES, do you think people would think it looked way better than playing on a CRT? I think they would.

[phoenixdownita]

<Deleted>

I don't think anything that involves "what if" and "traveling back in time" leads to anything.

</Deleted>

[MrMaddog]

To me, it's about what we were used to when playing games at the time if it's an old arcade game or the bedroom TV. That's what I try to replicate with my own emulated games...

 

Of course back then we wanted to have better sharper displays. Best at the time was S-Video which not all TV's had sad to say even though the display was sharper through color seperation as oppose to better resolution. And also RGB monitors were even better, I had one for my Atari ST and was envious of Europeans for having the SCART format. Imagine if RGB monitors were available for North American Genesis owners in the 90's...

 

When I first started using emulators on my SVGA monitor though I was disappointed with the straight up pixlized look. I realize it's how computers saw the way the games were rendered, but still it felt like something was lost compaired to playing on real hardware. But still without having that real stuff (due to lack of money & space) around it was the best I can do.

 

I agree with one poster that CRT overlays are better than just using scanlines. One of these days I'll get a RetroArch setup going... And as for the emulated games I played on my Xbox, I found using scandlines AND smoothing makes the display look closer to what arcade games looked like. Only one of each looks bad and if I can't use both then I'll just not bother with using filters (not that's on a HD display I view from a distance as opposed to being close up to a PC monitor).

Edited September 15, 2016 by MrMaddog

[MotoRacer]

I'm an "other" voter. I prefer 480p EDTVs. You get the thinner display of modern sets, with the sharp detail of a crt. Cry scanlines honestly make me queezy these days. With the rise of better displays it's hard to go back to the bright and blurry crts of back in the day. I see what people call "advantages" of the scan lines, but they personally make me a little sick.

 

Hdtvs stretch out the image too much. The picture is blurry and you also have to deal with the 16:9 aspect ratio.

 

Emulation's scanlines just feel overpowering to me. They don't look natural and I find them to limit the colors and brightness on screen, and they're a major distraction.

 

So yeah, that's my thoughts. Plus, I personally see 'separation' on my screen. Not scan lines per say, but it's not flat blocks of color like on an hdtv. It's a happy medium.

 

Edtvs are going to be rare one day, I feel, especially if you don't have space for a crt and want progressive scan. Not many were made and the good ones are difficult to track down. I never feel the display looks like the 'lifeless' flat color blocks of an hdtv. For me it's the best bet.

[Keatah]

Emulation's scanlines just feel overpowering to me. They don't look natural and I find them to limit the colors and brightness on screen, and they're a major distraction.

 

This is very true. Every emulator author has overestimated the strength and intensity. And they look lousy. A wal-mart-y cheapie effect. Most are so strong they make vertical moire. And reduce brightness. It's just plain old tacky. And they don't look anything like a VCS on a Zenith Chromacolor II or RCA ColorTrak.

 

So I turn them off too.

 

A few emulators do let you change their intensity, so then I set them at 5% or 10% for a bit of flavoring. A fine seasoning of herbs. In Stella VCS emulator I have them set at like 6%. You can hardly see them, just like in real life.

Edited September 16, 2016 by Keatah

[Schizophretard]

AFAIK the last of the consoles still on RF "only" were the 8bits, already Genesis and SNES had composite (and RGB), there's no RF interference per se as the signal is in baseband and not modulated.

Even some on the 8bits (SMS) supported composite right away (SMS2 didn't but that was just nasty imho).

 

If you refer in general to any kind of analog interference then no matter what connection you attempt (even RGB) has a chance to pick up EM noise along the way and really only native HDMI consoles (PS3/360 onward) can solve that being digital at the origin.

 

After rereading my post I think I may have said it in an odd way that didn't convey my meaning. What I was trying to say is that the only major downside I see with CRT's was the interference caused by the RF only consoles you are referring to, consoles that had better alternatives but many of us didn't use them and/or know about them and just used the included RF cable, RF only CRT's, RF only CRT's with no coaxial input, RF switch boxes, and so forth that lead to many games being played with interference and static. Then when you bring that downside to HDTV it makes it worse by making the interference more clear because it is upscaled and pixel perfect like everything else while at the same time taking away the things from CRT's that I don't see as downsides.

 

What I meant by not needing wowed by a/v upgrades if RF interferences wasn't a thing is that I view the elimination of dot crawl, color bleed etc, as just bonuses but the main reason they are my preference is because they get rid of that RF interference. In other words, if RF interference was never a thing like somehow every console through RF was as interference free as that one TV station that you could always adjust the rabbit ears just right to have no static, wavy lines, the signal came in strong, etc. then a/v mods and/or using better already available options with a better CRT would only feel like wants instead of needs.

 

 

I'm basically asking if you were able to drag a HDTV back in time with say a Hi-Def NES, do you think people would think it looked way better than playing on a CRT? I think they would.

I don't really see the difference of me seeing HDTV with a Hi-Def NES that was brought to me in the past and me coming to the present from the past to see the same thing because I would be able to compare the two either way and come up with the same preference. Besides, in a way, your bringing back an HDTV to 86' kind of happened but was a different year. I was playing my retro consoles all they way up to my PS2 on one of my CRT's that I still have and then HDTV came on the scene. Then I got a PS3 for Christmas and my younger brother surprised me with my first HDTV because he refused to allow me to play it on my CRT. I hooked them both up and thought it looked great. I expected the same from my retro consoles but after hooking them up I didn't think they looked way better but thought they looked like emulators with that MS Paint look. Also, I formed this opinion before reading similar opinions on places like here because since I was surprised with an HDTV instead of planning on getting one I had no reason to look up on how retro consoles look on them. So, it wasn't like I was influenced by others in any way to form this opinion but independently formed an opinion shared by others. Therefore, I don't think it is our minds playing tricks on us or something but some of us really do think that CRT's look better.

[Schizophretard]

I'm an "other" voter. I prefer 480p EDTVs. You get the thinner display of modern sets, with the sharp detail of a crt.

There are also 480p enhanced definition CRT TV's.

[Andromeda Stardust]

Check this out:

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/204355-artifacting-isnt-it-weird/page-2?do=findComment&comment=2624664

Seems the artifacting varies from one unit to the next. I wonder if this has more to do with hardware revisions or component drift. That purple on the XEGS is epic though...

 

I need to play Tower Toppler through my HD Sanyo and see if it freaks out.

[phoenixdownita]

Seems the artifacting varies from one unit to the next. I wonder if this has more to do with hardware revisions or component drift. That purple on the XEGS is epic though...

....

What happens there are the effects of the components past CTIA/GTIA, add a capacitor or an inductor here and there and you influence the phase of the spectral components -> change the delay -> change the artifact color.

 

Tower Toppler on 7800 changes a lot depending on the connection, if you have RF or composite only you wouldn't see the issue (and it looks like vertical bands): [this is how it looks emulated or over SVideo]

 

the game instead looks like this (over composite):

 

[bTW something's not right with the video, the timer is too slow (I wonder if it is a 50Hz/60Hz thing, at 60Hz I can tell you it's brutal)]

[Andromeda Stardust]

What happens there are the effects of the components past CTIA/GTIA, add a capacitor or an inductor here and there and you influence the phase of the spectral components -> change the delay -> change the artifact color.

 

Tower Toppler on 7800 changes a lot depending on the connection, if you have RF or composite only you wouldn't see the issue (and it looks like vertical bands): [this is how it looks emulated or over SVideo]

 

the game instead looks like this (over composite):

 

[bTW something's not right with the video, the timer is too slow (I wonder if it is a 50Hz/60Hz thing, at 60Hz I can tell you it's brutal)]

I would always keep getting knocked way back and the timer would expire!

[0078265317]

Scan lines are only important if I want to play me some duck hunt.

[+sramirez2008]

I do like scan lines in my pre-HD era games, because that's how I grew up with those games looking and they don't look quite right to me without them. More importantly though I'm a huge fan of console light gun games and there's just no way to play most of them without a CRT TV. That makes sticking with CRTs for retro gaming kind of a no-brainer for me, since I can't play a lot of my favorite games without them.

 

I'm with Jin. I like the way the games look and want to be able to play Alien Brigade for as long as possible. I'll move my Heavy Sixer to the assisted living facility, should it ever come to that.